The founding Fathers knew US Government would eventually become tyrants

I dont need to show any sources for this, it's all in the constitution.

They understood that the constitution is not bullet proof, nor is it politician proof.

They knew full well that there were dark days ahead. It is the natural progression of hundreds of years of governing that corruption would slip in and eventually and spread.

"The beauty of the second amendment is that it wont be needed, until they try to take it away."

The constitution itself is destructible, but the idea that it presented to the whole world is immortal and indestructible.

Its not their fault that a government becomes corrupt, they didn't set it up that way intentionally, they knew that there was no way of preventing tyranny in the long run.

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants. It is it’s natural manure."- Thomas Jefferson

Trust me they knew this and they did pave the way for future generations. Its all written in the constitution.

Further, there are certain stops in the wording of the bill of rights and constitution that ensures that tyranny does not win in the end. By the time those people trying to dismantle it become finished, they will run into more and more problems, they will never reach their goal 100%.

Thats the beauty of the constitution.

if the constitution has lead to the state america is in now, how is it a great document.

i would call it failed. it has lead to great things, but has allowed even greater failure.

it has to be tweaked, but as long as americans continue to act like its untouchable, mistakes will never be corrected.

it is meant to be a living document, it has remained relatively untouched since the 18th century.

reply to post by thehoneycomb



Today the US is a democracy. Didn't your forefathers decide on a republic?
Where the government is restricted by law.

So is it not unconstitutional and illegal that your government is a democracy? Why do all Americans fight so hard to preserve democracy when it is not what your forefathers wanted for you?

reply to post by randomname

if the constitution has lead to the state america is in now, how is it a great document.

i would call it failed. it has lead to great things, but has allowed even greater failure.

it has to be tweaked, but as long as americans continue to act like its untouchable, mistakes will never be corrected.

it is meant to be a living document, it has remained relatively untouched since the 18th century.

The Constitution hasn't been followed!!!! Corrupt politicians have implemented laws to circumvent the Consitution!!!

So who failed! It certainly wasn't the Constitution, but the asleep American public who has put their faith in the criminals who occupy Washington DC!!

reply to post by thehoneycomb

Great timely thread and I couldn't agree more. The very same thing that makes the Constitution truly great and a single document which has remained relevant for 2 centuries is what has also led to our nation being in such a mess.

For all the lofty rights and ideals, the Constitution also demands something in return if we'd all like to keep a good life with freedom. Vigilance and Personal Responsibility for the political leadership elected to govern in our name.

The Constitution certainly isn't broken or even in much need of updating or corrections...if any. The people it was written to serve are the part of the system that broke...and ceded the game by default in a pity party flowing with apathy. They, the Founders, even warned us in clear terms that it would happen too. If we stopped caring, others damn sure WOULD care and would gleefully take what we came to take for granted. It's happening...but the document is as good to solve the problems as not caring about it was for creating them.

Originally posted by spy66
reply to post by thehoneycomb

 

Today the US is a democracy. Didn't your forefathers decide on a republic?
Where the government is restricted by law.

So is it not unconstitutional and illegal that your government is a democracy? Why do all Americans fight so hard to preserve democracy when it is not what your forefathers wanted for you?

How can government be restricted by law when politicians are able to amend and create these laws at will? It just takes for parties to be bought off by private interests and united in a single agenda to reach the state were in today: fascism. Democracy or republic, when unrestricted capitalism is allowed, corporatism (fascism) is inevitable.

Where is Marat and Robespierre when we need them? LOL

reply to post by thehoneycomb



“Well, Doctor, what have we got—a Republic or a Monarchy?”

“A Republic, if you can keep it.”

-- attributed to Benjamin Franklin, as he left Independence Hall after the close of the Constitutional Convention of 1787,

It is obvious. They knew that it was up to us to fight for it. Instead, we are fighting for oil and world supremacy.

Recall that much of our early history was about if we should be more or less isolationish. About if we should seek any Imperialism. Obviously we have made many, many wrong choices along the way.

reply to post by bigfatfurrytexan


Be that as it may. Only about 3% fought for and believed in the ideals represented in the constitution. Most people would not fight for it no less lay down their lives for it.

reply to post by bigfatfurrytexan


hey fellow Texan, Mckinney here....you have so many stars, that I clicked on yours to try and get a bunch for me.....it just gave you another.....

Originally posted by bigfatfurrytexan
reply to post by thehoneycomb

 

“Well, Doctor, what have we got—a Republic or a Monarchy?”

“A Republic, if you can keep it.”

-- attributed to Benjamin Franklin, as he left Independence Hall after the close of the Constitutional Convention of 1787,

It is obvious. They knew that it was up to us to fight for it. Instead, we are fighting for oil and world supremacy.

Recall that much of our early history was about if we should be more or less isolationish. About if we should seek any Imperialism. Obviously we have made many, many wrong choices along the way.

While I agree with part of your opinion, where have we "fought for oil" and "world supremacy?"

America is great because it IS supreme. Period. Find me another country better.

And are you going to say we went to Iraq for Oil? Show me where we took ONE DROP of oil, paid for or stolen.

reply to post by phantomjack


You know, I have to agree and keep asking the same thing. Now 1991...THAT was a good old fashioned war for oil and oil we got. Rivers of it. I paid under $1 a gallon for diesel and gas both for most of the 1990's and can never forget one of the images of my 'personal' 9/11 in seeing $1.89/gl prices at a Petro in Northern Illinois that night. My truck had a couple hundred gallons on-board at the time that I'd paid 0.89 cents a gallon for in Georgia. The contrast...well, it's one of those moments one never forgets. 1991 kept it cheap that long tho!

