Genetic study offers clues to history of North Africa's Jews

Originally posted by dashen

Originally posted by bluemirage5
reply to post by dashen

 

Do you mean Habiru?

No. Habiru was likely not the Hebrews. In Hebrew the word for "Hebrew" is "Ivri". Also, despite what you've read Egyptologists get pretty generous with some of their translations

Yes, everyone wants to rewrite history, but in a scientific study of DNA evidence maybe we can finally learn the truth.

reply to post by Stormdancer777


They can test the DNA of the Cohans all they want......but do they have Mose's DNA to compare with? To my knowledge, they do NOT! So did they really decend from Moses?

I'm yet to find one single Israeli Jew or any Jew who can prove beyond a doubt he decended from the House of David (Tribe of Judah). And what about all the other tribes? Seems not one Jew wants to be related to any other son of Jacob (with Rachael & Leah or his two other mistresses). Funny that.

Jews are a race? Judaism is the religion? So if I don't believe that the Jews are gods chosen people, I'm racist?

Time & Time again, back & forth. No one really knows. Jews claim they are the choosen ones of YHWH
(just a little supremacist don't you think) but if anyone goes against their Torah beliefs their "racist"

Jews are just grasping for anything to prove their racial/religious supremacy.

Wonder if that was the main reason that they were exiled from most/all empires of long ago?

Originally posted by bluemirage5
reply to post by Stormdancer777

 

They can test the DNA of the Cohans all they want......but do they have Mose's DNA to compare with? To my knowledge, they do NOT! So did they really decend from Moses?

I'm yet to find one single Israeli Jew or any Jew who can prove beyond a doubt he decended from the House of David (Tribe of Judah). And what about all the other tribes? Seems not one Jew wants to be related to any other son of Jacob (with Rachael & Leah or his two other mistresses). Funny that.

So very wrong. Where to start?
No, they don't have Moses's DNA . Moses and Aaron, sons of Amram. Amram is grandson of Levi, who is the son of Jacob and Leah. Judah is also a son of Jacob and Leah. The rest of known Hebrews are from the Tribe of Benjamin. All other tribes were exiled by the Assyrians 2700 years ago.

Genographic Project

en.wikipedia.org...

The Genographic Project, launched on April 13, 2005 by the National Geographic Society and IBM, is a multi-year genetic anthropology study that aims to map historical human migration patterns by collecting and analyzing DNA samples from hundreds of thousands of people from around the world.[1]

www.familytreedna.com...

this should help
lol

reply to post by thepupils



This isn't about being god's chosen, don't worry,

Jews are just grasping for anything to prove their racial/religious supremacy.

Are you disputing the scientific evidence?

reply to post by dashen


Thank you Dashen,

This work demonstrates a shared genetic history among the Jews of North Africa and strengthens the case for a biological basis for Jewishness," said medical geneticist Harry Ostrer of the Albert Einstein College of Medicine in New York, who led the study.

in.reuters.com...

I don't think they are just making this stuff up,

What if they are a distinct race?

Why would that be a big deal?

Some people may have to re-think their view's of the world around them .

Originally posted by Stormdancer777

Originally posted by bigfatfurrytexan
How much money was spent on this study so that we could have another attempt at legitimizing further divisions among the only race that there is: the human race?

Were the Jewish faith more favorable of intermingling with other cultures, this would not seem to off putting.

You are missing the point, where you see division, I see finding answers to an age old question, are we all related?

Of course we are. Tens of thousands of years of life on this isolated rock has caused us to interbreed, separate and become unique, then interbreed again (wash, repeat).

The study could yield answers in that regard However, what I am reading above is someone making what seems like a desparate attempt to elevate Judaism to "Jewishness" I had never even heard that word before, and would have sworn it was a racist term had I not seen it first used in a pro-Jewish context. LOL.

Now, obviously I am referring to the content of the article, not the posting of any member of ATS Should such a disclaimer be necessary.

Originally posted by Stormdancer777
reply to post by thepupils

 

This isn't about being god's chosen, don't worry,

Jews are just grasping for anything to prove their racial/religious supremacy.

