A philosophical proof* of the eternity of all things.

Hello ATS, after many happy greetings i have finally earned the right to post something of my own on here. Here it is, my trains of thought into the ever lasting nature of all things. I would ask that given the difficulty of some of the concepts in this post if you are having trouble with a certain aspect that you point it out so i can either find some better way to explain it, or go into more detail till it becomes clear. Rest assured it all makes sense in my own head and im not insane or delusional as far as i know.

The eternal properties of a person (or in some cases all things) can seemingly be approached by logical sequences of thought. Some of the biggest questions of our day are how big and how small can a thing be. Small steps (indeed very small) in finding these answers have provided some more effective perspectives of thought to hazard a guess at the answers to these other questions.

The view can be divided into two lines of thought, the finite and the infinite.

Taking the finite view on the world provides the following. if at some point a smallness is finally reached that has no divisor then it is arguably possible that an exact copy of something can be made to the effect it is the same thing. Taking for example a square of 2 by 2 by 2 of these "smallness" and then replicating it would provide for all intents and purposes the exact same 2 by 2 by 2. and in the same way this applies to all things including a person or object by simply expanding the scale.

This notion effectively kills the soul in some peoples line of thought, but there is more to this - a flip side of the coin so to speak. it is hard to perceive with no easy metaphor for visualizing but goes as follows:

with this logic a plan for an exact you can be created, a blueprint of your every essence can be created via this notion of finity. via this notion of a plan for you, it immediately becomes impossible for this plan to be destroyed. - if a smallness exists that can’t be divided or destroyed then its not possible that this smallness won’t ever arrange in a fashion in which you exist again - as you are at any given moment.

before the universe existed time had no reference, and so the universe started immediately - a very circular argument. in the same way so must a plan for you that could exist already exist. ( at what point does a building blue print become real - when it is on paper? when it is in the mind of its creator? or before the time its creator perceived on the merit it can be perceived at some point). as with the nature of time - that all things that happen in the future are already determined, so must a blueprint of you that can be created for you already be created.

This leads to the thought that indeed every variation of you possible already exists. that a copy of you that remembers 1 second ago and aged 1 second from now, and then 2 seconds ago and aged 2 seconds and so on. this leads to the interesting thought that perhaps you are me and I you. for in-between the variations of these plans we must merge. - When I have one hair closer to your colour, then 2 hairs, and so on.

(this fits rather snugly into the essence of death losing the property of time, as it allows the lack of a reference point and in doing so allows me to die in 60 years and be born as you 20 years ago - A thought for another time perhaps)

In this sense we are eternal so long as the finite exists. we are also all possibly one.

Although the finite stance seems plausible ( at least in my mind ) to a degree the infinite model seems more so. This being with regard to the observation of singularities and also merely its conception and therefore existence as an entity. That we can say one on top of anything another may say seems to be the proof of this.

The infinite is considerably more difficult to understand, but put simply it seems logical that if we are infinite we are also indestructible for infinity knows no bounds. if the essence of individuality can be attributed to an infinite number of factors or better still, the soul of the person exists as an infinite reel of properties then it must exist in its wholeness outside the bounds of this universe. the universe has a beginning, and in doing so is not infinite in nature even if no limit of division or multiplication is found to it. The universe is also governed by the speed of light - also a very finite number.

if the soul or a person is infinite then they must exist in some wholeness or plane outside of our limits of perception and outside of time and space. If a person exists outside of time and space then the universe will pass by infinitely fast from start to finish, or indeed every universe ever will do so. ( I realize this is hard to visualize)
it is not possible to view the events inside the universe from this vantage point of neither time or space, as if you do so then you became part of its function and therefore exist in a time and space and are limited by its laws.

Effectively our universe and this other realm are separated by an impassable barrier between our bubble of existence, and the Black void of timelessness.

To conclude its comparable to say a computer program cant operate outside its circuit board and is limited by this factor, In a similar way I feel human perception is also ultimately limited by the factor that we are inside the universe and therefore beyond this point seems meaningless to us. In any case with the absence of time anything out “there” in the void must be eternal - and this is where an infinite soul must exist.

In either event continuity endures, which is an encouraging thought.

