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WAR: Israeli commander suspended in death of Palestinian girl

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posted on Oct, 13 2004 @ 06:47 AM
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Following a investigation, the Israeli Defense Force (IDF) has suspended a army commander and initiated a criminal in the death of a 13 year old Palestinian female. The girl had been shot as she ran towards IDF troops October 5th in the town of Rajah. Believing themselves to be at risk, the girl was shot per the rules of engagement. The matter became a controversy when it was discovered that she had been shot over 20 times despite the official report of only 2.
 



www.cnn.com
JERUSALEM (CNN) -- After launching a criminal investigation into the shooting death of a 13-year-old Palestinian girl, the Israel Defense Forces has suspended an army commander for his involvement in the incident.

An IDF representative announced the suspension Wednesday. The suspended commander was not named.

According to the girl"s mother, Iman al-Hams was killed as she ran toward Israeli soldiers October 5 in Rafah.

"She was on her way to school. There was a lot of shooting that morning and when she heard it, she became hysterical. Instead of running back home she ran towards the soldiers," said Hwaydeh Salman al-Hams.

The Israeli military initially said soldiers believed the girl was carrying a bomb in her school bag and said rules of engagement had been followed.


Please visit the link provided for the complete story.


According to one of the soldiers in the detachment "Then our commander shot her twice. He made sure she was dead and then, I don"t know why, but he decided to turn back towards her body and unloaded a round of bullets into it ... this was the most revolting thing I have ever seen as a soldier.". Soldiers of the unit, took the issue to the largest paper in Israel, Yediot Ahrohnot. Some members of the Knesset, Israels legislative body have called for an outside investigation of the matter.

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posted on Oct, 13 2004 @ 08:28 AM
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Folks

If we are having trouble saying that it is wrong for a group of grown men to kill a scared 13 year old girl then we are confused. If the justification for killing the 13 year old girl is that the grown men were scared, we should be asking whether that is enough. If this happened at home we would take a different view of it.



posted on Oct, 13 2004 @ 08:33 AM
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G_Scard

I don't really thin that that is the issue here. They IDF is not questioning if they were justified in the shooting. What they are looking at is the action of the unit commander who walked up to her body and emptied his clip into it.



posted on Oct, 13 2004 @ 08:42 AM
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Fre_T

Precisely the point I think. The fact that it is an inquiry into an outburst or unseemly conduct arising from the number of bullets that riddled the 13 year old girl rather than the fact that she was killed is the genesis of my comment. The story read:

"Believing themselves to be at risk, the girl was shot per the rules of engagement. The matter became a controversy when it was discovered that she had been shot over 20 times despite the official report of only 2."



posted on Oct, 13 2004 @ 08:54 AM
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The question is why was she walking toward the guard post. Obviously she would have known this to be very dangerous as she knew the area.
There has been some speculation that she may have been a decoy for an aborted Palestinian attack.
Anyway after that 14 year old suicide bomber was caught several months back, the Israeli's are understandibly wary of children.



posted on Oct, 13 2004 @ 09:32 AM
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Originally posted by mad scientist
Anyway after that 14 year old suicide bomber was caught several months back, the Israeli's are understandibly wary of children.


I alluded to this a while back regarding the use of ambulances by extremist groups and what it causes.

Extremists like Hamas have proven that they are not above using little kids as human bombs. Remember the child with the bag who got scared and didn't want to die? So unfortunately as per the rules of engagement a child is seen as the same risk as an adult because frankly who the hell knows anymore. As tragic as it is, I think it also would've been sad if they would have let her run to them and she detonated a bomb. Not unheard of, I'm not making it up.

The actions that take place during/after that incident are the problem. There is no need to shoot a human being twenty times, period. Regardless of their age. An investigation needs to take place as to why that happened and the person responsible was rightfully taken off duty. The situation is volatile enough and doesn't need any further fanning from someone like that.

G scard, I understand your frustration when hearing news like this but you have to understand that in a situation like this where women and children have been proven to be used as weapons (consult any news outlet you'd like for proof of that) it becomes VERY difficult to distinguish at the moment of truth.

[edit on 10-13-2004 by Djarums]



posted on Oct, 13 2004 @ 09:50 AM
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Does it really matter if the person was shot twice of twenty times? The individual who died brought this upon herself. Reminds me of shotting a person in the back and than you are accused of being a coward. In a combat situation, your life and the lives of your comrades are what are important and not those of the enemy.



posted on Oct, 13 2004 @ 10:04 AM
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flycatch I agree with you on one issue. As you said this is a combat situation. The soldiers realize that they have been attacked using that very same method before. What are they supposed to think? It's a horrible situation but no one wants to "wait and see" when the person might have a bomb.

