Christians, I would like your opinion on these verses.

Originally posted by 3NL1GHT3N3D1

Originally posted by Warminindy

The purpose for comparison is this, even though we will never be God, we still are shown how to handle decisions from God. That has been my thesis throughout.

You are correct in the point that the girl had no foreknowledge of the rape. However, my continued statement is that even though she does not know the future of the child, she knows there will be a child. Her concerns then are focused on what to do with the child.

Think also of these two premises:

A nurse is not paying attention when administering a drug and over-administers. The patient she is caring for dies because of this. She made a regrettable error. She had foreknowledge of the medication effects.

The Czech women's basketball team made a technical error that cost them the gold medal. They regret this because they have trained for a long time and the coach taught them to be aware of what can happen.

While they say that experience is the best teacher, it is because the Bible informs us of the experiences of the people in the Bible. God is also teaching that through knowledge and wisdom, we can avoid those experiences in our lives. This was designed for our benefit. Why do we share our experiences when others are confronted by life decisions? Because we want them to know of the choices they have and can make. This is exactly what God is doing here, He is teaching us.

If one says "I've been through that" and someone listens that means they have learned. The verse posted teaches that these people were rebellious and would not listen. Moses was sticking up for them because he experienced what those people had gone through in slavery.

God, in this verse, knew that the moment would come. God knew the people would be rebellious but still in loving them, He regretted or felt sorrow because of that. Parents do the same thing, many are good parents who love their children but at moments of rebellion in the child, parents do feel regret.

There is no discussion of whether or not God was the Father of Jesus. I believe that and maybe you do not. Jesus also taught the disciples to pray "Our father, who art in heaven". He included them within that family framework. Not all parents want to hurt us, some do through stupidity and some through malice, but the majority of parents do not. That is also part of my thesis, that God is our father and the pattern for all fathers to be like. Fathers are supposed to guide, protect and provide. But at the same time they are to be disciplinarians.

Suppose this, a good father has a son that kills people. The father knows this and calls the police to have the son arrested. Did the father make a mistake or did he become a bad father? No, certainly not either. But suppose that good father had to kill the son to prevent the son from killing someone else? The pattern for that father is in God.

Originally posted by WarminIndy
The purpose for comparison is this, even though we will never be God, we still are shown how to handle decisions from God. That has been my thesis throughout.

Who showed and taught you how to handle decisions? Your parents, Jesus called god father, which means Joseph is god to him, because he brought him into this world at conception. A father loves unconditionally, he teaches you right from wrong, when he sees you stray, he will come to your aid, just as you believe your god does.

You are correct in the point that the girl had no foreknowledge of the rape. However, my continued statement is that even though she does not know the future of the child, she knows there will be a child. Her concerns then are focused on what to do with the child.

What you're not understanding is that she would never have been raped if she had foreknowledge of the situation, so she never would've had to worry about the baby. Your god is the only one to have foreknowledge of everything so a human cannot be compared with your god.

Think also of these two premises:

A nurse is not paying attention when administering a drug and over-administers. The patient she is caring for dies because of this. She made a regrettable error. She had foreknowledge of the medication effects.

The Czech women's basketball team made a technical error that cost them the gold medal. They regret this because they have trained for a long time and the coach taught them to be aware of what can happen.

I understand humans can repent, we are talking about god, not humans.

While they say that experience is the best teacher, it is because the Bible informs us of the experiences of the people in the Bible. God is also teaching that through knowledge and wisdom, we can avoid those experiences in our lives. This was designed for our benefit. Why do we share our experiences when others are confronted by life decisions? Because we want them to know of the choices they have and can make. This is exactly what God is doing here, He is teaching us.

I assume you were raised Christian? If you were, then who is the one who taught you manners and how to speak and how to use the toilet? Who is the one who taught you to believe in Jesus? Your parents.

I know my father would never deceive me or try to hurt me in any way. He loved me more than anything in the world, and I loved him just as much and still do.