Are you disputing the scientific evidence?

edit on 103131p://bSunday2012 by Stormdancer777 because: (no reason given)

The Basque & the Sami people's (Pyrenees & Lapland) regions have the oldest DNA in Europe.

reply to post by bigfatfurrytexan


Did you read the opening article?
Albert Einstein College of Medicine

Dr. Ostrer is a long-time investigator of the genetics of the Jewish people. For over 30 years, he has studied the genetic basis of single-gene disorders in Jewish populations and implemented new genetic tests and screening programs to benefit Jewish people. In 2007, he organized the Jewish HapMap Project, an international effort to map and sequence the genomes of Jewish people. In a series of publications about Abraham’s Children in the Genome Era, Dr. Ostrer and his team of investigators demonstrated that the history of the Jewish Diasporas could be seen in the genomes of contemporary Jewish people—an observation that gained worldwide recognition.

He is also an investigator of the genetics of Hispanic and Latino people, including Puerto Ricans, Dominicans, Ecuadorians and Mexicans who currently reside in New York City.

an observation that gained worldwide recognition

www.einstein.yu.edu...

Genetics study of North African Jews tells migratory tale
North African Jews are more closely related to Jews from other parts of the world than they are to most of their non-Jewish neighbors, a study has found.

www.latimes.com...

Yeshiva University historian Lawrence Schiffman said the results lined up nicely with the historical record.

Hey, maybe the Jews deserve a place in the history books as well?

reply to post by bigfatfurrytexan


I am not seeing an attempt to elevate Jewishness, I am seeing a scientific study, maybe you are projecting you own prejudices into the equation,

Would you be as upset if this were a study of Native Americans?

I find this fascinating, but you and others find it a threat, why am I not surprised?

Originally posted by Stormdancer777
reply to post by bigfatfurrytexan

 

I am not seeing an attempt to elevate Jewishness, I am seeing a scientific study, maybe you are projecting you own prejudices into the equation,

Would you be as upset if this were a study of Native Americans?

I find this fascinating, but you and others find it a threat, why am I not surprised?

I don't see it as a threat. I see it as irrelevant.

It is my concern for pride run amok. Pride is a deadly sin for a reason, as it is an obvious precursor to prejudice, which has evils that are all its own.

For me to have a prejudice here would require that I was concerned about matters such as race, nationality, or any of the myriad other ways that 'the man' (whoever that may be, as the story of Babel has "the man' pegged as God) has divided us up to make us fight each other.

There is an awful lot of use of DNA evidence as of late in efforts to support all manner of racial claims. This being just one of them. And I am against all of them. It is nothing but science being used to legitimize racism, even if that racism is just subtle racial pride.

Einstein once said that patriotism is no different than racism, as it presumes that you are somehow superior to another person by birthright. I agree with him wholeheartedly.

Perhaps now you have more context into what I am saying, and can stop your subtle implications that I am somehow bringing racism into the mix. It is the exact opposite....the article that is interpreting the study is racist.

More on Dr. Ostrer
en.wikipedia.org...

Dr. Ostrer has studied the disease and population genetics of Jewish Diaspora groups. In a 2001 article in Nature Reviews Genetics, he noted the curious over-representation of lysosomal storage diseases, disorders of DNA repair, clotting disorders, and metabolic disorders, suggesting a possible commonality for selection of heterozygotes for each of these classes of disorders. He also observed that founder mutations for many of these disorders coalesced to the establishment of each of these Diaspora groups, whereas mutations for others arose at earlier points in Jewish history. A series of studies from the Jewish HapMap Project that he co-founded with Dr. Gil Atzmon demonstrated that many features of Jewish history could be observed in the genomes of contemporary Jewish Diaspora groups – a higher degree of DNA segmental sharing within and between Jewish groups and admixture with local historical non-Jewish groups. In a group of papers about Abraham’s Children in the Genome Era, the members of the Jewish HapMap team explained that these observations are compatible with large-scale proselytism around the Mediterranean Basin during Classical Antiquity followed by relative genetic isolation and endogamy during the subsequent 2000 years. In a forthcoming book, Legacy: A Genetic History of the Jewish People, Dr. Ostrer has explored how these genetic observations might influence collective Jewish identity as well as be used to create a personalized genomics for Jewish people

Harry Ostrer Discovers Ashkenazim and Sephardim Ancestral Similarities
bigthink.com...

