For Adults who refuse to grow up, Is Christianity the Adult version for Santa Clauss

reply to post by zarp3333


Your posts have much wisdom..

Thank you for sharing your thoughts...I do enjoy reading them , and am inspired by them.

reply to post by WhisperingWinds

But when you critique and politely "attack" the Christian posters, you claim it is education.

Why not let them go their way, and you go yours?

It is education. And they try to "educate" people to their way of thinking as well. It's called healthy debate, and the spreading and sharing and examination of information. You don't have to approve of it for it to be valid.

"Why not let them go their way?" They are perfectly free to go their way. So are you. I enjoy discussing the higher-thoughts, and reading others' points of view. I have a right to disagree, and I have a 'why' that you clearly cannot -- or will not -- understand.

And I'm weary of trying to explain it to you.....you refuse to accept it, no matter how many times I've tried to explain myself. If you ever post anything that deserves discussion, I reserve the right to make my own points. I also reserve the right to "protest" when attacked. Kindly stop attacking me; one of the basic rules of ATS is to attack the post, not the poster. If you don't like my posts, don't read them!

Thanks in advance for ceasing to judge and badger me.

reply to post by wildtimes

I have a right to disagree, and I have a 'why' that you clearly cannot -- or will not -- understand.

That was a rather assumptive put down...and an example of your personal attacks.

And I'm weary of trying to explain it to you.....you refuse to accept it, no matter how many times I've tried to explain myself. If you ever post anything that deserves discussion, I reserve the right to make my own points. I also reserve the right to "protest" when attacked. Kindly stop attacking me; one of the basic rules of ATS is to attack the post, not the poster. If you don't like my posts, don't read them!

What I don't accept is that you have the right to disagree with what others post , yet when someone disagrees with what you post, you claim personal attack.

I have been attacking the posts,and what they imply and say. I too reserve the right to "protest" when I see Christians unfairly attacked, and I do see that happening in many of your posts.

I'm done now, I have made my point.

Please, read Terry Pratchett's Hogfather. I cannot contribute to this discussion as eloquently nor as thoroughly as this Christmas tale. It's also streaming on Netflix. Pratchett takes care to not insult anyone's beliefs. In fact, he encourages belief. Bring a hanky.

The relationship between Santa and Jesus is somewhat like the relationship between the Oak King and the Holly King. But with a twist of ignorance, consumerism, and fundamentalism added.

Originally posted by MagnumOpus

It appears Jesus is the very root for the Santa theme with gifts being brought afar to the child.

ATS members should know better than to trust appearances. Jesus is not the root for the Santa theme. The Santa theme and the Jesus theme share a much older common root. A root which most people around here know very little about. Shamanism.

www.amazon.com...

Sorry OP but this is a low quality thread. I feel dumber having read it.

I don't understand how people can say religions are ignorant for basically believing in "a bearded man in the sky" when in all reality, not a single one of us were here at the beginning. Scientific theory(which is all the Big Bang is, I think people forget this fact) states that we came from various events started by the big bang in order to create everything that exists in this universe. So someone tell me how believing in a "Grand black hole of infinite mass and infinite size" every came to be in the first place, do you not realize that believing in that magical occurence is the same as every religion that believes in a God? I would also like to state that at one time science had stated to us (all in theory) that the world was flat and that the universe revolved around us. If someone has some sort of proof of how we came to be that is not magical in someway I will stop believing in my God, until then, you can have your hopelesness(in the sense that is all things come to an ultimate end, which technically goes against the whole theory to begin with, what is there when we end? what contains our universe? Nothing? Is there another dimension? How do you know that other dimension is not the Heaven that so many religions speak of.) while I will retain my faith.

Now, I know some of you that are Agnostic, Atheist, or whatever you would like to call yourself may get a little offended at what I am saying and will think I am being intolerant and attempting to convert you to my belief. You are far from correct, In my opinion, people can believe what they want to believe and I do not believe that God in all his power would condemn you for ignorance if he does exist. However, I would just like to point out the fact that, many a people, not just Christians, are extremely intolerant and violent. I do not understand what is going on lately with the whole hate on christians thing. Do you believe that because you live by your own morals it is ok for you to hate christians even though they are people with beliefs as strong as yours and just as proven(How do you prove any form of creation?)? Who is to say that "The bearded man in the sky" did not create the "Black hole of infinite size, mass, and density" in order to set forth the motions of creation? Simply put, "NO ONE KNOWS WHAT HAPPENED"(including myself) anyone that claims to is a liar and a fraud.