So, like you say, if Iraq was a war for oil, why have I been paying $2.50 to over $4 a gallon on and off since the war began and even leaving the place has done nothing but cost more and leave nearly a trillion in war bills we're paying for generations. Heck...their oil infrastructure at least worked well when we arrived. We left it in shambles....

I'm feeling a bit screwed if that was a war for oil. Tyranny can be sheer, outright and dangerous incompetence coupled with personal delusions of grandeur. I think we've had a couple different leaders in recent times that fall squarely in that. General Washington would commit some pretty major crimes within a day of seeing what his nation has become, I'm thinking.

Originally posted by randomname
if the constitution has lead to the state america is in now, how is it a great document.

i would call it failed. it has lead to great things, but has allowed even greater failure.

it has to be tweaked, but as long as americans continue to act like its untouchable, mistakes will never be corrected.

it is meant to be a living document, it has remained relatively untouched since the 18th century.

edit on 4-10-2012 by randomname because: (no reason given)

The one thing not expected is when a super-majority of leaders AND a super-majority of citizens together turn away from conscience of right and wrong universal in every person and instead pander to their own ego's thirst for the sensualities. They never thought there would be such a turn away from Providence as the life-Source to the marrow of a man's soul. Yet they knew the terrible fate of Sodom and Gomorrah and knew the Master would render such a populace their dues. We enter those gates soon.

reply to post by thehoneycomb


I would love to deny ignorance here but unfortunately I'm from the UK and don't know what your 2nd amendment is!

Please assist and give a source showing it so that I can learn from your thread.

Thanks in anticipation...

The problem with the whole Republic thing is rooted in its usurpation in 1913 (coincidentally when the Federal Reserve was created) when the 17th amendment was passed (some say illegally) effectively removing any representation of the States in the balance between the rights of the people, the rights of the States and Federal rights.

The Congressmen or representatives were to fight for the interest of the people as they were popularly elected, the Senators at the time represented the interest of the States as they were appointed by the various State legislatures rather than popular vote thus they were above having to pander to the people for their office.

They could also just be relived or recalled by the Governor of the State if he felt they were not representing the States interests.

The POTUS while popularly elected through the people and the apportionment of the Electoral College votes is still beholden to the mob for support and must pander the public to get elected much like the the Representaives in Congress.

So after that amendment the States rights have steadily degraded as they have no representation of their interests at the big table. What we have is a farcical Republic all three levels of which the politicians must pander to the mob mentality. There is no balance in representation of the wishes of the various States. It’s a Republic in name but a Democracy in practice IMO.

Double Post
Howzat Happen So Often

reply to post by RelSciHistItSufi


Gladly sir! Dont they have google in the UK?




A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.

By all means though, if you have any other questions feel free to ask.
Thanks for participating!

en.wikipedia.org...

reply to post by Wrabbit2000


Wrabbit -- I dont think the first Iraq war gave us oil. I dont recall that being the case. Instead, what drove down the cost of oil was the stability of the oil market, not an increase in supply.

The US government didn't take any oil from Iraq, and I would be willing to bet that as a fact. And, if any Oil was taken, it would have been by the multinational oil companies. I dont even think we used any oil while we were in country, to refuel our troops.

I strongly agree with you on the other issues, and when we are paying $7 bucks a gallon for gas, we are ALL going to be suffering. That is for sure!

reply to post by Golf66


One thing though:

The POTUS while popularly elected through the people and the apportionment of the Electoral College votes is still beholden to the mob for support and must pander the public to get elected much like the the Representaives in Congress.

...in so far as the POTUS is ELIGIBLE to be president, based on the very same constitutional laws.

I won't mention any (Obama) names

reply to post by phantomjack


We have alot here. But first the dollars going to crash! It would be a good idea for everyone to start saving the silver coins issued before 1974. I have a feeling thats when things really started to go wrong in this country.

Originally posted by thehoneycomb
I



Its not their fault that a government becomes corrupt, they didn't set it up that way intentionally, they knew that there was no way of preventing tyranny in the long run.

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants. It is it’s natural manure."- Thomas Jefferson

Trust me they knew this and they did pave the way for future generations. Its all written in the constitution.



Thats the beauty of the constitution.

edit on 4-10-2012 by thehoneycomb because: (no reason given)

Unfortunately the original Confederate constitution was patterned after the 1787 US Constitution which itself was a repudiation of the whole revolutionary war effort against British dominance.
Constitutions are quite unnecessary unless a people surrender all their sovereignty to a government in which case restraints are seemingly necessary to keep that government from ending the people's liberties.
The primary mistake with any government is to rely on the democratic process, for by one's vote one surrenders one's sovereignty to those for whom one votes.
Any government, and there have been many around the world which have patterned their organizations on the US Constitution, is doomed to failure as far as freedom is concerned.
This is from the people's point of view. "All organizations are organized for the benefit of the organizers."
From the government point of view government is always a success until it self-destructs from its own internal rot and corruption. Under a government's dominance, there can be no such thing as a "sovereign freeman."