There Is No Choice

Originally posted by AfterInfinity
reply to post by Theophorus

 

So basicaly what you are saying is if god is all knowing (like the bible implies) then everything is predetermined. We have no choice.

Correct.

God either knows you or does not. God only knows those who do his will.

...read what you JUST posted up there. Please. Because you just backpedaled so far, you're back at the start. You can't be SELECTIVELY OMNISCIENT. That is NOWHERE in the Bible.

:bnghd:

And they call ME stupid...

Hold on while I go weep in mingled disgust and despair for the fate of this world and all who inhabit it...

I dont stutter. have you ever thought that you are not the end all be all! Listen close. Maybe you are apart of gods will thus having no choice. Let me know when that little light bulb above your head lights up.

reply to post by AfterInfinity

And I don't want to turn people atheist. I believe in a divine consciousness.

Alright then. what evidence do you have pertaining to this divine consciousness ? Is it/he/she intelligent ? If it's conscious and intelligent surely it must be capable of communication ? What has it said or written to you ? I believe in a divine consciousness also.

What is the nature of this divine consciousness you believe in. How much faith do you have in it ?

And they call ME stupid.

Not me. Not even if your English is in error. But then I don't look for petty crap to jump on in the hope of making anyone look ignorant either.

Maybe a squirrel but not stupid.

reply to post by randyvs

what evidence do you have pertaining to this divine consciousness ? Is it/he/she intelligent

I couldn't find the thread the video was in, but perhaps you've heard of the Ancient Mysteries thread? It has quite a few videos explaining about subatomic consciousness. We're not separate from it, but we don't have full access to it either.

If it's conscious and intelligent surely it must be capable of communication ? What has it said or written to you ?

Thanks to your religion, it's a little more difficult now than it was a long time ago.

What is the nature of this divine consciousness you believe in. How much faith do you have in it ?

Energy. And someday, you'll see it too. You just prefer stuff that you can actually talk about and not feel stupid when people get quantum about it.

reply to post by AfterInfinity

Energy. And someday, you'll see it too. You just prefer stuff that you can actually talk about and not feel stupid when people get quantum about it.

You really need to get over yourself Pard. Cause if you had any kind of sense at all, you'd realize first that you wouldn't make a pimple on a nats ass.

I invite people to explore my signature thread, and the consider the implications of the degree of freedom Jesus had in mind for us, a freedom so boundless we cannot yet even concieve of it.

"And you will know the truth and the truth will set you free, but if you freed for my sake (for the sake of righteousness) then you will surely be free indeed!."

Here's my believe. I think that our fate is already decided for us as I am also a Christianity, but the thing that you seem to forget is that we have free will. WIth our free will we get to decide our fate, but since God is out of time and space he sees the choices we have made and are going to make. It's hard to comprehend when to us it seems as if time just keeps continuing forward. I hope this helps!

a reply to: AfterInfinity

Definitely a star for you

So I'm not a smart guy. I know a bit about life but I have subscribed to a life of simplicity these days...and with that simplicity I have a huge problem with the concept of god and being all-knowing. So first my statement

I believe that if god exists and is all-knowing, then the idea of free-will is destroyed

this is MY OPINION...so disagree if you like but let's stay calm folks

Here is my problem with it

So we are born into a universe created by god. God is all-knowing. He is aware that I will either go to heaven or go to hell. Ok fair enough, he is all-knowing. But then I run into an issue. If he is already aware of my future then what the point of me living it? Even if I murdered hundreds and then made a solemn and honest death-bed conversion, he already knew that was going to happen. So he knew I would be on the path to hell then convert to a path to heaven. But again he already knew. So as OP is saying, where is true choice? We can 'choose' to follow god or not but he knew even before I was born that KyoZero will end up as (insert disposition here)

I am a Pagan and follow Isis. If one day I lost myself and found god in Christianity, well he knew that was coming to.

Ok enough example out of me. I've repeated it several times.