"In the beginning, there was darkness, and God said, "Let there be light" (not an exact quote)


All generalizations are bad for we are all unique. To each their own. I do not want to start an argument but I do believe that we should all practice what we preach and if you want the right to believe in whatever you believe in then you need to give others the same decency.

reply to post by MagnumOpus


Hiya!

Well as a believer I think OP that you have hit the "crux" of the matter (pardon the pun).

In my trials of faith at low points of belief I have used this very same analogy.

I don't think you have been hostile or hateful to my faith and you make a good point.

I am not going to even try to make you believe anything here so don't worry. Yet it is impossible for another to convince me to not believe.

Faith is literally FAITH. It requires believing in something that cannot be proved. We have to accept another's word as a witness that what they saw is a true account.

I believe Mathew, Mark, Luke and John and the others. I have seen the odd thing in life that is just so "out there" beyond the realms of physics and earthly interpretations to know that this dimension is not the begin all and end all of the universe. This is the physical dimension of matter. There are others.

For example, we did not know about electricity and could not harness it it in any great capacity until the late 19th century (I accept that is open to debate with discoveries of ancient batteries and the like). Now we know all about this energy and the physics of it. What was once a miracle is now just common knowledge physics (yet still a miracle really when you appreciate it). We of course have not finished our adventures and explorations yet and we will find much more I am sure.

Originally posted by HauntedBullets
I don't understand how people can say religions are ignorant for basically believing in "a bearded man in the sky" when in all reality, not a single one of us were here at the beginning. Scientific theory(which is all the Big Bang is, I think people forget this fact) states that we came from various events started by the big bang in order to create everything that exists in this universe. So someone tell me how believing in a "Grand black hole of infinite mass and infinite size" every came to be in the first place, do you not realize that believing in that magical occurence is the same as every religion that believes in a God? I would also like to state that at one time science had stated to us (all in theory) that the world was flat and that the universe revolved around us. If someone has some sort of proof of how we came to be that is not magical in someway I will stop believing in my God, until then, you can have your hopelesness(in the sense that is all things come to an ultimate end, which technically goes against the whole theory to begin with, what is there when we end? what contains our universe? Nothing? Is there another dimension? How do you know that other dimension is not the Heaven that so many religions speak of.) while I will retain my faith.

Now, I know some of you that are Agnostic, Atheist, or whatever you would like to call yourself may get a little offended at what I am saying and will think I am being intolerant and attempting to convert you to my belief. You are far from correct, In my opinion, people can believe what they want to believe and I do not believe that God in all his power would condemn you for ignorance if he does exist. However, I would just like to point out the fact that, many a people, not just Christians, are extremely intolerant and violent. I do not understand what is going on lately with the whole hate on christians thing. Do you believe that because you live by your own morals it is ok for you to hate christians even though they are people with beliefs as strong as yours and just as proven(How do you prove any form of creation?)? Who is to say that "The bearded man in the sky" did not create the "Black hole of infinite size, mass, and density" in order to set forth the motions of creation? Simply put, "NO ONE KNOWS WHAT HAPPENED"(including myself) anyone that claims to is a liar and a fraud.

"In the beginning, there was darkness, and God said, "Let there be light" (not an exact quote)


All generalizations are bad for we are all unique. To each their own. I do not want to start an argument but I do believe that we should all practice what we preach and if you want the right to believe in whatever you believe in then you need to give others the same decency.

I do think that the Big Bang is expressly cited as a THEORY, so its expression is honest.

I do think that Santa, for the older children is known as a Myth, and this expressed as truth. But the truth is denied to young children that are easily gullible.

The same standards need to be applied to Faith, as it is really a theory, perhaps derived of superstitions, yet nothing is solid proven truth-------only a theory. Yet, it is pounded on the pulpits as truth, and you got to believe or else.

