4 girls dragged kicking/screaming onto aircraft after Australian judge rules they return to father

Originally posted by Kryties
If the evidence were in Italy and she feared for her safety in returning to get it then it would be reasonable to assume she was incapable of providing evidence for other reasons than just that she didn't have any.

There is no evidence that she is in fear of her safety if she returns to Italy. No one, as far as I am aware, has suggested that except you.

She however is in fear of being prosecuted for child abduction if she returns to Italy. The father has agreed to not prosecute her if she returns to Italy.

Originally posted by Kryties

Man, woman - doesn't matter. I have pointed this out 3 times already and am starting to get a little annoyed that you seem to be completely ignoring that fact. Are you ignoring this deliberately? Or are you just incapable of reading properly?

So you have a propensity to believe men/women who accuse their spouse of violence?

One thing I have learned is that in the court room, pretty much everyone is lying, or at least not telling the truth. Except the judge. He just sits and hears lies all day.

And he knows it.

Originally posted by Kryties
But, by all means, ignore all this and try to claim I am being sexist again - kgo.

I never claimed you are sexist. I merely questioned whether you would be so insistent that accusations of abuse by the mother, who has an axe to grind, were true if the positions were reversed.

It isn't an unreasonable question considering your unflinching stance that the father is an abuser despite the mother having made those allegations in court but the Australian judge stating that she had seen no evidence to support them.

Maybe there is more to this case than meets the eye but I see no good reason to believe so.

The mother clearly violated the law and put the children into this predicament, she is the law breaker/kidnapper. To leave the children with her simply because it’s easier (right now) for the children is a great injustice to all, including the children. The children have a right to both parents as both parents have a right to know and raise their children. What a selfish act to steal away a child from a mom or a dad. All emotional pain caused to these children falls and the mom’s hands. Hopefully someday the children come to realize this, it will help them in their healing process.

Imagine if all separated parents around the world would just up and leave to another county or state. Would this be acceptable? And after a long two year legal battle no child is going to want to return to the now stranger/bad guy parent. Not after being isolated from their father for two years and surly manipulated by their mother during this time I’m sure she has turn them against him. The only way to fix a problem like this is to return the children to the isolated parent and give the children lots of therapy. It’s sad that these kids are stuck in the middle but mom is to blame.

As for the accusation of abuse, was it reported prior to them running away to another country? Was therapy tried? It sounds to me like the father was the disciplinarian as is the case in most families. If his discipline was out of line was he given a chance and the tools to correct it? Sounds to me like it’s just an excuse used to justify the mother’s decision to kidnap the children to another country.

Lastly no country in this world would turn over a child to another country if it felt the child was in danger. By turning over the children to Italy, Australia has lost all control of the case. Something courts don’t like to do. Courts always want to hold onto control as long as possible. There had to be mitigating and aggravating reasons for this case to end this way.

reply to post by ollncasino


I have stated multiple times that I am discerning my opinion from what I have seen and read of the case - and I have come to my own conclusion based on that and that alone.

In case you haven't noticed, I have also been careful in the way I structure my posts, leaving the door open for the possibility that I am wrong - as is evidenced by the fact that I keep repeating that we shall have to await the court case in Italy to know anything further.

Originally posted by ladyteeny

Originally posted by ollncasino

Originally posted by Sublimecraft

Although I agree that the law is the law, this, like many other instances is upsetting because the girls are the ones copping the brunt of their parents inability to resolve their differences and hence be separated.

Once again the children suffer the most

While the mother's selfishness is understandable, she has put her own interests before that of her children.

in view of his apparent aggression i'd say she's putting the interests of her children first. and given they are all old enough to be consulted in the matter i think this is a disgusting state of affairs.

This is the thing. Judges are known to make hideous decisions with abuse cases. But by 12 years of age, it doesnt matter that much what mommy or daddy want, its the kids decision that counts. And even if there is one under 12, they do not break up families.

Because of horrible things like this, and because children cannot be abandoned or betrayed by the systems, then I also would be vigilante. You go the legal route first, bit if its an evil judge, then you do the right thing.

What I would do, is ensure those kids know who to contact, and I'd have several contacts, and they'd be able to escape, and be smuggled back out. They would be instructed to run away, as many times as it takes to get away.

Because if the abuse is there, they themselves would know. If the Father was better with the kids than with mom, like in some cases, then maybe they want to get to know their dad. But they shouldn't be forced to at this age.

Having an abusive parent can be permanently traumatizing, I hope they do the right thing if he is abusing them...

I've followed court cases for years, and it's really odd. Usually they're with mom, but why is it in the most abuse cases, the judge forces kids with their abusive parent? Corrupt system? The corrupt groups at the top help each other out? Because it is quite typical in abuse cases for dad to force his access or rights. I remember one case where the judge insisted he have access. And the mother knew how dangerous he was. This was in Canada. She fought hard for that boys protection, but the judge betrayed them all right on schedule, they seem to do that alot. The guy picked up his boy for a court ordered access, took him out in the woods, and killed him.

My kids are always instructed to get away from crapola and come home, and the gov, courts are servants of the people, but often they're just criminals. They don't empower me. I don't rob, murder, kill, rape, etc etc. I don't even speed and drive watching everyone else. I don't drink and drive. They don't own me. Bad decisions are criminal to me. I would never obey a criminal court betraying children.

In this case, those children were too old for any judge, even in a neutral case, where there was no abuse, to be dragged anywhere. And they wouldnt just send the 9 year old back. It would be up to the children.