Past Big Think interviewee Dr. Harry Ostrer made headlines today for discovering a genetic closeness between the two Jewish communities of Europe, the Ashkenazim and the Sephardim. According to the New York Times article Dr. Ostrer, who serves as the Director of the Human Genetics Program at New York University, developed a method for timing demographic events from the genetic similarities between Jewish communities along with Dr. Gil Atzmon of the Albert Einstein College of Medicine. Some of the shared genetic elements show that Jewish community members are related to one another as closely as fourth or fifth cousins in a large population, which is almost ten times higher than the relationship between two random people chosen off the streets of New York City.

www.nytimes.com...


illuminating what we know of history, aint it a beautiful thing, Tex?

One of the surveys was conducted by Gil Atzmon of the Albert Einstein College of Medicine and Harry Ostrer of New York University and appears in the current American Journal of Human Genetics. The other, led by Doron M. Behar of the Rambam Health Care Campus in Haifa and Richard Villems of the University of Tartu in Estonia, is published in Thursday’s edition of Nature.

Dr. Atzmon and Dr. Ostrer have developed a way of timing demographic events from the genetic elements shared by different Jewish communities. Their calculations show that Iraqi and Iranian Jews separated from other Jewish communities about 2,500 years ago. This genetic finding presumably reflects a historical event, the destruction of the First Temple at Jerusalem by Nebuchadnezzar in 587 B.C. and the exile of many Jews there to his capital at Babylon.

This genetic finding presumably reflects a historical event, the destruction of the First Temple at Jerusalem by Nebuchadnezzar in 587 B.C. and the exile of many Jews there to his capital at Babylon.

www.einstein.yu.edu... - August 6, 2012 - Researchers at Albert Einstein College of Medicine of Yeshiva University and Montefiore Medical Center, the University Hospital for Einstein have developed a new genetic analysis focusing on Jews from North Africa which has provided an overall genetic map of the Jewish Diasporas. The study was published online August 6 in the Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences. See accompanying release: www.einstein.yu.edu...

youtu.be...

Science Talk: New Genetic Study Defines the Genetic Map of the Jewish Diasporas


New Study Defines the Genetic Map of the Jewish Diasporas

www.einstein.yu.edu...

August 6, 2012 — (Bronx, NY) — A new genetic analysis focusing on Jews from North Africa has provided an overall genetic map of the Jewish Diasporas. The findings support the historical record of Middle Eastern Jews settling in North Africa during Classical Antiquity, proselytizing and marrying local populations, and, in the process, forming distinct populations that stayed largely intact for more than 2,000 years. The study, led by researchers at Albert Einstein College of Medicine of Yeshiva University, was published online today in the Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences.

Further, each group demonstrated Middle-Eastern ancestry and varying degrees of mixing with surrounding populations. Two of the major Jewish populations—Middle Eastern and European Jews—were found to have diverged from each other approximately 2,500 years ago.

contributors include

Additional Einstein contributors include: Christopher Campbell, Gil Atzmon, Ph.D., Carole Oddoux, Ph.D., Alexander Pearlman, Ph.D., and Edward R. Burns, M.D. Other contributors include: Pier Francesco Palamara and Itsik Pe'er, Ph.D. (Columbia University, New York, NY); Laura Rodríguez-Botigué and David Comas Martínez (Universitat Pompeu Fabra, Barcelona, Spain); Marc Fellous, M.D., Ph.D. (Cochin Institute, Inserm, Paris, France); Li Hao, Ph.D. (University of Medicine and Dentistry of New Jersey, Newark, NJ); Brenna Henn, Ph.D., and Carlos Bustamante (Stanford School of Medicine, Stanford, CA); Maya Dubrovsky and Eitan Friedman, M.D., Ph.D (Tel-Aviv University, Tel Aviv, Israel).

neat little tid bit

What does DNA evidence reveal about the conversos in the Southwest United States?