You don't see the pounding on a pulpit about Santa, nor about the Big Bang, as the words are accurate. No one is attempting to sell these as known truths, nor are they advertised as such. This is honestly.


One does not find the preaching from the pulpits telling that we have an old theory on god and on Jesus, we see it sold that you have to believe or you are damned to hell, and you are a lesser person.


Folks speaking of the big bang, Santa, present honest presentations. This appears an abandoned honesty for speaking of a theory of god and theory of Jesus. Certainly, if all those that tell of god and Jesus came to present god or Jesus on David Letterman's show one evening, what they say might become closer to reality, yet for thousands of years, this has not happened.

Honesty and Accuracy would term these Christian beliefs as theory and not be so quick to condemn any other's views that have sometimes even better basis for reality.


We don't find Steven Hawking and other saying you are a hater, if you don't like my theory. We don't find those that don't do Santa or the Season Selling tradiations as hating the Santa tradition and drama for the kids.

But we certainly do see that Christians step up their words into highly aggressive and highly offensive rhetoric that you have to believe or basically Yahweh is going to destroy you, that Jesus is Yahweh, and that we are the body of Jesus. Thus, by their religious montra they tell they want to act to destroy you for not believing, and then tell you this was good for you.


Reminder from the Opening Citation for the OP:

biblefocus.net...

Joshua 24:20: If you forsake Yahweh, and serve foreign gods, then he will turn and do you evil, and consume you, after that he has done you good. WEB


It may seem pleasant to deceive children with myths about Santa Claus, but one has to ask whether it is really worth the price.

The issues for Santa as god have been settled as myths, but in the same line of questions: Has it been worth the wars and blood spilled over things that Christians propose as facts when they are only theory with no proof for reality. The difference is one practices to deceive and the others are honest about myth and theory.

Which is really the difference between Santa and Christian beliefs. Santa is couched in truth, as a pretty traditional myth, and Christianity is still a fantasy forced upon others as reality.

reply to post by MagnumOpus

But we certainly do see that Christians step up their words into highly aggressive and highly offensive rhetoric that you have to believe or basically Yahweh is going to destroy you, that Jesus is Yahweh, and that we are the body of Jesus. Thus, by their religious montra they tell they want to act to destroy you for not believing, and then tell you this was good for you.

I find it offensive that you put all Christians into one category. There are many atheists who have slammed Christians and told them they were going to the hell of their gods making.

Should I judge all atheists the same because of a few ?

As a Christian I would never tell anyone they are going to hell, if they do not believe, nor do I wish them to go to hell, even if they don't believe.

Let the living God decide what is best for souls, if He is indeed real.

Please..please quit lumping all Christians together as a whole when you disagree with the words and actions of a few.

Who is to say what reality truly is? Unfortunately, the Big Bang is allowed to be taught in schools where as Religions are banned from them, how is that ok? When I was in school my teachers never distinguished between the fact that the Big Bang was just a theory, they always taught it as it was taught to them. I believe if they are going to allow scientific theories to be taught in school then they should allow every current religious belief of creation be taught along side of it OR a much better idea would be not to teach the origin of life until we actually know what happened. If we never come to provable facts about where the universe comes from then I don't believe we should be allowed to teach it to the masses as "common knowledge".

Originally posted by WhisperingWinds
reply to post by MagnumOpus

 

But we certainly do see that Christians step up their words into highly aggressive and highly offensive rhetoric that you have to believe or basically Yahweh is going to destroy you, that Jesus is Yahweh, and that we are the body of Jesus. Thus, by their religious montra they tell they want to act to destroy you for not believing, and then tell you this was good for you.

I find it offensive that you put all Christians into one category. There are many atheists who have slammed Christians and told them they were going to the hell of their gods making.

Should I judge all atheists the same because of a few ?

As a Christian I would never tell anyone they are going to hell, if they do not believe, nor do I wish them to go to hell, even if they don't believe.

Let the living God decide what is best for souls, if He is indeed real.

Please..please quit lumping all Christians together as a whole when you disagree with the words and actions of a few.