If one says "I've been through that" and someone listens that means they have learned. The verse posted teaches that these people were rebellious and would not listen. Moses was sticking up for them because he experienced what those people had gone through in slavery.

God, in this verse, knew that the moment would come. God knew the people would be rebellious but still in loving them, He regretted or felt sorrow because of that. Parents do the same thing, many are good parents who love their children but at moments of rebellion in the child, parents do feel regret.

You keep comparing god to your parents, or do you not believe them to be good parents? Jesus' father Joseph was god to him because he was created in his image.

There is no discussion of whether or not God was the Father of Jesus. I believe that and maybe you do not. Jesus also taught the disciples to pray "Our father, who art in heaven". He included them within that family framework. Not all parents want to hurt us, some do through stupidity and some through malice, but the majority of parents do not. That is also part of my thesis, that God is our father and the pattern for all fathers to be like. Fathers are supposed to guide, protect and provide. But at the same time they are to be disciplinarians.

You keep looking past the obvious, your father is the one who had you with your mother. Without him you would not exist. He is god because he is the one who planted the seed for your creation.

Suppose this, a good father has a son that kills people. The father knows this and calls the police to have the son arrested. Did the father make a mistake or did he become a bad father? No, certainly not either. But suppose that good father had to kill the son to prevent the son from killing someone else? The pattern for that father is in God.

Because god is your father, when you were young you might have thought your dad knew everything (I did), that lines up with omniscient. Your father also has foreknowledge because he has experienced many things and can teach you what to do and what not to do in certain situations.

reply to post by calstorm


Calstorm

It is my understanding that you seek an answer from people who cannot give the answer that you seek. Not because they are not right in their own understanding but only that they do not understand how to study Torah. To understand Torah that one must study oral Torah along with written Torah. Otherwise the cultured meanings are lost.

G-d does get angry and this is shown many times in Torah. Christians are taught that G-d is totally love and this is wrong. G-d is not totally love to the evil that exists in that which He created.. Otherwise there would be no punishments to evil. Hell is created for such as that. There fore as the Christian reads this portion of Torah they do not understand that repent merrily means (to G-d) to forgive. When G-d forgives that means that He pardons the evil for that particular circumstance and not that G-d was wrong in judgment and stands in correction.

Let me explain that one more time. G-d never stands in correction. If G-d Stood in correction then He would be corrupt and not G-d. As G-d forgives, He then pardons your sin but that is not to be construed as to believe that He was wrong. How could G-d be wrong in that man produced? Men and women produced the sin and now it is construed as to mean that G-d sinned and repented from the sin which men and women produced. That is absurd and without any sort of foundation.

Isa 45:7 I form the light, and create darkness; I make peace, and create evil; I am the LORD, that doeth all these things.

If G-d created evil then as a Christian show me where G-d can be subjected to the evil that He Himself Created. He would then be corrupt, if this were possible, and not be sovereign. A house divided cannot stand.

This is why so many gentiles are greatly misled into understanding their belief that Torah has many discrepancies. Torah has no discrepancies. Only misunderstandings by both Jew and gentiles. Oral Torah was put into writing at a time when it was feared that the Jews would be decimated to the point that it could no longer be memorized. I would encourage anyone who wants to understand written Torah more than they already do to get a copy of oral Torah. This is available on the internet. A series of oral Torah has been given to us by MeAM Lo'ez in 1746 and is now available to the general public. "Torah Anthology by MeAm Lo'ez"

reply to post by Seede


I don't want to understand any "sacred text" written by man. To do that is to understand how and why man holds a particular view of divinity, and I've already got that down.

I want to understand what NATURE, REALITY, and the UNIVERSE tells us about "God". Because nature speaks the language of truth. Nature cannot lie. Men have lied since the beginning of time.

Between the words of man and the words of the universe, I'll take the words of the universe. Nature has nothing to gain from deceiving us, except its own protection. And when we could be wiped out by a stray meteor or a windstorm, I don't see that being an issue.

