Parents of British-born Muslim girl Shafilea Ahmed found guilty of her 'honour' killing

reply to post by jiggerj

And, lack of love.

Indeed.

These honor killings are proof that paternal and maternal instincts are taught by the society we each live in. We humans are not born with it.

Or alternatively, considering that acts like this are very much the exception, maybe it's proof that the parental instincts to love and protect etc are instinctive and inherent but they can be unduly influenced by society, culture, religion etc.

Originally posted by jiggerj

Originally posted by reppie
These things happen in Hindu and Sikh communities as well. It has less to do with religion and more to do with lack of education/poverty.

And, lack of love. These honor killings are proof that paternal and maternal instincts are taught by the society we each live in. We humans are not born with it.

Could it also be proof for how belief systems can warp natural paternal/maternal instincts ? Think you may be jumping the gun a bit there. Most mammals have some kind of parental instinct, even bunnies !

Checking wiki, I see that it states this:

1. Honor killings are not associated with any religion; it is a practice from our tribal years in many countries and is not dealt with as harshly as any other killings. So, it is socially acceptable

2. It is estimated that over 20,000.00 honor killings happens world wide a year? WTF!!!

3. Both men and women can be subjected to it, but mostly women are.

4. The only proof needed to perform one is Suspicion that they may have brought dishonor to the family. They don’t even need proof, nor does the victim get the opportunity to present his/her side of the story.

en.wikipedia.org...

So, if none of this relates to religion , why not just move back to your country if you think “the ways” of the western civilization is ruining your family?

Because you like the money. And you would rather kill your own flesh then return home to save them.

Let’s face it, if anyone else had a problem child, we would do whatever it took to help them out, even if it cost us our whole life savings. These people just get rid of the problem instead, and continue to live half way decent and send money home to other family members.

Just can’t wrap my head around it is all. Hope I am way off mark, but I cannot see any other reason why you would do this.

Thanks,
Blend57

Originally posted by jiggerj
And, lack of love. These honor killings are proof that paternal and maternal instincts are taught by the society we each live in. We humans are not born with it.

I'd dispute that until my death bed. I've had two kids now (along with my partners boy which makes 3) and if I "learnt" my parental instinct from my parents (especially my mother) I would have abandoned them as youngsters.

Originally posted by Kram09
reply to post by lonewolf19792000

 

LOL, you do not know these kinds of people

What do you mean by these kinds of people?

I know muslims and none have ever tried to kill me? But if you're talking about extremist muslims, then if you know them shouldn't they have tried to kill you?

So you think you're friends with muslim? You should go read the Quran, i can assure you, they are not your friend. They are pretending to be your friend. It's a practice called taqiyya, or islamic deception. You want to know what the difference between an extremist and a moderate is?

Extemists want to kill us all now, every non-muslim. This means christian, jew, atheist. agnostic, wiccan, hindu, buddhist or anything else. We are all the same to them. Exremists will also murder other muslim who are moderates because they see them as apostates if they are not willing to kill the enemies of Allah.

Moderates are waiting on the Mahdi to start the party before they kill us all. They don't want to begin the extermination until he arrives. So, if you're out with your moderate muslim friends and the Mahdi arrives, your "friends" are going to turn on you like a wild hungry pack of wolves. They may give you the option to convert before you die, an extremist would not.

Originally posted by Ilyich
reply to post by ollncasino

 

I know many say this time and time again, but heaven, hell, life, is what you make it. Do you really believe there is a place any worse than that which humans make it? We Make life enormously difficult for each other, and in that regard how are you any better than they are for condemning them?

This act is awful, and it truly wrenched my heart today. I can't help but feel baffled by parents of any race, or religion killing their own children. Humanity has taken enormous steps backwards, as far as being evolved/civilized.

I know in Nature some animals will kill their own, but in many cases they will let themselves perish and perhaps provide a last ditch effort of self sacrifice to keep those young alive.

Sad sad times we live in. Keep holding on to hope.

According to NDE's and account's of some surgeons, and medical staff in hospitals, there are worse places than here.

Its infinite layers of realms.

And frequency, consisting of thoughts, words and deeds, determines our next step.

Originally posted by jiggerj

Originally posted by reppie
These things happen in Hindu and Sikh communities as well. It has less to do with religion and more to do with lack of education/poverty.

And, lack of love. These honor killings are proof that paternal and maternal instincts are taught by the society we each live in. We humans are not born with it.