I think one might have to ask if your beliefs give any rise to the extremes of Christians that one encounters.

As such do you present your beliefs as theory, or more couched as truths that becomes the enabler language for those that go much to far in changing a faith or held belief into something they have to sell as truth and reality to be pounded in public venues, and following this:

Joshua 24:20: If you forsake Yahweh, and serve foreign gods, then he will turn and do you evil, and consume you, after that he has done you good.

Have you been careful in the presentation of your belief to make sure all consider it as a theory, or have your beliefs wordings become the enabler for these more extreme efforts of religion to destory those that don't buy into the story?

reply to post by MagnumOpus

Have you been careful in the presentation of your belief to make sure all consider it as a theory, or have your beliefs wordings become the enabler for these more extreme efforts of religion to destory those that don't buy into the story?

I present my beliefs as such, merely beliefs, based on what I have read, seen, and experienced.

I pray that we all see the light of truth, for truth is the winner in the end , and wish only that others could simply let me have my beliefs without ripping me apart for having them.

Originally posted by HauntedBullets
Who is to say what reality truly is? Unfortunately, the Big Bang is allowed to be taught in schools where as Religions are banned from them, how is that ok? When I was in school my teachers never distinguished between the fact that the Big Bang was just a theory, they always taught it as it was taught to them. I believe if they are going to allow scientific theories to be taught in school then they should allow every current religious belief of creation be taught along side of it OR a much better idea would be not to teach the origin of life until we actually know what happened. If we never come to provable facts about where the universe comes from then I don't believe we should be allowed to teach it to the masses as "common knowledge".

I think the Big Bang is taught as a theory, which is honest. All theory is tested until it either moves into proven or is dismissed as inaccurate.

If religion was taught as theory, and there are many religions with differing theory, then it might be allowed in schools.

Instead, what we see is the Christians want to promote that Creation is the rule, there was not a Big Bang millinea ago, and that the humans are 6,000 years ago created. There exists both a Creation theme, which shows up in archiology, and an evolution theme in nature.

Big Bang is a theory. Religion is not presented as a theory, but something that seeks to run over scientific method and language of theory. Religion moves to extremes that attempt to overcome due scientic language and process.

Which is why religion is banned in Govt. control and taken out of schools, because it ultimately becomes offensive to others and causes more trouble than its worth.

The Christians would jump up and down over issues like this sort of Archiology being tossed into schools, yet the fossil records do present a tell for the history of humans and the issues for the Sumerian themes for god:

www.youtube.com...

The problem is sciences and religion are polar opposites, one insists on language of theory to test the unproven, and the religion insists on faith as being the ultimate truth for which there is no proof.

I think I prefer that it is wise to stick to the scientific presentation methods rather than give any religion free reign to violate that system for honest presentation.

Magnum Opus, you seem to have a lot of hate towards Christianity. That is not the only religion I speak of. Also, as I said, The Big Bang was never distinguished as a theory when I was taught in school. The Big Bang was taught alongside the fact that there is a Sun and that we revolve around it. That sounds more like them trying to disguise a theory as fact to me. How are you ok with the Big Bangs idea but not with any religion? All the Big Bang is, is the scientific God, simple as that, the Big Bang is the creator and destroyer. No matter what you do with the Big Bang, you have a hopeless outcome, death.

I am not downing the theory, I am just saying that my religion is a theory of my own, how can you say I am wrong? To sum it up, I do not solely believe in either God or Scientific Origins. I believe that God used these aspects that we think of as just unknown forces to create life as we know it. Everything is a cycle, but when does it commence and how does it exist.

A good example of this is a cartoon I enjoy to watch called Futurama. In the episode I speak of The Professor goes to a lifeless planet and uses nano technology to start a cycle of evolution(all in order to prove evolution as the reason we exist), once he does prove that evolution can and does happen he travels back to earth to state this fact to the one he was argueing with, then the counter argument is posed, "Yes, it is clear that this is evolution in all of its form, BUT! this evolution was set in motion by a powerful and intelligent being"

AGAIN That is just an EXAMPLE. Like I said before, unless you were here at the beginning of the cycle then you do not know for sure what happened and each of us are entitled to believe what we wish. However, I do not believe it is right that the Big Bang be taught without also teaching children(who are very impressionable and highly unlogical) that we just came to be from a force that popped up for no reason out of nowhere, there is some driving force behind this that we do not understand.