TextI don't want to understand any "sacred text" written by man. To do that is to understand how and why man holds a particular view of divinity, and I've already got that down.

reply to post by AfterInfinity


Afterinfinity

I understand your desires and i also respect your desires simply because that is the most common way a man thinks. There is nothing irrational in the attitude you have. That is your prerogative and you have your own rights the same as others have their rights. My only reason that I gave the spiel that I did was to answer, somewhat, the question in a theological understanding that many others had in their own understanding.

All religion is theology and nothing in theology is proven, otherwise it would not be theology. I have the same attitude that you have. I also have my theology down and yes I would love to know the secrets of the universe. One great desire would be to understand dark matter but I realize that I do not have the education to understand this puzzle. I wish there was an ancient book that would explain this to me in my own understanding but so far nothing exists to my knowledge. Meanwhile I shall more than likely die with my theology that I also have down.

Originally posted by Seede
reply to post by calstorm

 

This is why so many gentiles are greatly misled into understanding their belief that Torah has many discrepancies. Torah has no discrepancies. Only misunderstandings by both Jew and gentiles. Oral Torah was put into writing at a time when it was feared that the Jews would be decimated to the point that it could no longer be memorized. I would encourage anyone who wants to understand written Torah more than they already do to get a copy of oral Torah. This is available on the internet. A series of oral Torah has been given to us by MeAM Lo'ez in 1746 and is now available to the general public. "Torah Anthology by MeAm Lo'ez"

I am a Christian and never thought the Torah had any discrepancies. I have read the Torah and the Talmud, and understand that while a few words might be changed to accommodate language, the theme, context and content are exactly the same. The Christian Bible Old Testament (simply a title placed on it) is exactly the same as the Jewish Bible.

When people start looking for discrepancies, it is because they want to look outside the Jewish perspective in which it was originally written in. There simply is no way around the Jewish perspective in the Bible considering every writer even in the New Testament (simply a title), were all Jewish. We even find the Jewish influence in the last book, the Book of Revelation.

Yes, there are parts of the NT written in Greek, but one must understand that the Greek writers were not ever Greek people, they were never Greek culturally and did not have Greek view-points. It simply means that Greek was the common written language at the time in those areas where Paul went to preach at. I always disagree when Christians say "The Greek word is this...". It matters little considering the original preachers were Jewish.

Even the Septuagint was written in Greek, but never had a Greek viewpoint. The Greeks at that time still held their mythologies. And if one reads from a Jewish perspective, the understanding becomes clearer of what the writer was saying. I love it when I hear someone say "The Hebrew word for that is..." because that Hebrew word carries with it the context needed to understand it.

I find no discrepancies whatsoever with the Torah. It has been preserved for thousands of years in the same content and context.

Originally posted by 3NL1GHT3N3D1

Originally posted by WarminIndy

Who showed and taught you how to handle decisions? Your parents, Jesus called god father, which means Joseph is god to him, because he brought him into this world at conception. A father loves unconditionally, he teaches you right from wrong, when he sees you stray, he will come to your aid, just as you believe your god does.

I keep saying that in God, with God as the Father of all mankind, the pattern for what earthly fathers should be like is found in God and taught by God. But Jesus never, ever considered Joseph as His father. In fact, when Jesus was 12 and His family went to Jerusalem, they left Jesus accidentally and went back to find Him. They found Him in the temple speaking to the men there. This particular incident is nothing new, it is called a minyan.A minyan happens today, it is 10 men gathered in the synagogue to discuss Torah. When Jesus' mother found Him she asked Him what He was doing and He said "I must be about my Father's business." Joseph was a carpenter, so if Jesus were doing Joseph's business it should have been carpentry.

I understand humans can repent, we are talking about god, not humans.

Where do we get the understanding of repentance from anyway?

I assume you were raised Christian? If you were, then who is the one who taught you manners and how to speak and how to use the toilet? Who is the one who taught you to believe in Jesus? Your parents.