For years a host of anecdotal reports have appeared about people in the American Southwest and northern Mexico who practice Jewish rituals such as lighting candles on Friday evenings and covering the mirrors after a family member has died. Occasionally some claimed they were descendants of Jews, but few people took them very seriously. Cultural anthropologists tended to believe they had adopted the rituals from Jewish traders. Thanks to genetic research, however, we can now confirm that many of these individuals and pocket communities do, in fact, have Jewish roots. In my book I tell the story of William Sanchez from Albuquerque, New Mexico, who had always wondered about the Jewish-like rituals in his family. After he saw a story on genetic genealogy on PBS he sent in a DNA sample for testing. When the lab reached him on the phone and said, “Mr. Sanchez, we found some interesting results from your DNA; you may be descended from or closely related to priests,” Sanchez replied, “That makes perfect sense, because I am a priest.” There was stunned silence on the phone because William Sanchez was, in fact, a Catholic priest. He and many of his family members have since pieced together their family history and discovered that they—as well as many Hispanos in Sanchez’s congregation and in communities throughout the Southwest—are the descendants on their male side of Sephardic Jews who converted to Catholicism and then settled in the New World, where they took on Native American wives. Over time the descendants’ Jewish practices atrophied and they became Christian in belief. Nowadays, to celebrate their Jewish heri­tage alongside their Catholic beliefs, Sanchez and many of his parishioners wear a Star of David with a cross in the middle.

reformjudaismmag.org...

Originally posted by bigfatfurrytexan


There is an awful lot of use of DNA evidence as of late in efforts to support all manner of racial claims. This being just one of them. And I am against all of them. It is nothing but science being used to legitimize racism, even if that racism is just subtle racial pride.

Einstein once said that patriotism is no different than racism, as it presumes that you are somehow superior to another person by birthright. I agree with him wholeheartedly.

Perhaps now you have more context into what I am saying, and can stop your subtle implications that I am somehow bringing racism into the mix. It is the exact opposite....the article that is interpreting the study is racist.

you are correct re the use of genetics by eugenicists [they are like a creeping fungus that just wont go away]
this particular conspiracy/subversion of science goes by the name of The Neuroscientific View of Life
which along with Genetic Pre-determinism may very well be the pseudo-philosophical basis for the major acts of mass murder and genocide to be perpetrated during the 21st century
Sorry, But Your Soul Just Died Tom Wolfe
From neuroscience to Nietzsche. A sobering look at how man may perceive himself in the future, particularly as ideas about genetic predeterminism takes the place of dying Darwinism. . www.orthodoxytoday.org...

The neuroscientific view of life

This, the neuroscientific view of life, has become the strategic high ground in the academic world, and the battle for it has already spread well beyond the scientific disciplines and, for that matter, out into the general public. Both liberals and conservatives without a scientific bone in their bodies are busy trying to seize the terrain. The gay rights movement, for example, has fastened onto a study published in July of 1993 by the highly respected Dean Hamer of the National Institutes of Health, announcing the discovery of "the gay gene." Obviously, if homosexuality is a genetically determined trait, like left–handedness or hazel eyes, then laws and sanctions against it are attempts to legislate against Nature. Conservatives, meantime, have fastened upon studies indicating that men's and women's brains are wired so differently, thanks to the long haul of evolution, that feminist attempts to open up traditionally male roles to women are the same thing: a doomed violation of Nature.

Wilson himself has wound up in deep water on this score; or cold water, if one need edit. In his personal life Wilson is a conventional liberal, PC, as the saying goes—he is, after all, a member of the Harvard faculty—concerned about environmental issues and all the usual things. But he has said that "forcing similar role identities" on both men and women "flies in the face of thousands of years in which mammals demonstrated a strong tendency for sexual division of labor. Since this division of labor is persistent from hunter–gatherer through agricultural and industrial societies, it suggests a genetic origin. We do not know when this trait evolved in human evolution or how resistant it is to the continuing and justified pressures for human rights."

"Resistant" was Darwin II, the neuroscientist, speaking. "Justified" was the PC Harvard liberal. He was not PC or liberal enough. Feminist protesters invaded a conference where Wilson was appearing, dumped a pitcher of ice water, cubes and all, over his head, and began chanting, "You're all wet! You're all wet!" The most prominent feminist in America, Gloria Steinem, went on television and, in an interview with John Stossel of ABC, insisted that studies of genetic differences between male and female nervous systems should cease forthwith.