So the issue is this

1. God knows my fate and therefore he's basically watching a rerun of what he already has seen

2. God doesn't know my ultimate fate and thus is not all-knowing

Thing is you can't tell me god is all-knowing and all-seeing then turn around and say he doesn't know how or where I will end up

Again...my opinions only

originally posted by: BeingBlessed
Here's my believe. I think that our fate is already decided for us as I am also a Christianity, but the thing that you seem to forget is that we have free will. WIth our free will we get to decide our fate, but since God is out of time and space he sees the choices we have made and are going to make. It's hard to comprehend when to us it seems as if time just keeps continuing forward. I hope this helps!

right but god already knows my fate so where is my true free will? I can make my choice to strive towards heaven or hell per the christian doctrine but god already knows so how is it free will?

a reply to: KyoZero

This is why it can only be called OUR free will. Every person will have their own. God has not only gifted us with our free will but time to spend our free will in. Since God is out of time and space He knows what we did, are, and are going to do already. So we do have free will. You can get on this website if you want right? God just sees our life as a whole not as past, present, or future. But ultimately, God already does know what is going to happen to us, but that is only because we are trapped within time itself. Hope this helps

a reply to: BeingBlessed

Since God is out of time and space He knows what we did, are, and are going to do already. So we do have free will.

I don't follow. If what we are going to do is a fact before we actually do it, how does that qualify as having free will? Every action predetermined, every event predesignated. That's what it means when he knows everything that has happened, is happening, or ever will happen. Not a single molecular shift or atomic twitch, not a single swing of an electron or spin of a quark that isn't a fully plotted detail in the course of time, from the very beginning to the very end. That's not freedom, anymore than a surveillance state is freedom.

You are born innocent, you are destined to choose your own path through this life.

You do have a choice. You have everything you need to guide you. No one is predestined for hell, but their choices in life can lead them to that end.

You don't need to believe, choose your path well and see where you end up.

In the end everything really does matter.

a reply to: AfterInfinity

I think he meant being outside of time allows one to view time instantly in one motion. Its a mind bender. Supposedly god exists at all times at once therefore is seeing every action at once, which allows for free-will still.

Some of the same people are HERE too, in case your interested to see other replies to the OP

a reply to: ausername

Everything only matters because of (us). The intelligent experiencing agent gives meaning to the meaningless. A cup for instance is nothing but matter, be it plastic, wood glass etc... It sits with no purpose, no meaning. I come along see it and put a beverage inside. Now I gave it meaning.

It makes perfect sense to me, I was thinking along those lines when I was a kid, I have strayed in the eyes of those who wanted me to be what they were because I was born of them ....

Heaven probably sucks just like this place does because I don't suppose anyone there would treat the place any different than they did this place.

Heaven and Hell are really nothing more than an ultimatum.

Religion is a man-made thing, developed to control.

Church and State exist by each other's blessing only.

Even time is a contrived thing.

We are Godless heathens , you and I, shame on us.

a reply to: MyHappyDogShiner

Yeah reminds me of the tool song

originally posted by: g0dhims3lf
a reply to: AfterInfinity

I think he meant being outside of time allows one to view time instantly in one motion. Its a mind bender. Supposedly god exists at all times at once therefore is seeing every action at once, which allows for free-will still.

Some of the same people are HERE too, in case your interested to see other replies to the OP

In matters of omniscience and omnipotence, there are only two choices:

1. There is an opportunity at some point along a particular timeline. "God" prevents it.

2. There is an opportunity at some point along a particular timeline. "God" allows it.

He is credited with designing every detail of every inch of space over a minimum of 90 billion square lightyears over a course of trillions, quadrillions, even quintillions of years, right? He is the grand architect of all of existence. He is the most powerful and the sole authority, no questions asked. At least, that's what has been explained to me. So at any given moment in any given timeline in any given place, both choices belong to "God" and "God" alone. Any illusion of choice in our lives results from his having made one of the two choices above. Nothing can happen unless one of those two choices is made. So either there is no free will, or God isn't as powerful as he is made out to be. Which gives us that much more power, yeah?

a reply to: AfterInfinity

Can't say I don't disagree with you Infinity~



I personally liked this~

Don't bother trying, don't bother fighting, don't bother worrying or fussing or choosing. - See more at: www.abovetopsecret.com...