Yes, my parents were Christian, but that does not ever excuse me from my own need to learn about Jesus. I have a relationship beyond childhood teaching.

I know my father would never deceive me or try to hurt me in any way. He loved me more than anything in the world, and I loved him just as much and still do.

Good, but many Christians, and those of other religions did not have that benefit.

You keep comparing god to your parents, or do you not believe them to be good parents? Jesus' father Joseph was god to him because he was created in his image.

Joseph never created Jesus, by that logic then Jesus should have looked also like a woman, His mother Mary.

You keep looking past the obvious, your father is the one who had you with your mother. Without him you would not exist. He is god because he is the one who planted the seed for your creation.

Actually we were all conceived by our parents, not created by.

Because god is your father, when you were young you might have thought your dad knew everything (I did), that lines up with omniscient. Your father also has foreknowledge because he has experienced many things and can teach you what to do and what not to do in certain situations.

Do you consider your mom the goddess then? Your parents were conceived themselves by their parents and so on. Science considers conception as nothing more than cell division, not creation.

Creation: the act of creating; especially : the act of bringing the world into ordered existence 2 : the act of making, inventing, or producing: as a : the act of investing with a new rank or office b : the first representation of a dramatic role

Childbearing is considered "reproductive", and that definition means that a reproduction needs an original to reproduce. Your parents never created you, they conceived you, you were reproduced from a reproduction through an act that brought about cell division through cells merging.

You never existed before as you are now, but yet all the genetic information that led to you and is found within you has always existed in the genetic information carried within your ancestors. Conception occurred through an act, but the information was already there. You existed within your ancestors, you just didn't manifest until your parents had sex. You were not created by your parents, you were reproduced by them.

Originally posted by Warminindy
I keep saying that in God, with God as the Father of all mankind, the pattern for what earthly fathers should be like is found in God and taught by God. But Jesus never, ever considered Joseph as His father. In fact, when Jesus was 12 and His family went to Jerusalem, they left Jesus accidentally and went back to find Him. They found Him in the temple speaking to the men there. This particular incident is nothing new, it is called a minyan.A minyan happens today, it is 10 men gathered in the synagogue to discuss Torah. When Jesus' mother found Him she asked Him what He was doing and He said "I must be about my Father's business." Joseph was a carpenter, so if Jesus were doing Joseph's business it should have been carpentry.

So you can't be a carpenter and a great father who teaches good morals at the same time? Tell me how that works.

Where do we get the understanding of repentance from anyway?

From ourselves through past experiences.

Yes, my parents were Christian, but that does not ever excuse me from my own need to learn about Jesus. I have a relationship beyond childhood teaching.

But your parents are the ones who planted the seed that Jesus alone is your savior. If your parents never planted that seed, you may never have believed in him. Ask a muslim or Hindu.

Good, but many Christians, and those of other religions did not have that benefit.

So you're saying many (implying most) christians have bad parents? Sorry, but that is not true and you know it.

Joseph never created Jesus, by that logic then Jesus should have looked also like a woman, His mother Mary.

Don't all parents create their children in their image in some way? Whether it be a nose or eyes or whatever?

I never stated Jesus wasn't made in Mary's image.

Actually we were all conceived by our parents, not created by.

What exactly is the difference? To conceive is to form something, didn't god give form to the universe when he created it? Yes he did.

Do you consider your mom the goddess then? Your parents were conceived themselves by their parents and so on. Science considers conception as nothing more than cell division, not creation.

Creation: the act of creating; especially : the act of bringing the world into ordered existence 2 : the act of making, inventing, or producing: as a : the act of investing with a new rank or office b : the first representation of a dramatic role

Childbearing is considered "reproductive", and that definition means that a reproduction needs an original to reproduce. Your parents never created you, they conceived you, you were reproduced from a reproduction through an act that brought about cell division through cells merging.