Originally posted by WhisperingWinds
reply to post by MagnumOpus

 

Have you been careful in the presentation of your belief to make sure all consider it as a theory, or have your beliefs wordings become the enabler for these more extreme efforts of religion to destory those that don't buy into the story?

I present my beliefs as such, merely beliefs, based on what I have read, seen, and experienced.

I pray that we all see the light of truth, for truth is the winner in the end , and wish only that others could simply let me have my beliefs without ripping me apart for having them.

The issue appears to be that you depart to some extent from Christian beliefs, but no one know where and how far. But you toss out the title of I am a Christian without the exceptions you would propose.

So, it would appear that you might have to take a Bible and cut out the parts to which you don't subscribe and well tell all the other Christians via such open communication what parts you support and what parts you reject/

Nobody cares much what you want to believe, but you take it into a Forum for discussions and this is discussed.

Yet, you expected something different than differing opinions being expressed.

Everyone talking about their various opinions is what Freedom of Speech is about. Other may differ from your ideas, but that is their right to do so, even to speak to those differences and not be shamed into silence by various Christian cries of you hate us, or you are evil, or you are lower person for not believing us.

Perhaps you don't really seek the honesty of a public discussion forum....

I'd like to add something I think is very important here, on this topic....going to the OP.

I've been a debater and obnoxious little bunny since I was a teenager and, back then, I'd mix it up with religion and directly opposing religious people. See if I could shake there Faith... I'm ashamed of it now and I won that debate. Once. It's the last time I ever had the debate with anyone where it wasn't all being treated academically.

Winning that debate just about ruined the guy, and I'd called him a friend. Winning my point and cause, took all he had for his. I learned something from that about how, for some people, Faith isn't a crutch. It's the center they base their lives and happiness around. With the exception of those who go radical and hurt others, I don't honestly see the problem. If someone worships a Kumquat and names it George, it really isn't my business...unless they push that wacky crap on me.

I also watched my Father die hard from cancer. Unlike many these days, he was a very strong Born Again Believer. We agreed to just not talk about some things....but he died with such strength and peace I can't imagine. His Faith is what gave him that.....

It just don't seem any of us should have the right to so directly challenge and insult what others take so much from in their own lives. Real or not....Right or wrong. So long as no one else is getting hurt.

(hops off soapbox)

reply to post by MagnumOpus

Everyone talking about their various opinions is what Freedom of Speech is about. Other may differ from your ideas, but that is their right to do so, even to speak to those differences and not be shamed into silence by various Christian cries of you hate us, or you are evil, or you are lower person for not believing us. Perhaps you don't really seek the honesty of a public discussion forum....

I do my best to be honest, and am criticized for not being a true Christian now, because I don't damn unbelievers to hell?

Damned if I do, and damned if I don't is all I can say.

Originally posted by HauntedBullets
Magnum Opus, you seem to have a lot of hate towards Christianity. That is not the only religion I speak of. Also, as I said, The Big Bang was never distinguished as a theory when I was taught in school. The Big Bang was taught alongside the fact that there is a Sun and that we revolve around it. That sounds more like them trying to disguise a theory as fact to me. How are you ok with the Big Bangs idea but not with any religion? All the Big Bang is, is the scientific God, simple as that, the Big Bang is the creator and destroyer. No matter what you do with the Big Bang, you have a hopeless outcome, death.

I am not downing the theory, I am just saying that my religion is a theory of my own, how can you say I am wrong? To sum it up, I do not solely believe in either God or Scientific Origins. I believe that God used these aspects that we think of as just unknown forces to create life as we know it. Everything is a cycle, but when does it commence and how does it exist.