But that turned out to be mild stuff in the current political panic over neuroscience. In February of 1992, Frederick K. Goodwin, a renowned psychiatrist, head of the federal Alcohol, Drug Abuse, and Mental Health Administration, and a certified yokel in the field of public relations, made the mistake of describing, at a public meeting in Washington, the National Institute of Mental Health's ten–year–old Violence Initiative. This was an experimental program whose hypothesis was that, as among monkeys in the jungle—Goodwin was noted for his monkey studies—much of the criminal mayhem in the United States was caused by a relatively few young males who were genetically predisposed to it; who were hardwired for violent crime, in short. Out in the jungle, among mankind's closest animal relatives, the chimpanzees, it seemed that a handful of genetically twisted young males were the ones who committed practically all of the wanton murders of other males and the physical abuse of females. What if the same were true among human beings? What if, in any given community, it turned out to be a handful of young males with toxic DNA who were pushing statistics for violent crime up to such high levels? The Violence Initiative envisioned identifying these individuals in childhood, somehow, some way, someday, and treating them therapeutically with drugs. The notion that crime–ridden urban America was a "jungle," said Goodwin, was perhaps more than just a tired old metaphor.

That did it. That may have been the stupidest single word uttered by an American public official in the year 1992. The outcry was immediate. Senator Edward Kennedy of Massachusetts and Representative John Dingell of Michigan (who, it became obvious later, suffered from hydrophobia when it came to science projects) not only condemned Goodwin's remarks as racist but also delivered their scientific verdict: Research among primates "is a preposterous basis" for analyzing anything as complex as "the crime and violence that plagues our country today." (This came as surprising news to NASA scientists who had first trained and sent a chimpanzee called Ham up on top of a Redstone rocket into suborbital space flight and then trained and sent another one, called Enos, which is Greek for "man," up on an Atlas rocket and around the earth in orbital space flight and had thereby accurately and completely predicted the physical, psychological, and task–motor responses of the human astronauts, Alan Shepard and John Glenn, who repeated the chimpanzees' flights and tasks months later.) The Violence Initiative was compared to Nazi eugenic proposals for the extermination of undesirables. Dingell's Michigan colleague, Representative John Conyers, then chairman of the Government Operations Committee and senior member of the Congressional Black Caucus, demanded Goodwin's resignation—and got it two days later, whereupon the government, with the Department of Health and Human Services now doing the talking, denied that the Violence Initiative had ever existed. It disappeared down the memory hole, to use Orwell's term.


***

Anyone with a child in school knows the signs all too well. I have children in school, and I am intrigued by the faith parents now invest—the craze began about 1990—in psychologists who diagnose their children as suffering from a defect known as attention deficit disorder, or ADD. Of course, I have no way of knowing whether this "disorder" is an actual, physical, neurological condition or not, but neither does anybody else in this early stage of neuroscience. The symptoms of this supposed malady are always the same. The child, or, rather, the boy—forty–nine out of fifty cases are boys—fidgets around in school, slides off his chair, doesn't pay attention, distracts his classmates during class, and performs poorly. In an earlier era he would have been pressured to pay attention, work harder, show some self–discipline. To parents caught up in the new intellectual climate of the 1990s, that approach seems cruel, because my little boy's problem is...he's wired wrong! The poor little tyke —the fix has been in since birth! Invariably the parents complain, "All he wants to do is sit in front of the television set and watch cartoons and play Sega Genesis." For how long? "How long? For hours at a time." Hours at a time; as even any young neuroscientist will tell you, that boy may have a problem, but it is not an attention deficit.

Nevertheless, all across America we have the spectacle of an entire generation of little boys, by the tens of thousands, being dosed up on ADD's magic bullet of choice, Ritalin, the CIBA–Geneva Corporation's brand name for the stimulant methylphenidate. I first encountered Ritalin in 1966 when I was in San Francisco doing research for a book on the psychedelic or hippie movement. A certain species of the genus hippie was known as the Speed Freak, and a certain strain of Speed Freak was known as the Ritalin Head. The Ritalin Heads loved Ritalin. You'd see them in the throes of absolute Ritalin raptures...Not a wiggle, not a peep...They would sit engrossed in anything at all...a manhole cover, their own palm wrinkles...indefinitely...through shoulda–been mealtime after mealtime...through raging insomnias...Pure methyl–phenidate nirvana...From 1990 to 1995, CIBA–Geneva's sales of Ritalin rose 600 percent; and not because of the appetites of subsets of the species Speed Freak in San Francisco, either. It was because an entire generation of American boys, from the best private schools of the Northeast to the worst sludge–trap public schools of Los Angeles and San Diego, was now strung out on methylphenidate, diligently doled out to them every day by their connection, the school nurse. America is a wonderful country! I mean it! No honest writer would challenge that statement! The human comedy never runs out of material! It never lets you down!
***
Thereupon, in the year 2006 or 2026, some new Nietzsche will step forward to announce: "The self is dead"—except that being prone to the poetic, like Nietzsche I, he will probably say: "The soul is dead." He will say that he is merely bringing the news, the news of the greatest event of the millennium: "The soul, that last refuge of values, is dead, because educated people no longer believe it exists." Unless the assurances of the Wilsons and the Dennetts and the Dawkinses also start rippling out, the lurid carnival that will ensue may make the phrase "the total eclipse of all values" seem tame.
The two most fascinating riddles of the 21st century

