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Where do you stand?

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posted on Oct, 14 2004 @ 10:20 PM
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Most of us have a feeling for our differing political positions just by crossing paths here in ATS several times...but here's a multi-purpose political thread where you can post your take on the core issues that divide the nation and provide your reasoning for such...

Feel free to comment on each other's beliefs, but dont' simply say "I'm pro-life" and leave it at that - explain why so the next person can respond with why they're pro-choice...maybe choose two or three to name per post so you don't write a novel...

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Speaking of abortion, I'm pro-choice...I think if a young woman is raped and becomes pregnant, within a reasonable amount of time (what is it they say? the third trimester?) they should be allowed an abortion. If a family already has 5 kids or if they're simply too poor to afford a child - abortion...At the same time, increase sex education and perhaps offer free birth control...

I'm anti-war. In many ways, I don't even think we should take the time to worry whether or not we "win"...no one ever "wins" a war...pull out, provide a small presence there for a few years to keep order, focus on North Korea...


[edit on 10/15/2004 by EnronOutrunHomerun]



posted on Oct, 14 2004 @ 10:33 PM
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I'm pro-choice on everything.

I believe the government has no right to tell a woman what to do if she chooses to procure an abortion -- or a handgun.

If you want to buy an American flag and burn it, it's your flag, you should have a right to do so.

You should be able to keep the money you earn as long as you didn't steal it. I don't think the government has the right to steal your money, either.

You should have the choice to wear a motorcycle helmet or seat belt -- or not.

You should be free to do anything you want -- as long as, by doing so, you don't interfere with anyone else's right to do what he or she chooses to do.

But just as I am pro-choice, I am also pro-responsibility.

I don't believe that I as a taxpayer owe you anything; and the only thing the government should be doing for you (and me) is to guarantee our freedoms.

Stealing our money to pay for one-size-misfits-all, government-monopoly schools is not my idea of a government guaranteeing my freedom.

Getting involved in crazy imperialist foreign policies is not my idea of a government guaranteeing my freedom.

Being forced to contribute to a morally and fiscally-bankrupt Ponzi-scheme called "social security" is not my idea of a government guaranteeing my freedom.

Regardless about the blather between left-wing fascists ("liberals") and right-wing fascists ("conservatives"), the whole idea of governance boils down to the fact that there are two kinds of people:

Those that want to tell you how to live your life ...

...And those who don't.

I'm in the second group.


[edit on 15-10-2004 by Off_The_Street]



posted on Oct, 14 2004 @ 11:21 PM
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Off_The_Street pretty much sumed it up for me too.

I am pro-choice on just about everything and pro "dont come crying to me about it" if you have all the choices and STILL screw it up......LOL


take for example

I am against drug laws

BUT

if you get high and run over someone or beat your wife I dont want to hear you crying that the drugs made you do it.

With freedom comes responsablity



posted on Oct, 14 2004 @ 11:29 PM
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Originally posted by Amuk


if you get high and run over someone or beat your wife I dont want to hear you crying that the drugs made you do it.

With freedom comes responsablity
well, those excuses dont work nowadays either. So someone blaming their problems on drugs would be just as false as before.
For all I care though they can keep meth and heroin illegal, those drugs actually do have a negative impact on society, however pot and hallucinogens dont create problems and should definately be legalized



posted on Oct, 14 2004 @ 11:38 PM
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My biggest gripe is gun control...I know...I'm a Libertarian and that should be number one on my least of "Yee-Haws"...


I simply don't agree...I live in a family of hunters - everyone in my family has a gun (except me...plan to get one soon)...but I think strict regulations need to be in place for appropriate use...I don't think there is any realistic need in a modern society for autmomatic weapons

You can kill/injure a thief or what-have-you in the middle of the night just as easy with a pump shotgun as you can an automatic...pumping 3 or 4 rounds into a guy is just expressing your anger as opposed to solving a problem...I say save that for capital punshment...get your pea-shooter and pop they guy in the knee caps and....I'm going on a tangent here aren't I....