However, I disagree with you on the twenty shots issue. The only shots covered by the rules of engagement are those necessary to end the threat. When the child was already on the floor, to unload a clip into her lifeless body is no longer "combat" it's psycho-driven rage. There's no debating that. A normal person in the army or law enforcement simply does not continue to attack someone who is no longer a threat. This commander is rightfully under investigation now and personally I would never want the guy anywhere near a gun again. Who needs more contributions to the anger in the middle east that can be avoided? People like him do not help.



posted on Oct, 13 2004 @ 10:41 AM
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The individual who died brought this upon herself.


Israeli soldiers, in a civilian neghborhood, where Palestinian children, elderly, and adults have their homes and try to have a "normal" life. Little girl gets scared and doesn't know which way to run when there is shooting while she is on her way to school. Yeah, right, she killed herself. Great logic. The routine mistreatment and murder of innocent Palestinians by the IDF is widely known. Just today there wefre reports of the IDF killing two Palestinian children who were in their classrooms at school. I don't have the details yet. I supose you'll find a way to justify that as well. The obvious point is that the IDF clearly does not adhere to any rules of engagement and could care less how many innocent Palestinians they injure, maim, and murder.



posted on Oct, 13 2004 @ 10:46 AM
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The Isrealis ought to throw that guy oner thier wall and let the palistinian girls family have thier way with them. 20 shots? Can anyone say overkill(no pun intended) Didnt I read in this article that after the initial shot, after the girl was already down, he walked over to her and emptied 20 shots? This guy is no better than Charles Manson or Jeffry Dahmer.



posted on Oct, 13 2004 @ 01:24 PM
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dubiousone, while i do disagree with the quote you are criticizing as much as you do i think you need to take into account both sides of the story.

firstly, if you want to discuss violations of the rules of engagement you should acknowledge that the militant palestinian groups are in violation of specific rules against attacking civilians and non military installations (including the latest qassam attack which killed 2 israeli children, forgot that one i guess).

second, the explanation of the why the girl was shot was 1) not explaining the commander shooting her twenty times, which is inexcusable and 2) not disputable due to the self proclaimed departure of the militant groups from their standard procedures to now include women and children in "martyrdom" operations. no one is saying this was a good thing, however as tragic as it is that is what happens when you have an enemy that doesn't mind sending a baby with a rigged shopping bag to a border check.

frankly I think the way that you view this conflict is horribly one sided as you are so quick to mention routine mistreatment of palestinians by israelis and ignore things like restaurants being blown up that had only civilians in them, or rockets killing children that were playing. the sooner you can comprehend the fact that both sides are dead wrong in the tactics they are using to resolve a conflict the better your understanding of the situation overall will be.



posted on Oct, 13 2004 @ 03:18 PM
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the sooner you can comprehend the fact that both sides are dead wrong in the tactics they are using to resolve a conflict the better your understanding of the situation overall will be.


Djarums, I understand and agree that both sides are dead wrong. There is no excuse for the suicide bombings, the car bombings, and the deliberate targeting of innocent civilians by either side. But I don't agree that the IDF can be so easily excused for this kind of act. The inexcusable aspect of it is not limited to the commander's pumping 20 rounds into the lifeless body of an innocent 13 year old child. The hatred displayed by that act is not limited to that particular commander or that incicent. I firmly believe there is an overarching policy and goal behind Israel's mistreatment of the Palestinian population as a whole. The IDF doesn't limit its actions to rooting out the terrorists which, I agree, must be dealt with. The IDF goes further whenever it ventures into Palestinian territory. It deliberately terrorizes virtually everyone within reach. It bulldozes orchards and fields. Can't have those nasty olive trees and crop plants posing a threat to Israel! Digs up infrastructure. Fills in and poisons wells. Invades homes. Punches holes through the walls of homes. Destroys cars and personal property. And much worse. You don't read much about that in the popular press. But it is a common occurence. That's why a growing number of Israelis refuse to serve in the occupied territories and condemn their country's policies. You don't need to look far to learn about these things. But you do have to look beyond the popoular press which generally supports the simplistic view that ISRAEL IS GOOD and the PALESTINIANS (as a whole) ARE BAD. That's pure bunk. The U.S. is largely to blame for the Israeli/Palestinian horror. The U.S. could bring it to a halt overnight but chooses to say and do nothing when Israel misbehaves. Everyone's afraid to speak up for fear of being labelled anti-semitic, fearing insertion of some negative entry in their personnel/FBI/CIA file, losing their job, or being blackballed.



posted on Oct, 13 2004 @ 08:34 PM
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Originally posted by dubiousone
The obvious point is that the IDF clearly does not adhere to any rules of engagement and could care less how many innocent Palestinians they injure, maim, and murder.


