Saudi-Arabia to build a city only for women!

Originally posted by Druscilla

What I always find interesting regarding Islam is that early on, Women were indeed equal.
This set Islam apart from Christianity and Judaism.

I don't, however, know what happened to change this.

Perhaps old Prophet Muhammad saw what he thought was a good thing in controlling those wild women folk when some of his equal 'disciples' proved more equal than him?
That's speculation, but, besides that, what happened to change a budding belief system into the patriarchal backwards tyranny that it is today?

Further, what happened to the progressive Islam of the Middle Ages that brought math, rudimentary science, medical advances, and better engineering to Western Europe?
Were it not for Muslim medical practices with lancing boils, Black Plague would have had an even graver toll.

It's going through the same evolution Christianity went through. Remember, Islam is pretty much a brand new religion.

Beginning of a religion - Exemplify the best of that religion and prove your place on the world stage. Christianity gained many followers by the "grace" concept and Muslims were leading the scientific community.

Middle of a religion - Create human institutions to "interpret" texts to fit desires of those in power. Christianity started cherry-picking doctrine and killed anybody who opposed them by terrible means. Islam extremists are currently at this stage as are some pockets of Christian extremists.

Adult religion - Adherents stop taking things so literally but still listen to their "elders". This is where Christianity is currently. Mainstream Christianity work on Sundays, don't tithe, and wouldn't burn a "witch" at the stake.

Completed Religion - Adherents "identify" with the religion rather than being oppressed by it. They also are more likely to see the value in other religions. Elders have advice rather than directives. This is pretty much where Buddhism and most Pagan traditions are.

Many New Age beliefs and others like Wicca seemed to have been able to bypass the ugliness of many of the older religions. Perhaps it's because they are based on old traditions that were all but snuffed by Christians, Jews, and Muslims.

Originally posted by Druscilla

What I always find interesting regarding Islam is that early on, Women were indeed equal.
This set Islam apart from Christianity and Judaism.

I don't, however, know what happened to change this.

Perhaps old Prophet Muhammad saw what he thought was a good thing in controlling those wild women folk when some of his equal 'disciples' proved more equal than him?
That's speculation, but, besides that, what happened to change a budding belief system into the patriarchal backwards tyranny that it is today?

Further, what happened to the progressive Islam of the Middle Ages that brought math, rudimentary science, medical advances, and better engineering to Western Europe?
Were it not for Muslim medical practices with lancing boils, Black Plague would have had an even graver toll.

I have asked myself the same questions and have not been able to come up with any satisfactory answer either.

Originally posted by Druscilla

I'm sure they still won't be allowed to drive inside their own city, and other similar activities typically banned, because women are supposedly incapable of doing them due to something about the way their bodies are made.

???

Yeah, couldnt have anything to do with trying to drive with a blanket over your head could it.. nahhhh. Must be all about boobs and vaginas tempting those lily white souled men to do evil.

reply to post by Cuervo


Fun. On reading 'Completed Religion', I immediately thought Hindu, though Hindu isn't without its issues.

Cool - - sounds awesome.

Change is change. This one sounds positive.

Originally posted by Druscilla
reply to post by Cuervo

 

Fun. On reading 'Completed Religion', I immediately thought Hindu, though Hindu isn't without its issues.

edit on 13-8-2012 by Druscilla because: (no reason given)

Hindu was the first one my brain went to, as well, but that whole "caste system" thange... yeah, they are a strange exception as they seem so archaic because of their beliefs but they are about on third stage, in my opinion.

Sadly, I guess this would be welcomed as a step toward more freedom if one were a Saudi woman. If no men are allowed in the city, they should be able to dress however they want right? I doubt that will be the case, as I'm sure men will "oversee" the city of course. Strange news.

reply to post by aboutface


Be a very moody place every few weeks

So Shariah prevails in Saudi Arabia. No surprise. The Shariah foothold is growing larger and stronger.

I love the reasoning stated in the op. To bring SA up to the standard of the modern world. Didn't know the modern world equated to segregation of women. Wowsie!!

Originally posted by Advantage
Yeah, couldnt have anything to do with trying to drive with a blanket over your head could it.. nahhhh.

I lived in Riyadh for 5 months. We used to laugh that every day was Halloween day if you were a woman. They look like black ghosts every day. I felt sorry for them when it was over 110 outside and they were wearing layers and layers of clothing. I did get to see a few women without their hijab. They had the most elaborate clothing on under all that black cloth. One of them even smiled at me. That brazen harlot!

Sometimes I even thought that the goats had more rights than women there. At least they could sit in the front seat of a car. Women aren't even allowed to do that.

reply to post by aboutface


I don't like the Saudi Arabian Government at all, nor the fact that they use billions of Saudi public wealth to build castles for the King and his extended/family.

This in the other hand is a magnificent idea, I do understand that a lot of people don't like "different". They don't understand, they think everyone wants to live like them, they can't change their perspective, to look from someone else's point of view.

In their minds, they think it is absolute, everyone must live like me, must be governed like me, must communicate like me, must interact like me, otherwise they are oppressed.