I think your choice of guns should be limited by your intended use that you make officialy clear - you can select from approved guns and if you use the wrong gun for the wrong job, you get fined and sent to jail....that's why they make so many different kinds - each type serves its own purpose...get some people in a group who know what they're talking about and use the guns and have them establish the guidelines and groups...

I don't like the idea of knowing that any creep can have a gun and use it....screw that # man....not for me....

[edit on 10/14/2004 by EnronOutrunHomerun]



posted on Oct, 14 2004 @ 11:42 PM
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Originally posted by EnronOutrunHomerun
I don't like the idea of knowing that any creep can have a gun and use it....screw that # man....not for me....


The problem with this is the "creeps" already have them.

What most dont seem to understand is the need for assult rifles are not for protection from crime but so if need be we could at least put up a good fight against OUR GOVERNMENT or an invading Government.

That is what the way our founding fathers intended it



posted on Oct, 14 2004 @ 11:49 PM
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Originally posted by Amuk
The problem with this is the "creeps" already have them.

What most dont seem to understand is the need for assult rifles are not for protection from crime but so if need be we could at least put up a good fight against OUR GOVERNMENT or an invading Government.

That is what the way our founding fathers intended it

True - a lot of crazy people already have guns...with automatic gun restrictions lifted even more crazy people will have even more crazy guns...

But a gun made and provided to the public with the sole intention of taking over the gov't come Judgement Day is like saying Here's a BIIIG RED button...no don't push it! And while I'm all for reform and realize it's a given right by our forefathers, I don't know if I'd want to live to see the day Americans are pitted against Americans and shooting automatic rifles out their windows to their neighbors next door...

A revolution, yes...casualties expected, yes....heavy force used, yes....the given right of anyone old enough to buy a gun, no way....I don't see a resolution....I see side A loosing as many people as side B with no one coming through in the end....automatic weapons have destroyed many many failed attempts at democracy around this world...

[edit on 10/14/2004 by EnronOutrunHomerun]



posted on Oct, 14 2004 @ 11:50 PM
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Originally posted by Amuk

What most dont seem to understand is the need for assult rifles are not for protection from crime but so if need be we could at least put up a good fight against OUR GOVERNMENT or an invading Government.

That is what the way our founding fathers intended it



Like I have always said, "when they come for your guns, give em the ammo first!



posted on Oct, 14 2004 @ 11:52 PM
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they have ak 47s!!!

also, how do you defend yourself when a robber breaks into your house in the middle of the night??? While your on the phone with the police, what do you do wait there and cross your finger and pray the cops will get there within 4 seconds???

What do you do?? Especially if the guy has a knife or a gun?? See creepy people already have these things...


You need to protect yourself in the meantime while your waiting for the cops to come and clean up the mess... See cops are only good for a few things... Their there to clean up the mess and take the bad guy away...

You can't rely on other people if they aren't around you 100% of the time.

You need to be protected.... It's not paranoia, the world is an ugly place sometimes, not everything if all fluffy and cozy like I wish it were...

Some prefer guns, some prefer mace, those who prefer guns shouldn't have to suffer because some people demand they too use mace like them...

Talk about everybody living in the same box, same world, same idea's...

I think plato talked about this in his cave theory...
yes he did...

Some who exercise their reason and who awake from the delusion of the shadow world of popular opinion still have their souls turned to the lower levels of pleasure and material sensuality. They cannot fully detach themselves and ascend to the full light of the cerebral heavens. They turn to lives of vice and tyranny. Here Plato may be referring the tyrants who perform the shadow show from behind the scene. It should be noted that regardless of the amusement they enjoy by oppressing and controlling others, they spend their entire lives in the caves along with the captives.