Your post reminds me of this:
The transparency of things. Rupert Spira investigates the nature of experience.

youtu.be...

reply to post by Itisnowagain


I just watched that series thanks for pointing it out. In a way i supose what im saying is similar, but i was trying to use abit more if a logical deduction method to arrive at my conclusion

We're already in eternity sandwiched as we are between two infinities, whether you believe in the big bang or not, and since there is only what is, and nothing that "is not" - there's no escape. This is IT, but God willing, this isn't as good as it gets!

reply to post by Theillixus

To conclude its comparable to say a computer program cant operate outside its circuit board and is limited by this factor, In a similar way I feel human perception is also ultimately limited by the factor that we are inside the universe and therefore beyond this point seems meaningless to us. In any case with the absence of time anything out “there” in the void must be eternal - and this is where an infinite soul must exist.

Nice post. It might be a little over some people's heads I would imagine. A shame.

Wouldn't an infinite soul, if it was indeed infinite, not live outside in a void, but everywhere? Even in the finite universe? Saying anything otherwise would imply the infinite and eternal universe was just as finite and just as brief as the inside of the universe. An infinite ammount of anything would have to be everywhere and everything.

In that sense, the idea of infinity is flawed:

infinite |ˈinfənit|
adjective
1 limitless or endless in space, extent, or size; impossible to measure or calculate : the infinite mercy of God | the infinite number of stars in the universe.
• very great in amount or degree : he bathed the wound with infinite care.
• Mathematics | greater than any assignable quantity or countable number.
• Mathematics | (of a series) able to be continued indefinitely.

Anything limitless, infinite or eternal would have to be everywhere and everything. If it wasn't, by definition it would be finite. Nothing can be infinite because there wouldn't be anything other than whatever was infinite.

reply to post by LesMisanthrope


You'll have to forgive me because I don't know how to quote yet, im fairly new to this site in terms of contributions. What you say about the infinite existing everywhere I agree with. I think i chose my words poorly when i called it the void, as it implies it is separate - physically to our universe. I didn't mean to visualise this as a drawing of our universe on one side of a peice of paper and then on the over the void, with a line dividing them. It was just my poor method to metaphorically define our lack of conception or connection to what the infinity is.

As you say an infinity has no bounds and must exist everywhere including within our universe. This is the application i was trying to make with the human soul or concious when i was talking about us - as an entity. Clearly it is affecting this universe as we are aware of ourself and therefore its existence. But within our physically observable or perceivable existence there is no trace of this infinity. in this sense it doesn't exist for all intents and purposes in our reality and is so a "void"

Thanks for the post I think i need to learn to write in a more clear style after re-reading my post

- an after thought - that indeed while the infinity exists everywhere, because we are in a state of measurable existence as far as we can perceive (we can measure time - distance, etc) it we can look at it like this: That we are the points say (for no particular reason) 55 to 60 on a measuring tape. if the measuring tape goes on forever forwards and backwards, then we have no real meaning on the measuring tape as our effective value is 0 in comparison to the scale of the rest of the tape. Maybe this is an easier way to see what i mean by the void being somewhat disconnected to our universe - yet ever present also.

reply to post by NewAgeMan


Thanks for the post. I mean this in a humorous sense rather than trying to be all high and mighty as i understand what your actually saying.... but... your words escape you my friend, a contradiction within two words!! two infinities! its all wrong i tell you haha

Originally posted by Theillixus
reply to post by LesMisanthrope

 

You'll have to forgive me because I don't know how to quote yet, im fairly new to this site in terms of contributions.

Welcome friend. This thread really helped me out with posting: ATS Guide to BBCode

As you say an infinity has no bounds and must exist everywhere including within our universe. This is the application i was trying to make with the human soul or concious when i was talking about us - as an entity. Clearly it is affecting this universe as we are aware of ourself and therefore its existence. But within our physically observable or perceivable existence there is no trace of this infinity. in this sense it doesn't exist for all intents and purposes in our reality and is so a "void"

Can you provide an example of a soul or conscious affecting this universe? I would imagine that if an eternal soul were to exist everywhere and in everything, I should be able to feel what you're feeling, know what you're knowing and see what you're seeing. Instead, this infinite consciousness doesn't extend outside my own body, and I do not share experience or awareness with anyone or anything.

I remain unconvinced that there is an eternal soul. I cannot perceive it or experience it and therefore am unable to verify its existence. To me, the human soul is merely the result of thousands of years of Platonic and Aristotelean thought. It's an unnecessary abstraction of something that was relatively unknown until more recent times—the human body.