It's only a logical conclusion that your mother is a goddess if your father is a god.

Without that 'reproduction' you would never have been born to worship your false god in the first place.

You never existed before as you are now, but yet all the genetic information that led to you and is found within you has always existed in the genetic information carried within your ancestors. Conception occurred through an act, but the information was already there. You existed within your ancestors, you just didn't manifest until your parents had sex. You were not created by your parents, you were reproduced by them.

So without your parents or your parents parents, you believe you'd be who you are today? You are missing what's right in front of your face, in plain sight, yet you refuse to see it.

reply to post by 3NL1GHT3N3D1

It's only a logical conclusion that your mother is a goddess if your father is a god.

Not true. Greek tales are full of demigods...half-godly children born from mortal mothers seduced by gods, or raised by mortal fathers who had been seduced by goddesses.

reply to post by AfterInfinity


Those stories could be metaphors for bastard children, children born from adultery.

Originally posted by 3NL1GHT3N3D1

Originally posted by Warminindy

So you can't be a carpenter and a great father who teaches good morals at the same time? Tell me how that works.

I must be about my Father's business. That means doing. Was Josephs' business synagogue related? Was Joseph a preacher? Was Joseph any more than a carpenter? He may have taught good morals, but his business that needed doing was carpentry.

From ourselves through past experiences.

Actually morality is always found within a religious context apart from past experiences. There are people all the time who commit crimes and never regret it. Morality and experience are apart from each other.
Yes, my parents were Christian, but that does not ever excuse me from my own need to learn about Jesus. I have a relationship beyond childhood teaching.

But your parents are the ones who planted the seed that Jesus alone is your savior. If your parents never planted that seed, you may never have believed in him. Ask a muslim or Hindu.

Religious idealism may start from parents, but religious belief is inward and is individual. Just ask a Muslim or Hindu.

So you're saying 'most' christians have bad parents? Sorry, but that is not true and you know it.

I did not say most, I said many.

Don't all parents create their children in their image in some way? Whether it be a nose or eyes or whatever?
.

Reproduced. It is genetic information already there.

I never stated Jesus wasn't made in Mary's image.

We are considering parents, both of them.

What exactly is the difference? To conceive is to form something, didn't god give form to the universe when he created it? Yes he did.

Definition of CONCEIVE 1 a : to become pregnant with (young) b : to cause to begin : originate

reply to post by WarminIndy


Yes I was raised in a Christian home, weren't your pagan and wiccan brothers raised by your christian parents? There is always room for change, no matter how firmly rooted you are in your current ways.

I guess we will have to agree to disagree, I can see this going back and forth with no end.

Good luck to you.

Originally posted by 3NL1GHT3N3D1
reply to post by WarminIndy

 

Yes I was raised in a Christian home, weren't your pagan and wiccan brothers raised by your christian parents? There is always room for change, no matter how firmly rooted you are in your current ways.

I guess we will have to agree to disagree, I can see this going back and forth with no end.

Good luck to you.

edit on 12-8-2012 by 3NL1GHT3N3D1 because: (no reason given)

edit on 12-8-2012 by 3NL1GHT3N3D1 because: (no reason given)

Yes, we will leave this on a positive note.

reply to post by WarminIndy


I think I must be influenced a great deal by my Jewish friends...I said "discuss Torah", I wrote it without second thought. Usually people would say "the Torah". To study and discuss Torah means to seek an understanding of Torah concepts, such as how to live life and treat others.

TextEven the Septuagint was written in Greek, but never had a Greek viewpoint. The Greeks at that time still held their mythologies. And if one reads from a Jewish perspective, the understanding becomes clearer of what the writer was saying. I love it when I hear someone say "The Hebrew word for that is..." because that Hebrew word carries with it the context needed to understand it.

reply to post by WarminIndy


Warminlndy

That was very good and I shall remember that part of your reply. I had never thought of written Greek literature in that way and it is very true. It is odd how much I learn from listening to others. Thank you --