I'm talking about difference of opinion here.... Oppressing other people's views on gun laws ??? What do you say to that EOH??



posted on Oct, 14 2004 @ 11:53 PM
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Dont get me wrong I am not calling for an armed revolt far from it.

I think our answers lay in the ballot not the bullet


But our founding fathers in their wisdom Knew that sometimes you need that last resort

And nobody is getting automatic weapons they are semi-auto..... BIG difference



posted on Oct, 14 2004 @ 11:58 PM
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No way

I say get all the damn guns you want, if someone pisses you off, blow their heads off, if you want to see em really splatter use a bigger gun...

The more they piss you off the more bullets you can put in their heads... hahha
kidding.


seriously. if you want a gun get a gun... be responsible, it's not a toy, it's not something you use to gain power and control over another human being like they used to do...

You have to be careful, store them properly so your children don't play with them, you need to lock em, make sure they aren't loaded, you have to keep them out of sight, ect...

However we have all our guns in our bedroom closet stored in their gun boxes... Mind you if we needed on asap I doubt we'd get to em on time...
But I got my mace in my drawer so i'd just blind the #er before brain would shoot em...
What a team.

[edit on 15-10-2004 by TrueLies]



posted on Oct, 15 2004 @ 12:21 AM
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Originally posted by Amuk

Originally posted by EnronOutrunHomerun
I don't like the idea of knowing that any creep can have a gun and use it....screw that # man....not for me....


The problem with this is the "creeps" already have them.

What most dont seem to understand is the need for assult rifles are not for protection from crime but so if need be we could at least put up a good fight against OUR GOVERNMENT or an invading Government.

That is what the way our founding fathers intended it


Couldn't have said it better myself


As far as being pro-choice on everything, I would agree to a point.

Abortion for me is a tricky one. On the one hand, it is the womans body, and it should be her right to do as she wishes with it. On the other hand, is she intruding on er childs right to live by doing so


I am going to stick with my current belief that rape/life endangering situtions fully warent one, but I believe that 2nd and 3rd term abortions should be illegal.



posted on Oct, 15 2004 @ 12:26 AM
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Originally posted by TrueLies
I'm talking about difference of opinion here.... Oppressing other people's views on gun laws ??? What do you say to that EOH??

TL...I said above that I'm even considering buying a gun and that I don't oppose people owning them...I just believe heavier restrictions need to be in place saying who should be able to get one and what they claim they are going to use it for - once again...overly poweful weapons is my primary concern...where's their place in society beyond civil war? Would it not be just as easy to obtain that gun when the time comes, and if not, to have enough other guns and friends with guns to suffice? I know, I know...why trust someone else with your life....A gun is a gun though...regardless of it's power, if you have training, you can utilize it to do what any other gun can do...kill...


Originally posted by Amuk
But our founding fathers in their wisdom Knew that sometimes you need that last resort

And nobody is getting automatic weapons they are semi-auto..... BIG difference

Right - like I said...I don't disagree with our forefathers...they had it all figured out - but they also didn't have the weapons we have today - who's to say what they're opinions would be on the matter...we can only speculate....

Good point about the semi-auto...I realize the difference and that's what I meant to say earlier...you're still firing rapid burst shots - it's just not condusive to anything but overkill....it's akin to the SUV craze...more more more....less focus on what's productive and more focus on what's good for the moment...

Who wouldn't enjoy the power of semi-automatric in their hands?! But do I think it should be reserved for my use? I wouldn't even trust myself with a gun like that, nor anyone else...and I go hunting every year....my best friend stole an AK-47 out of a guys open car window at McDonald's (sounds like a lie...I know...it's not) - Do I trust him to use it appropriately? Hell no...it's good for looking at...taking apart when it's unloaded and oohing and ahhing...and little else...


Originally posted by TrueLies
You have to be careful, store them properly so your children don't play with them, you need to lock em, make sure they aren't loaded, you have to keep them out of sight, ect...