Get over yourself and your supremacist ideology. As I said before, I don't like the Saudi Kings, but I do like this idea which is based on their culture, just because it is different than yours doesn't mean they are oppressed.

Women in Saudi Arabia are oppressed. To say so does not make one a "supremist" of any kind. IMO, of course.

Originally posted by wash777
Women in Saudi Arabia are oppressed. To say so does not make one a "supremist" of any kind. IMO, of course.

Supremacist mentality. When 100 Muslim dies in US bombings, it is just news, when 1 Westerner dies in Muslim bombing it is the judgement day.

Even if you are not a supremacist, the perspective that you're standing on will unconsciously give you a supremacist mentality.

I'm curious, do you see Western women in the same light as Muslim women in Saudi Arabia? Surely they are also oppressed? Mini Skirts in Snow?

reply to post by insaan


You have the FREEDOM to express your views, even on ATS. In Saudi Arabia, not so much.



These are the FREEDOMS, INDIVIDUAL RIGHTS,not established for women in that Country. I find it hard for ANYONE to stick up for an oppressed system, when they have these very freedoms, these women are not allowed to have. Its hypocritical.

reply to post by insaan


To label me a supremacist (!) or to apply any kind of label to me only shows you to be a judgmental person.

I have more in common with these women than you know. When I was married, I was unable to own property either without going a few extra loops through the system. Napoleonic Law (The law in Quebec where I grew up)was unfair to women and it considered us as second-class citizens until the late 1970s.

What I wish for the women of Saudi Arabia is not to be like me, but to be as free as the men there are: To have the same conditions applied to their ownership of property as the men have. To have research labs that are equal to the labs of the males for instance, and not always have to compare. To have textbooks in their schools that are as frequently revised as those in the male schools.

It was not long ago that women in Quebec could only study in soft sciences such as forestry. Engineering and medicine were forbidden to women. Customs, shmushtoms. Be realistic.

Originally posted by sonnny1
reply to post by insaan

 

You have the FREEDOM to express your views, even on ATS. In Saudi Arabia, not so much.



These are the FREEDOMS, INDIVIDUAL RIGHTS,not established for women in that Country. I find it hard for ANYONE to stick up for an oppressed system, when they have these very freedoms, these women are not allowed to have. Its hypocritical.

Be more specific, surely, there are things they are not allowed to express, the same here in ATS. I'm sure if I expressed my anger over the bigotry that goes on in some threads here in ATS I would be immediately banned. Why would I get banned? Depends on how I express my anger.

Same goes for Western society, if you express yourself with nudity, surely you'll get punched in the head and electrocuted few times with tazers. Then again if you're a woman nudist the shock won't be as bad as a man nudist. But that doesn't mean men are oppressed right?

Ultimately what is my point? My point is, that different societies have different laws based on their own domestic culture. Some people can't understand that, because they have very narrow mindset, they can't imagine life from another perspective, they can't see happiness or joy from any perspective other than their own.

It is like living in a box.

Originally posted by rigel4
reply to post by aboutface

 

Be a very moody place every few weeks

Ha! I was just waiting for it : No doubt as soon as it is completed, someone will apply an acronym to it to read P.... M.... S(audi).

reply to post by aboutface


I did not call you supremacist, re-read my comment, I first described a supremacist, then spoke directly to all those supremacists.

You in the other hand, I fully understand, but you're the one being judgmental by calling those women oppressed:

"A value judgment is a judgment of the rightness or wrongness of something, or of the usefulness of something, based on a personal view"

You can't judge those women based on your own personal view, you have to put yourself in their shows, they grew up in a culture different than yours, they grew up believing that it is righteous to cover yourself, it is good, they believe in GOD, a creator, they believe this life is not it, they believe there is more, and they believe they can do things to gain rewards in the next life..... Feelings revolve around the way you think, so if you think covering yourself or any other cultural or Islamic value is good, then you will feel good, you'll feel happy, in the other hand if you think it is oppression, then you will feel bad.

Why isn't a Western Woman feeling oppressed when wearing a mini skirt in snow? The answer is simply, because she doesn't think it is oppression, it is all about the way you think.

Originally posted by dbates

Originally posted by Advantage
Yeah, couldnt have anything to do with trying to drive with a blanket over your head could it.. nahhhh.

I lived in Riyadh for 5 months. We used to laugh that every day was Halloween day if you were a woman. They look like black ghosts every day. I felt sorry for them when it was over 110 outside and they were wearing layers and layers of clothing. I did get to see a few women without their hijab. They had the most elaborate clothing on under all that black cloth. One of them even smiled at me. That brazen harlot!

Sometimes I even thought that the goats had more rights than women there. At least they could sit in the front seat of a car. Women aren't even allowed to do that.

You bet. My husband and I were in Saudi in the early 90's... There is NOTHING good for women there which I saw with my OWN eyes. I dont even see this woman reservation as a positive either. Its funny, but you know Saudi is our friend, right? WOmen have more rights especially in public in the hated Iran .

reply to post by Druscilla


Now is this an informed and educated hypothesis or a rash statement based off emotions?

THE WORLD IS OUT TO GET YOU!!