Originally posted by ollncasino


The father has actually been gracious enough to agree to not lay criminal charges, if the mother returns to Italy to contest child custody

Gracious? You certainly are very trusting of someone you don't know. I don't what is going on here, except to say you seem to the think the mother is the only one manipulating this. Don't be silly, He is too and he's got his reasons for not wanting charges pressed. They may not be what you think.

Originally posted by antonia

Gracious? You certainly are very trusting of someone you don't know. I don't what is going on here, except to say you seem to the think the mother is the only one manipulating this. Don't be silly, He is too and he's got his reasons for wanting charges pressed. They may not be what you think.

Actually, after some additional research, I discovered that the Australian judge pressed him to undertake to not prosecute the mother, now or in the future, as part of the agreement to return the children to Italy.

This was to allow the mother to go to Italy to fight for custody.

I'm not sure how binding that agreement would be. To the best of my knowledge, Australia has no jurisdiction to prevent or demand that an Italian is barred from prosecuting an Australian for something that is a crime in Italy (even though committed in Australia), in an Italian court.

In addition, it could be argued that the undertaking was obtained under duress.

He may prosecute her yet.

reply to post by ollncasino


Then let him, my point is you seem to be rather trusting of someone you don't know yet you ding those who support the mother. You are no different.

reply to post by antonia


I think it is more due to all the known evidence backing the father's story, and none backing the mother's.

Yet, so many are very quick to question the father, not the mother.

Pretty typical for ATS and most western MSN.

The only people that have the majority of the facts have both sided with the father (Italian and Australian judges), and that says a lot.

Do courts make mistakes? Of course. Is that the majority of the courts decisions? Not even close.

As one poster has already pointed out if the genders were reversed, half this thread would be guarantees of death to the father.

Originally posted by antonia

Then let him, my point is you seem to be rather trusting of someone you don't know yet you ding those who support the mother. You are no different.

Actually, the Australian family law judge 'dinged' the mother for courting publicity with the case and pointed out that the mother was unable to lay evidence to support her allegations that he was abusive.

Furthermore, the court found the children has initially wanted to return to Italy after she abducted them and only later expressed a wish to stay in Australia after the mother told them she couldn't return to Italy for fear of prosecution.

abc.net.au

You appear to rather trusting of a women who has made scurrilous allegations she is unable to prove yet you 'ding', as you put it, those who support the wronged father who has suffered two years of mental and financial strain fighting through a foreign legal system to merely get his kids back.

Kids that were awarded to him by an Italian family court.

I wonder if you would defend the abducting parent if the roles were reversed and an Australian mother with custody was fighting to get kids back from an Italian father through the Italian court system?

I think the reactions of the girls SPEAKS louder than words.

Originally posted by ollncasino

You appear to rather trusting of a women who has made scurrilous allegations she is unable to prove yet you 'ding', as you put it, those who support the wronged father who has suffered two years of mental and financial strain fighting through a foreign legal system to merely get his kids back.

I have made no statement of support or condemnation for either party. If you are reading that it's because you want to. Nothing I have said can be interpreted as support for either party. I am simply stating you are doing exactly what you chide others in this thread for doing.

Originally posted by antonia

I have made no statement of support or condemnation of either party. I am simply stating you are doing excatly what you chide other in this thread for doing.

I wholeheartedly and unashamedly support the father and 'chide', as you put it, those who support a child abducting mother.

So do the Italian and Australian courts

He was the parent who was awarded custody while the mother abducted the children and laid allegations of abuse that she is unable to substantiate, according to the Australian judge, against the wronged party.

Of course I support him.

Originally posted by infowarrior9970
I think the reactions of the girls SPEAKS louder than words.

Actually no.

The Australian court found that the four children had initially expressed a desire to return to Italy when first abducted and only expressed a desire to stay in Australia later, after the mother had told them she feared returning to Italy in case she was prosecuted.

abc.net.au

I certainly hope they are not being abused and only being "brainwashed" children who don't want rules and would rather be with the cooler parent. I will follow this story and hope for the best. 

reply to post by ChaoticOrder


Children know what they want, not what they need. And obviously can easily be manipulated. Also, I think you meant to say when a woman trash talks her ex, it doesnt invalidate her childrens love for him(you said her). That is the manipulation people are getting at here, and it surely is true. If you live with one parent, especially at such young ages, and they constantly talk bad about the other parent, just like everything a parent does, it is going to rub off.

Originally posted by detachedindividual
reply to post by ollncasino

 

Hang on...

The mother ran and took her kids to protect them, after all, they were "in hiding" with their Grandmother.
And that brings up something else, obviously the mother and Grandmother are in Australia.

The judge even says that he DOESN'T TRUST the father, and believes that he has lied. But he still sent the kids home to him, against their will!

This is a messed up situation, but based on all of that, I would be ruling that the kids stay with their mother. I don't care if you think the kids are too young to decide, at 9 an up I don't believe they are too young. They can be asked, and they can give an answer. They obviously wanted to stay with their mother, and IMO that should be the end of the story.

Exactly. And- the girls are old enough to know if they were hit and abused by their father two years prior. The oldest is fourteen. To manipulate four girls into believing they had been physically abused when they really hadn't been would be truly miraculous skills on the mother's part.

reply to post by ollncasino


The kids don't care what is legal.. they want to be with their mother because of that special bond. Kids are adaptable.
That being said, it is probably better for them to be with the father at this point.

But I forsee a lot of resentment from the children towards the father for forcing them to leave mom behind.

I don't blame them.. I'd rather live in Austrailia over Italy as well.