A good example of this is a cartoon I enjoy to watch called Futurama. In the episode I speak of The Professor goes to a lifeless planet and uses nano technology to start a cycle of evolution(all in order to prove evolution as the reason we exist), once he does prove that evolution can and does happen he travels back to earth to state this fact to the one he was argueing with, then the counter argument is posed, "Yes, it is clear that this is evolution in all of its form, BUT! this evolution was set in motion by a powerful and intelligent being"

AGAIN That is just an EXAMPLE. Like I said before, unless you were here at the beginning of the cycle then you do not know for sure what happened and each of us are entitled to believe what we wish. However, I do not believe it is right that the Big Bang be taught without also teaching children(who are very impressionable and highly unlogical) that we just came to be from a force that popped up for no reason out of nowhere, there is some driving force behind this that we do not understand.

When religion beliefs are correctly couched on the issue of theory, real explorations of discussions and truth seeking can begin. I think all can rest assured that most of us only seek the truth for history. But many of us have doubts due to the extended record of history rising from the digs of Archiology and various new written record content.

I was not there to see what your teacher of the Big Bang was teaching, but all that I know on the Big Bang cites it as a Theory and never a Law. All science won't respond to a theory of religion being truth until is has a much higher standard for support. Most would toss out the Big Bang as a potential other explanation, but none dare call it proven or a law. In terms of theory, they have an equal footing as both being a theory for what occured.

Teaching Just Christian beliefs in School would be called discriminatory, and basically schools would have to teach the various religions and the differences between them. Else, just teaching Christian beliefs in tax supported schools would not fly. When one gets to college there are various schools of theology. Most teach all religions and explore their differences and common issues. That is often the difference between private schools and public supported schools.

So, most of those that I know that look into religion seek only the truth and most of the better seekers like the scientific methods. You get to propose your beliefs as theory and the others get to test your hypothesis with counter evidence from archiological records and other written accounts for what truely happened. This is how intelligent truth seeking works.

I and others like to investigate the Sumerian god issues that fit the Creation story and there is both a written record to support that theme, as well as much archiological record of the tell from ancient layers of Earth's Fossil history. So, I like to challenge the belief/theory held by Christians as being derived from Sumeria's Annunaki information. This is how science works also, and the counter presentations are all part of the process for discovery of the higher evidence for truth.

None of that process is hate, it is how knowledge and common understanding is processed and discussed in scientific circles. Lots of the Christians don't like this happening as it tends to dismiss a good amount of their system of beliefs, but such is fair game in advancement of knowledge.

So, I put forth some of this videos related information as to what were the Elohim, did they relate to the Annunaki evidence from antiquity, and did their special advanced hold over Earth be termed god.

www.youtube.com...

I find it extremely interesting to take note of all the Blonde and Blue eyed persons running around in ancient times with bigger heads and what appears to be highly advanced knowledge and technology associated to that. This steps well outside the theme for evolution, as a bump in the process. I also find it interesting that King David was Blonde and Blue eyed and this appears connected to his push into being the King for Judaism. Even Jesus was Blonde and Blue eyed, so again it appears. This happens in China in ancient fossils, in South America, and all over the world.


But it shows up that in various ancient cultures that Blonde remains of rulers had this characteristic.

The Christians don't usually want to know this because they are schooled in knowing only one book's information and repeating that so much that it appears to become their only truth.

But the rest of us seeking all the ancient record have no such limitations on knowledge and truth seeking.

Nope, Perchta is the adult version of St. Nick.

Originally posted by WhisperingWinds

I do my best to be honest, and am criticized for not being a true Christian now, because I don't damn unbelievers to hell?

Damned if I do, and damned if I don't is all I can say.

That seems to be the case, because lots of Christians will tell you that you can't be a true Christian without taking all their beliefs. Such is your lot in life with the problems from religions.

You perhaps try to be more honest, but little do any of us know you or what you believe. You only show us your Christian title for yourself, which means you subscibe to their book as pretty much a law.


I think, what you call criticism is just the applications of more information toward what formed beliefs of religion in the middle east, and the various concepts of god due to these old history of this region.


It would appear that you cry because you want others to buy only your system of belief, when real freedom is the right to disagree with your beliefs and various other beliefs and present other information as a way for learning what was that came to be for this day.

You take these differences as a personal attack, when in sciences this are only differently held theory and applications of various information to support the theory in the interest of discovery of the real truth, such that real common truth is held by all.