Just be, you don't have be anything or choose anything, just live life, it's not really that hard (well living can actually be very hard for some)

I would counter with, there are choices as in: you did "Choose" to propose this OP you didn't "have too", no?

Half empty or half full, the perspective of the individual comes to mind more, none the greater only what that individual want's to fill there time and energy with.

Anyway, again nice OP, SnF~

Best regards,

a reply to: AfterInfinity

It could be as simple as the knew some would think they prefer to be out of direct site... Until they matured more within existence and accepted the to GUIDE them...

Until that acceptance of a guide is made, free to will your realities w/ or w/o acknowledging the teachings sent to you why being OVERSEEN may take place.

The manifestation of what is perceived as hell may just be associated with being located in less comfortable Existence settings until you recognize the need for guide-ship. 1 has asked before would any rather to go thru existence alone or with a guide assisting, some answered they would do it alone w/o a guide.

a reply to: AfterInfinity

Not sure, I prefer to talk a bout the non-religious free-will arguments.
1> (Determinism)
2> (Compatibilism)
3> (Fatalism) *which seems to be similar to what you are saying

I don't doubt God's existence however, if infinity (The answerless answer to all) is in fact what is, then all that's possible is as well. God being a possibility, but then God would only be a possibility of infinity and not infinity itself.

Great topic OP and I resonate with what Gnobody stated. That being said....

We have to go beyond Christianity as it is taught and practiced in the modern era. First of all the Old Testament was written in Hebrew but must be interpreted with Kabbalah which is a numerical code. The New Testament is Alchemical in nature and also cannot be taken literally. Actually all of the ancient religions, most myths and fables all have to be interpreted with an esoteric key. Usually this key is passed on from Master to disciple.

Now to free will. First reincarnation is a spiritual / scientific fact. Just because you don't remember your previous lives does not disprove reincarnation. We can awaken our consciousness (through a lot of work as Gnobody mentioned) and we will eventually remember all of our lives. So why do we incarnate (and reincarnate)? Because we started as divine sparks of consciousness / energy in the higher planes of existence and needed to experience matter. Why did we need to experience matter? Because we were divine beings in Nirvana but we were not conscious of our bliss.

Free will...oh yeah.. I'm getting to it. All right let's speed this up. Each spark of consciousness came down fromthe higher planes into the grosser forms of matter over millions of years. Then we all started back up throught the mineral kingdom, the plant kingdom, the animal kingdom and now we are in the human kingdom. All of the previous journey including the animal kingdom was through mechanical evolution. Now that we are intellectual animals (really we are not human yet as long as we have egos) we have to evolve through our own willpower.

Here is the choice: We can take up the challenge, remember why we are on the Bhavachakra (misnamed the Wheel of Samsara in the West) and purify ourselves (turn the lead animal nature into the gold of spirit) or we continue to feed and create more egos. The ultimate end is Nirvana. However, if we do the purifying with our own willpower then we ourselves will become Gods. If we never cleanse ourselves of egos, we get scrubbed in the mineral kingdom (klipoth or hell). Now this cycle repeats in grand cycles called Mahamanvantaras and Mahapralayas. So we get other chances and the Universe is infinite.

On this Earth we have already gone through 4 rounds and we are in the 5th Root Race that is called the Aryan Root Race. The previous Root Races were the Polar, Hyperborian, Lemurian and Atlantean. The Polar and Hyperborean were in higher (less dense) planes of existence. Most of the Atlanteans made the choice to persue the ego and were taken out by violent tidal cataclysms (hence the stories in most religions of a great flood). We are currently making the same mistakes as the Atlanteans and we will have our oun cataclysms. The choice is ours however, and the Teachings are now accessible to everyone who seeks and not just the secret occult societies.