If I were a college student today, I don't think I could resist going into neuroscience. Here we have the two most fascinating riddles of the twenty–first century: the riddle of the human mind and the riddle of what happens to the human mind when it comes to know itself absolutely. In any case, we live in an age in which it is impossible and pointless to avert your eyes from the truth.

Ironically, said Nietzsche, this unflinching eye for truth, this zest for skepticism, is the legacy of Christianity (for complicated reasons that needn't detain us here). Then he added one final and perhaps ultimate piece of irony in a fragmentary passage in a notebook shortly before he lost his mind (to the late–nineteenth–century's great venereal scourge, syphilis). He predicted that eventually modern science would turn its juggernaut of skepticism upon itself, question the validity of its own foundations, tear them apart, and self–destruct.

these nihilist-materialists have been hitting ATS with their own brand of evangelizing a lot lately

indeed, my freind OP gives him[her]self away by claiming study disproves existence of Khazars
josephus is not a good source, either, as his brief mentions of jesus show signs of being interpolations

at the risk of possibly [further offending] offending some
i'd like to point out that this is SOP for the Aryan "priesthood" that established the caste system in india and also coopted the original Brunet [later Dark White, and later "caucasian"] population of europe as being of the same "race" [yet even today, northern europeans tend to think of/refer to southern europeans as "lazy and shiftless", hmmm, now where have we heard that before? .


i find it amusing that OP is Correct in pointing out that the Mosaic [Shiloh] Priesthood was anti-monarchic,
the current priesthood cohen, is of the aaronic line which had a major hand in the rewriting of the Torah
from whence we westerners derive the "divine right of kings" fallacy

however there is no such thing as a jewish race the proper racial designation for an ancient israelite is Hebrew
history does not repeat itself,
but sometimes it rhymes

Who are the Crypto-Jews - The Jews of Cuba

Hmmm I had no idea

www.cryptojew.org...

www.jewishcuba.org...

www.britannica.com...

Originally posted by Stormdancer777
Who are the Crypto-Jews - The Jews of Cuba

Hmmm I had no idea

www.cryptojew.org...

www.jewishcuba.org...

www.britannica.com...

wrong again
cubans are called by some the jews of the carribbean
my paternal grandfather was cuban and hated the the term
as well as the cuban oligarchs in exile movement that came up with it

on my paternal grandmothers side
i'm descended from spanish sephardim
some were also crypto-jews

a crypto-jew [or secret-jew] is one that pretended to be xtian
after the spanish crown forcibly baptized all jews as xtians
forcing many to practice their beliefs in secret out of fear of the inquisition
burning them at the stake for apostacy

agenda much?

ignorance denied

Originally posted by bluemirage5
reply to post by Stormdancer777

 

There are more non-Jews carrying DNA to the Semetic tribes than there are Jews, only because so many Israelites who were exiled in ancient times got "lost in the woods". Of course, the Jews won't admit that because in all honesty they do NOT carry unique DNA of a tribe, only a geographic area.

Most Israelis (those not from Cohan/Levites) claim they are from the Tribe of Judah. Can they prove it? No they can't unless they have DNA taken from the corpse of Judah. Same goes for the Cohans & Levites, do they have Mose's DNA to compare with?

Maybe you missed this part.

the standard genetic signature of the Jewish priestly family. The chances of these findings happening at random is greater than one in 10,000