Christians, I would like your opinion on these verses.

reply to post by WarminIndy


Do you not understand the concept of putting yourself in someone else's shoes? That's what I was doing here, putting myself in your shoes and using your belief that god is omniscient to make my point. That in no way implies that I believe in your god.

You obviously do not understand what omniscient means because if you did you wouldn't be saying that an omniscient being could repent. Repenting means to take back what you said, since your god already knew he wasn't going to kill, he never took anything back, meaning he did not repent. That means the bible saying that your god repented is a contradiction to what you believe your god is, which is omniscient.

I can't believe I have to repeat myself so many times to get such a simple concept across your mind.

reply to post by WarminIndy


What? That makes no sense. God knowing what will happen beforehand means he is not omniscient? Are you listening to what you are saying?

Originally posted by 3NL1GHT3N3D1
reply to post by WarminIndy

 

What? That makes no sense. God knowing what will happen beforehand means he is not omniscient? Are you listening to what you are saying?

I am not the one saying "omniscient and repentance is illogical". That was your original statement. My statement, should you refuse to acknowledge yet again, was that God is omniscient by the very definition of the word omniscient. God knows His own thoughts, His own statements, His own actions, His own attitude, His own self, everything He did or will do, and that knowledge means also that He was and is aware of the outcomes of His actions.

Did God know He would repent? Yes. Did God know how He would think once that moment arrived? Yes. So what part of the definition of omniscient do we have the disconnect about?

Repentance

Repentance : noun 1. deep sorrow, compunction, or contrition for a past sin, wrongdoing, or the like. 2. regret for any past action.

Did God know He would feel deep sorrow? Yes, that makes Him omniscient by the definition. Did God know before He created the world that this would happen? Yes. So where is the disconnect?

Originally posted by 3NL1GHT3N3D1
reply to post by WarminIndy

 

Do you not understand the concept of putting yourself in someone else's shoes? That's what I was doing here, putting myself in your shoes and using your belief that god is omniscient to make my point. That in no way implies that I believe in your god.

You obviously do not understand what omniscient means because if you did you wouldn't be saying that an omniscient being could repent. Repenting means to take back what you said, since your god already knew he wasn't going to kill, he never took anything back, meaning he did not repent. That means the bible saying that your god repented is a contradiction to what you believe your god is, which is omniscient.

I can't believe I have to repeat myself so many times to get such a simple concept across your mind.

No, you presented yourself differently and everyone can see what you attempted to do. What you should have said is this "The problem I have with the Judeo-Christian God is this..."

Yours was a cliched strawman....
Strawman

2. a weak or sham argument set up to be easily refuted

By "placing" yourself in my shoes to present "my" worldview to turn around and attempt to refute it, means you strawmanned. Now, without that "placing" why don't you present your own worldview?

reply to post by WarminIndy


Okay, you are obviously not going to understand that an omniscient being is incapable of repentance for the simple fact that he knew he wasn't going to do it beforehand, so I will leave it at that.

You are thinking illogically and are basing your 'facts' on presuppositions and emotions, so you will never grasp the concept.

Originally posted by calstorm
Back when I was still a Christian, I asked those in the position of authority in my church about this. It left them flabbergasted and without response. One person called me a liar and refused to even read the passage. However it had me very troubled.
Even though I no longer believe, I still would like to hear what Christians think of this this.
This is not an attack, just an attempt to deal with something that has been bugging me for several years.

Exodus 32: 9-14

9 And the Lord said unto Moses, I have seen this people, and, behold, it is a stiffnecked people: 10 Now therefore let me alone, that my wrath may wax hot against them, and that I may consume them: and I will make of thee a great nation. 11 And Moses besought the Lord his God, and said, Lord, why doth thy wrath wax hot against thy people, which thou hast brought forth out of the land of Egypt with great power, and with a mighty hand? 12 Wherefore should the Egyptians speak, and say, For mischief did he bring them out, to slay them in the mountains, and to consume them from the face of the earth? Turn from thy fierce wrath, and repent of this evil against thy people. 13 Remember Abraham, Isaac, and Israel, thy servants, to whom thou swarest by thine own self, and saidst unto them, I will multiply your seed as the stars of heaven, and all this land that I have spoken of will I give unto your seed, and they shall inherit it for ever. 14 And the Lord repented of the evil which he thought to do unto his people.

Well.... if you are asking for my opinion, my opinion is that the Old Testament always speaks of and relates to Jesus Christ.

Jesus Christ said to pray for your enemies, instead of your friends, because to pray for your friends would be like being a publican.

In my mind, whenever I read anything by man's work, doesn't matter if its canonical literature or any other works, I never think that their work is perfection: I refer to it as human error. Humans always have had some sort of bias or pander to their ego, or have their own thoughts.

After seeing this passage, when according to whoever the author is, God was to about to unleash His wrath, Moses spoke on behalf for the unjust, and Moses was the most relatively just in that time period, the first thought that came into my head was that this excerpt was a precursor to Christ's message: To pray for your enemies.


And theres a reason why this specific passage has been bugging you for the past years... May it be that God wants you to ask Him ?

reply to post by WarminIndy


So me accurately portraying that you believe god is omniscient is me using a straw man? You obviously have a misunderstanding of what a straw man is.

Just because you couldn't discern that I was putting myself in your shoes does not mean I was trying to trick you. You are the one who failed to notice the obvious, not me.

Good luck, your ignorance is impenetrable apparently.

reply to post by WarminIndy


I will leave you with a quote straight from the bible and let you digest what it says.

Romans 11:29
For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.