Let's openly speculate:

• What, in your opinion, is an eternal soul or consciousness?
• In your opinion, does this soul exist?
• How have you learned or know it exists?

I ask because in one sentence you mention it affects the universe, and in another you call it a void or nothing.

Thanks for the post

I think i need to learn to write in a more clear style after re-reading my post

No, thank you. I appreciate a deep thinker. If you continue to write often, even if only to yourself, you will get better. I too am relatively new at writing.

edit on 9-8-2012 by Theillixus because: Edited for terrible typo's and in some cases missing words!

edit on 9-8-2012 by Theillixus because: Edited again for a little more content

edit on 9-8-2012 by Theillixus because: arrggh edited a third time because the on the second edit before id even written the extra thing i wanted to write i pressed the button

edit on 9-8-2012 by Theillixus because: Edited because im just so fantastic at writing i need at least four attempts to get it right

I laughed out loud at this part.

'Things' are not eternal. The appearance (thing) that is seen presently will disappear to be replaced with another image (thing).
What the thing (appearance/image) appears to - is eternal.

Originally posted by Itisnowagain
What the thing (appearance/image) appears to - is eternal.

What does the thing appear to?

reply to post by LesMisanthrope


Aware presence.

Originally posted by Itisnowagain
reply to post by LesMisanthrope

 

Aware presence.

edit on 10-8-2012 by Itisnowagain because: (no reason given)

Never heard of it. Could you help me understand by explaining a little further?

reply to post by LesMisanthrope


There is an awareness of this screen before you, there is an awareness that there is reading happening. You are aware.
Without awareness nothing could be known.

A short video about awareness;
youtu.be...
Followed by these videos about awareness.
youtu.be...
youtu.be...
youtu.be...

Originally posted by Itisnowagain
reply to post by LesMisanthrope

 

There is an awareness of this screen before you, there is an awareness that there is reading happening. You are aware.
Without awareness nothing could be known.

A short video about awareness;
youtu.be...

edit on 10-8-2012 by Itisnowagain because: (no reason given)

Without my body, I wouldn't be aware. The body isn't eternal.

There's no such thing as awareness, only things that are aware.

reply to post by LesMisanthrope


'Things' are not aware, 'things' appear in awareness.
Awareness is like the sky and 'things' are like clouds. The clouds come and go but cannot appear without the sky being present.

reply to post by LesMisanthrope


You are right when you say there is no such 'thing' as awareness - because awareness is not a 'thing'.
The not a 'thing' (nothing) is where all the 'things' appear.
Out of the void came all things.

Originally posted by Itisnowagain
reply to post by LesMisanthrope

 

'Things' are not aware, 'things' appear in awareness.
Awareness is like the sky and 'things' are like clouds. The clouds come and go but cannot without the sky being present.

I am aware. I am a thing. I come and go, but cannot without the body being present. The sky is a thing. It is finite.

Originally posted by LesMisanthrope

Originally posted by Itisnowagain
reply to post by LesMisanthrope

 

'Things' are not aware, 'things' appear in awareness.
Awareness is like the sky and 'things' are like clouds. The clouds come and go but cannot without the sky being present.

I am aware. I am a thing. I come and go, but cannot without the body being present. The sky is a thing. It is finite.

You say you come and go - have you any evidence of this? Have you experienced your coming or going?

Originally posted by LesMisanthrope

Originally posted by Itisnowagain
reply to post by LesMisanthrope

 

'Things' are not aware, 'things' appear in awareness.
Awareness is like the sky and 'things' are like clouds. The clouds come and go but cannot without the sky being present.

I am aware. I am a thing. I come and go, but cannot without the body being present. The sky is a thing. It is finite.

You 'think' you are a thing. You see a body that changes, you see a mind (thoughts) that changes but the one seeing and knowing the changes does not come or go, it is constantly present - aware presence.

reply to post by Itisnowagain


go 1 |gō|
verb ( goes , going ; past went |went|; past part. gone |gôn; gän|)
1 [ intrans. ] move from one place or point to another; travel : he went out to the store | she longs to go back home | we've got a long way to go.
• travel a specified distance : you just have to go a few miles to get to the road.

Yes I have.

come |kəm|
verb ( past came |kām|; past part. come ) [ intrans. ]
1 move or travel toward or into a place thought of as near or familiar to the speaker : Jessica came into the kitchen | they came here as immigrants | he came rushing out.

Yes I have.