And that's something you have to trust other people to do...and while I agree with you Amuk, responsiblity is key and people whinning about their misfortunes is annoying...but most people are just plan dumb...most people don't have common sense...we are the few and proud here at ATS mostly...we know what's up...most people down know what's going on and I don't trust them...

Simple policies put into place that protect gun owners rights while ensuring the idiot gun owners are in check is something that needs to be strengthend....and I don't think gun classes and locks are going to help most of those people...it simply comes down to restrictions based on certain criteria...



posted on Oct, 15 2004 @ 12:33 AM
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Enron says:

“…with automatic gun restrictions lifted….”

What “automatic gun restrictions” are you talking about, Enron?

Are you saying that the laws against automatic weapons, which were passed in the 1930’s, have been repealed? They have not.

Do you know the difference between “automatic guns” and the kind of guns that are now legal for law abiding citizens to buy? Let me explain.

The kind of guns which were outlawed by the Clintonistas were regular autoloading carbines, but the differed from the "legitimate" autoloading carbines and rifles in that they "looked military"

They weren't military machine guns, of course, but they had a pistol grip and/or a lug to put a bayonet on and/or a flash suppressor and or a large-quantity magazine.

That's all. they looked dangerous (or cool, depending on your point of view) and that's why they were banned!

To use a car metaphor, imagine a government wanting to outlaw cars running down the highway at speeds of, say, 150 miles per hour...

So they pass a law making it illegal to buy a rear spoiler for my 4-door Honda Civic!

Boy, that's going to do a real lot of good, isn't it?

And that is exactly what the government did with the so-called "assault rifles" -- they outlawed the ones that looked dangerous.

Wheeee.

The gun you see on my avatar (yes, that’s me; and, yes, that’s one of my carbines) is an “autoloading carbine” (sometimes called a “semi-automatic” firearm. Every time you pull the trigger (assuming you have loaded and charged the gun) it will fire a single bullet. If you want to fire three bullets, you have to pull the trigger three times. It is not an “automatic gun” any more than my Honda Civic is a Boeing 747-400 aircraft, even though they both have wheels and take you from place to place.

These autoloading guns have been legal ever since they were first developed over a hundred years ago.

Automatic guns are properly called “machine guns” (or “submachine guns” if they use shorter cartridges as ammunition). With a machine gun, once you load it and charge it, it will fire when you pull the trigger and will keep on firing as long as you hold the trigger down (until the magazine is emptied).

These are not completely illegal, but if you want to buy a machine gun, you have to pay for the gun up front, pay an additional $500 for a Federal tax stamp, undergo a very thorough police investigation (taking, typically six to nine months) and then, you can take possession of your machine gun.

This law was passed during Prohibition to keep .45-caliber “tommy” guns out of the hands of the Bad Guys (it didn’t work, of course; such laws seldom do). That law has never been repealed.



posted on Oct, 15 2004 @ 12:37 AM
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Okay...I admit my knowledge on different guns is hazy, and thanks Amuk and Off_The_Street (minus some of the unpalatable sarcsim) for the clarifications...

Maybe even I shouldn't even be allowed to hunt under my own harsh suggestions for gun control....but nonetheless, I still stand by my beliefs...


EDIT: All I need say is look at my avatar for further opinions...poor Pyle - he lost it...

[edit on 10/15/2004 by EnronOutrunHomerun]



posted on Oct, 15 2004 @ 01:01 AM
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I believe in total pro choice.guns abortion anything.As long as you dont hurt anyone,why should a law say you cant do something because someone else did.guns,cars,drugs,dont kill people.People kill people.punish the crime not the vessel. just my outlook.



posted on Oct, 15 2004 @ 01:13 AM
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Nice thread Enron!

I'm absolutely against gun control, and not because I own one, but because I like that option being open to me.

I'm the odd libertarian pro-lifer. I believe in fetus rights to state it simply.