Originally posted by 3NL1GHT3N3D1
reply to post by WarminIndy

 

So me accurately portraying that you believe god is omniscient is me using a straw man? You obviously have a misunderstanding of what a straw man is.

Just because you couldn't discern that I was putting myself in your shoes does not mean I was trying to trick you. You are the one who failed to notice the obvious, not me.

Good luck, your ignorance is impenetrable apparently.

Apparently you are not aware of your own flow of posts. When you make statements such as "God is omniscient" means that you are taking that viewpoint. Should I scroll again?

Originally posted by calstorm

This is not an attack, just an attempt to deal with something that has been bugging me for several years.

Exodus 32: 9-14
And the Lord repented of the evil which he thought to do unto his people.

What problem are you having with this?

Lord repented, man repented, Lord created man in his own image. If man can repent, God can repent.

Remember, God created man, then repented that he'd made man, then wiped him out with a flood, saving just Noah, then felt bad he'd had to wipe out the whole of mankind, and decided not to do this again etc..

But, remember, before rushing off to think that proves this or that about God, when God does these things it's a bit different from when men does them.

For example, when God takes a life, he is "taking back his spirit" into himself,

Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it. KJV Ecclesiastes 12:7

That flesh, which we tend to focus on, simply drops to the ground and returns to dust.

So, basically, God's choice is,

[1] keep the parcels of spirit separated from him and instilled in pieces of flesh walking around on earth as individual men, or

[2] withdraw the parcels of spirit back into himself, and wipe out the population of mankind.

Either way, the action is good. However, from the point of view of the men who think of themselves as independent souls walking about on earth, it's an evil thing to have their independence taken away, and losing their separate identities.

you have to know ancient hebrew to get the exact translation, and then you should ask God for His opinion, not anonymous posters.

Originally posted by calstorm
reply to post by Blaine91555

 

I am sorry, but while your argument may be valid, I was taught growing up the the King James version was the only acceptable version and anyone with the holy spirit did not need it to be put in "modern" terms. The elders in which I was dealing with believed strongly that the other version of the bible were taking sinful liberties with the word of God and would be punished.

King James changed the Bible to fit his vision of Christianity. For example, a passage that describes musical instruments to be used in praise and worship includes stringed instruments which were not invented at the time the text was originally written.

reply to post by calstorm



Here is a link to a website with some insight into this. Consider it what you want, just food for thought.

carm.org...

reply to post by WarminIndy


I am absolutely aware of my flow of posts, you said something about a straw man? That is the definition of a straw man.

A straw man is a type of argument and is an informal fallacy based on misrepresentation of an opponent's position.

Link

You are misrepresenting my position. I was clearly putting myself in your shoes, it's not my fault you didn't catch on to that. I thought that fact would be obvious since I was debating your position, but your ignorance blocked that fact out apparently.

Romans 11:29
For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.

You said god can repent, this verse says otherwise.

In my opinion, our Creator, whose capacity and level of existence we haven't the capability or capacity to comprehend, has/had better things to do than fool with a bunch of people wandering in the desert.

Originally posted by 3NL1GHT3N3D1
reply to post by WarminIndy

 

I will leave you with a quote straight from the bible and let you digest what it says.

Romans 11:29
For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.

www.biblegateway.com...

The context of that specific verse was talking about "Israel's" gifts and calling, and I think about God keeping His promise with the nation, although Israel has been falling to sin in the past and present moment. I don't think that specific verse has anything to do with God repenting.

Originally posted by 3NL1GHT3N3D1
reply to post by NOTurTypical

 

an·thro·po·mor·phism (nthr-p-môrfzm)
n.
Attribution of human motivation, characteristics, or behavior to inanimate objects, animals, or natural phenomena.

So you're saying that god is an inanimate object? Or an animal? What about natural phenomena? I'd have to go with the last one myself.

Since that particular verse is an anthropomorphication, and is the fallible interpretation of what god is, what makes you think the bible is infallible? You are using doublethink, saying one thing and believing it yet believing the opposite at the same time. That shows a lack of critical thinking.

What do the fellows at CARM say? What did John Calvin say?

Originally posted by 3NL1GHT3N3D1
reply to post by WarminIndy

 

I will leave you with a quote straight from the bible and let you digest what it says.

Romans 11:29
For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.

He never changes His mind about the calling He places upon us or the gifts of the Spirit He gives us. Example, a person gifted as a prophet will always have the gifts and calling of prophet.

reply to post by AfterInfinity


Here is some ammunition for the heathen because they are of little understanding . Isaiah 45 verse 5 thru 7 . As the creator of all things He is God . The only God and read those verses carefully in context .There could be no good or Holy without Evil . As the creator he has to create and set up both sides of the spectrums . If you want to examine something , examine yourself . Why do you oppose the creation by God . You can't explain how life began on earth or any where else on earth , nor can scientist without the caveat that anything can happen in hundreds of millions of years .That caveat is irrational and a false theory . DNA shot down the spontanious life theory .

Originally posted by calstorm
reply to post by Blaine91555

 

I am sorry, but while your argument may be valid, I was taught growing up the the King James version was the only acceptable version and anyone with the holy spirit did not need it to be put in "modern" terms. The elders in which I was dealing with believed strongly that the other version of the bible were taking sinful liberties with the word of God and would be punished.

You should be sorry because now in your ignorance have decided to take as your enemy a faith that might be your only salvation in this wicked age. Further that you should be sorry and repentant is fact that your misguided anger has provided deception in that other ignorants use to justify their own misplaced hatred.

This calls into question all "literalists" who don't see the irony in their own stiff necks when in fact not a single
Word of the bible was written in English and therefore no translation is literal.