This is far from true. Actions of a minority in our culture does not reflect that. In other cultures, you are seeing the result of theocracy, fascism, living under abuse and fear. The women are often punished by rape. It's a very sick culture, especially for the ones unlucky enough to be married off to bullies.

reply to post by ollncasino


So, this stone aged religion rears it's ugly head again by murdering an innocent girl. Really sad, judging by the pic, she looked like a very beautiful young lady.

Originally posted by Freeborn
reply to post by jiggerj

 

And, lack of love.

Indeed.

These honor killings are proof that paternal and maternal instincts are taught by the society we each live in. We humans are not born with it.

Or alternatively, considering that acts like this are very much the exception, maybe it's proof that the parental instincts to love and protect etc are instinctive and inherent but they can be unduly influenced by society, culture, religion etc.

Honor killings, parents throwing babies in the trash, selling them into the sex trade, or just plain abandoning them... Sadly (horrifyingly!), I don't think this the exception in the majority of the world.

Originally posted by stumason

Originally posted by jiggerj
And, lack of love. These honor killings are proof that paternal and maternal instincts are taught by the society we each live in. We humans are not born with it.

I'd dispute that until my death bed. I've had two kids now (along with my partners boy which makes 3) and if I "learnt" my parental instinct from my parents (especially my mother) I would have abandoned them as youngsters.

edit on 4/8/12 by stumason because: (no reason given)

You have NO idea how much I want to be wrong about this. I just googled "world wide statistics on child abuse" and got 10,500,000 hits. Google search

The very first site on the google search states that 40 million children are abused each year. That's 40 million different children each year.

reply to post by jiggerj


It is a horrible figure, but has to be taken in context. First, what classes as "abuse" in one place may not necessarily be abuse in another (not making excuses, but such things can distort figures). Secondly, just how many children are there in the world? Given most of the world is quite young, as mortality is high and the definition of what a child is can vary too, I'd say that 40 million is still but a fraction.

Horrible, yes, but lets not get carried away. remember, there are over 7 Billion people and counting. Taking the "crude birth rate" figure from the UN of 19 births per 1,000 people, that is 133,000,000 children born every year! The UN also says that 1/3rd the world's population are children, so we're talking 2.3 Billion kids globally. In that context, 40 million seems quite small @ 5%..

Not trying to argue the toss, as it were, just trying to keep it grounded when we're discussing global figures.

reply to post by jiggerj


I don't dispute that child abuse occurs - far too frequently - but the fact remains that the vast majority of children are not abused. (I have absolutely no intention whatsoever of making light of that abuse, child abuse of any kind is totally and utterly inexcusable in my book and those guilty of it should be punished to the extreme!).

And my point was that we as human beings are naturally born to be protective and offer loving and care to children, especially our own offspring.
I think that some people are simply 'born evil' but many are affected by the society and culture they are born into.

None of which excuses what these two peoiple did to their daughter, whilst their culture may have influenced them it was still their choice to kill their own daughter.

reply to post by ollncasino


Part of the problem is that the police and social services in the UK are terrified to investigate the Pakistani community for fear of being accused of not being politically correct.

Another important point is where is the out cry from the UK Pakistani community at the murder of a young girl by her parents to preserve the family's 'honour'?

There is none.

Also of interest is that of three surviving siblings, two refused to testify that they had witnessed their parents murdering their sister.

Originally posted by stumason
reply to post by jiggerj

 

It is a horrible figure, but has to be taken in context. First, what classes as "abuse" in one place may not necessarily be abuse in another (not making excuses, but such things can distort figures). Secondly, just how many children are there in the world? Given most of the world is quite young, as mortality is high and the definition of what a child is can vary too, I'd say that 40 million is still but a fraction.

Horrible, yes, but lets not get carried away. remember, there are over 7 Billion people and counting. Taking the "crude birth rate" figure from the UN of 19 births per 1,000 people, that is 133,000,000 children born every year! The UN also says that 1/3rd the world's population are children, so we're talking 2.3 Billion kids globally. In that context, 40 million seems quite small @ 5%..

Not trying to argue the toss, as it were, just trying to keep it grounded when we're discussing global figures.

I guess you're right. Still sad though.

Every time something like this happens it's hardly ever the ppl form the same community condemning it but other ppl.

They also downplay and damage control it. "It's not religion it's the culture", when you say the culture is backwards they start saying you're racist or something.