If someone wants to make the decision to take drugs, that's their decision.

I agree basically with the LP platform.

Like others have said, the main idea is personal responsibility. If you want to own a gun, learn how to use it. If you want to have sex, do it safely. If you want to take drugs, use moderation. No one wants to take responsibility for themselves any more, but everyone believes they should tell someone else how to be responsible. I think this fact is a large reason why everything is so tied up with laws and litigation.



posted on Oct, 15 2004 @ 11:36 AM
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Enron, I apologize if I crossed the line to sarcasm.

Since you agree with 98 percent of the things I do, you are obviously 98 percent perfect; why should we argue over two measly percent?

And you should understand that I personally am against a lot of things for which I fight.

As a Vietnam-era veteran, I am outraged when I see a person burning the flag.

Although I have two gay friends and love them dearly, as a basically Bible-thumping Christian, I think that homosexuality is a sin, as is abortion.

Yet I also believe that there is a pragmatic and a Christian reason for my libertarian outlook.

Pragmatic, in that my support of a government that takes your rights away is the same government which will, sooner or later, take away those rights that I consider irreplaceable.

Christian, in that I believe the God gave us free will to accept or deny Him, and that any transgression of His law will be adjuciated in a Court with a much larger role that any one here -- and one for which no appelate court exists.



posted on Oct, 15 2004 @ 11:51 AM
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Originally posted by Off_The_Street

Pragmatic, in that my support of a government that takes your rights away is the same government which will, sooner or later, take away those rights that I consider irreplaceable.



This is an issue I have soap-boxed forever.

Its the nature of the two party system, you have BOTH sides trying to take away rights and they have conned the public into going along with it by playing off several groups against one group and once they have them switch to a different group to attack.

Divide and conquer, the oldest trick in the book and we are EATING IT UP.

you have to be willing to let the other guy be free too or you cant be free either

Does anyone remember the statement by the guy in Nazi Germany

It said first they came for the Jews....and I said nothing

Then the came for the unions...and I said nothing

Then they came for the Communists.....and I said nothing

Then they came for the Gays......and I said nothing

And when they came for me.....nobody was left to say anything

Thats not exact but pretty close

does any one remember the whole statement?



posted on Oct, 15 2004 @ 02:10 PM
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Originally posted by Off_The_Street
Enron, I apologize if I crossed the line to sarcasm.

Since you agree with 98 percent of the things I do, you are obviously 98 percent perfect; why should we argue over two measly percent?

No worries...I was...um..."exercising" my freedom last night...lol...maybe I read too much in between the lines...


And you should understand that I personally am against a lot of things for which I fight.

I see where you're coming from....I can't say I feel the same way - I respect the opinons of others and I would defend their right to believe and practice them...but I would never "fight" specificially for something I don't agree with...


Originally posted by PistolPete
No one wants to take responsibility for themselves any more, but everyone believes they should tell someone else how to be responsible. I think this fact is a large reason why everything is so tied up with laws and litigation.

Let's run that as an ad on TV - screw the presidential race...people need to be clear on that first! Well said!

-----------------

Some more of my beliefs (I promise they aren't as controversial as my gun control beliefs
)

Like most have identified here, I'm completely pro-choice - you make the decision, I think nothing less of you so long as you act responsible...

I'm pro-seperation to a certain degree...I don't think religion should be in the schools or workplace UNLESS it is the expressed request of the student, in which case they can practice their religion in their own groups - Classes on the Bible in public school I think should be allowed, so long as the focus is on the text, its meanings and implications, etc...

And although not a party platform...except maybe in the anarchy parties...I'm very anti-bureaucratic and anti-conformity (of course, I guess who would ever say they're pro? - lol)...I welcome differences, changes and new spins...I hate the middle-man and the bureaucracy that we live in where it takes 20 steps to accomplish one thing b/c it has to go through 15 departments...then it gets lost...and blah blah blah....




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