Ummm well, if that were the case then their wouldn't be any Palestinians left. On the other hand the Palestinians don't seem to care how many Israeli women and children are killed.



posted on Oct, 13 2004 @ 08:56 PM
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the Palestinians don't seem to care how many Israeli women and children are killed.


What basis do you have for making that sweeping generalization? How do you know that "the Palestinians" in general don't care about that? What's your point? Are you saying, as the Israeli gov't and IDF seem to say, that this misperception justifies the oppression, injury, maiming, and killing of ANY Palestinian, guilty or innocent?



posted on Oct, 14 2004 @ 04:21 AM
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In a nutshell YES.

At least the Israeli's make an attempt to go after the militants, whereas Palestinians almost exclusively kill civilians.

[edit on 14-10-2004 by mad scientist]



posted on Oct, 14 2004 @ 04:44 AM
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If I was forced to be in a situation where I had to take the life of a thirteen year old kid, I think I'd put 20 rounds into my own head.

God, this world is #ed up.

Maybe the commander flipped out. Maybe he realized the kid looked exactly like his own daughter. Maybe he's a scapegoat, or something behind the scenes is going on. Hard to say without testimony or being there.



posted on Oct, 14 2004 @ 04:50 AM
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It is a shame that the girl had to die, althou we will never know what were her intentions or reason for doing what she did. Perhaps she thought she would be safer beside the soldiers.

But you know one of the questions that came to my mind was....would Palestinians do the same thing? Would they launch a criminal investigaton against one of their own for the wrongful death of an innocent Israeli girl?



[edit on 14-10-2004 by Muaddib]



posted on Oct, 14 2004 @ 04:53 AM
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Originally posted by taibunsuu
If I was forced to be in a situation where I had to take the life of a thirteen year old kid, I think I'd put 20 rounds into my own head.

God, this world is #ed up.

Maybe the commander flipped out. Maybe he realized the kid looked exactly like his own daughter. Maybe he's a scapegoat, or something behind the scenes is going on. Hard to say without testimony or being there.


Or maybe he's seen so much death, of friends and foes that he just doesn't care anymore. We can't judge him unless we've been in his shoes and have experienced what he has.



posted on Oct, 14 2004 @ 08:31 AM
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Folks,

Listen to what some of us are saying:

* There is an innocent 13 year old child
* Shots were fired and became scared (most of us would leave a great big puddle of urine between our legs)
* She ran to authority (obviously thinking to be safety)
* Some of you think she deserved to die because she should have known the adult men with automatic weapons would panic

How many of our 13 year old girls would puzzle their way through this problem in the heat of the moment? How many 23 year old women would make a better decision? We need to learn to look past the knee-jerk the ordinary conditioned response which seems to be that israeli conduct is always excusable in context no matter how repulsive it may be to our values. Somewhat shocking that some of the responses here describe the soldiers' shooting of an INNOCENT 13 year old girl as very understandable and not that the conduct of the 13 year old girl in context is understandable. Put it in our context and think about it.

The biggest part of the War On Terrorism might be to see and act fairly towards people who commit no crime in the middle east (the general population). That alone over time will starve terrorists of their most important resource: new recruits. The more brutal our policy the more recruits the extremists will have. The more the general population understands that they matter to North America and Europe and that progress is being made, the more marginalized the terrorists become.

[edit on 14-10-2004 by G_Scard]



posted on Oct, 14 2004 @ 09:57 AM
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mad scientist, you should distinguish between the militants and the regular palestinian citizens. it's quite a different story over there i assure you.

muaddib, the answer to your question of would the palestinian authority investigate is an obvious no. keeping in mind that arafat's fatah movement has close ties to the people that carry out the day to day bombs and rocket attacks, i believe rather than thinking about a trial they'd think about a financial bonus. numerous cases support what i'm saying.

g_scard, anyone who says that she deserved to die because she shouldve known their reaction would be bad is an idiot. however, trust me she didnt think they were an authority who would protect here. she was 13, not 3. by 13 the palestinian children are VERY familiar with israeli soldiers and would not run to them for protection.

Those of you who are using this as an opportunity to whine about "everyone always excuses israel" need to get over yourselves quickly. Everyone on here, everyone who reads the news, and everyone in the Israeli government even, says that this is a tragedy that didn't have to happen. The person responsible will be punished for his excessive insane conduct. However, laying the blame on the initial problem on one side simply shows ignorance. As does using a dead 13 year old child as a pawn in political swipes.

[edit on 10-14-2004 by Djarums]




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