A Challenge to Chemtrail Believers - Explain this 1969 Issue of Popular Science:

Originally posted by chadderson
Then it is settled. Jet trails can cause clouds, and jet trails can also dessipate entirely. I guess i began spouting on for no real reason as you never indicated any disagreement.

Yes. The dissipation (or not) depends on the weather. That's why it only does it on some days of the year. That's also why it only does it at certain altitudes, and even just certain regions of the sky, as humidity varies.

But the important point here is that the chemtrail promoters are ignoring this, and essentially lying about it.

Originally posted by SpittinTruth
Yeah...well....today, the planes were out, in force...1 after another. I saw 6 planes within 1/2 hour. Even recorded it on my digital camera. You know the strange part? They haven't been out in 2 months. Even stranger??? They were spraying non-stop on Christmas...and just about every day since....til about 2 months ago...when they stopped. And now, they're back. This, i would looooooove to hear an 'excuse' for.

It's because of the weather. Contrail persistence varies in much the way that rainfall varies. In Los Angeles we get very few persistent contrails in the summer. And we get very little rain in the summer. Other places have different patterns.

This is another bit of well understood science that the chemtrail promoters ignore. They even say things like "they are spraying invisible chemtrails" during the summer.

reply to post by WiseThinker

Yet this conversations keeps getting thrashed by stupid arguments like do Contrails persist or not, when there are videos of unmarked planes, suddenly having a contrail, then not, and then again, at the same altitude.

Well then you may want to watch this...



and here is another good one for you..



Enjoy...

"It's because of the weather. Contrail persistence varies in much the way that rainfall varies. In Los Angeles we get very few persistent contrails in the summer. And we get very little rain in the summer. Other places have different patterns.

This is another bit of well understood science that the chemtrail promoters ignore. They even say things like "they are spraying invisible chemtrails" during the summer."

I would agree that there are chemicals being sprayed that dessipate the clouds. I can upload pictures soon that show these trails cutting through clouds like a knife, and separating them the same way that oil separates itself from water. It is fine to say that the trails can make clouds and they are completely natural, i get it. But do not refute the fact that there is visible evidence, paired with sound understandings of physics, that prove some trails can outright stop clouds from forming.

Originally posted by Uncinus

Originally posted by chadderson
Then it is settled. Jet trails can cause clouds, and jet trails can also dessipate entirely. I guess i began spouting on for no real reason as you never indicated any disagreement.

Yes. The dissipation (or not) depends on the weather. That's why it only does it on some days of the year. That's also why it only does it at certain altitudes, and even just certain regions of the sky, as humidity varies.

But the important point here is that the chemtrail promoters are ignoring this, and essentially lying about it.

I'm just gonna My eyes don't lie. But, your books are FULL OF THEM!

Now, i'm gonna ask....how come people stopped talking about this; for the past 2 months? All of a sudden, you're gonna chime in??? Pah-lease!

Originally posted by chadderson
I would agree that there are chemicals being sprayed that dessipate the clouds. I can upload pictures soon that show these trails cutting through clouds like a knife, and separating them the same way that oil separates itself from water. It is fine to say that the trails can make clouds and they are completely natural, i get it. But do not refute the fact that there is visible evidence, paired with sound understandings of physics, that prove some trails can outright stop clouds from forming.

edit on 18-7-2012 by chadderson because: (no reason given)

Are you talking about distrails?

Also nothing new. Supercooled liquid clouds are disturbed by the passing jet wake, the water droplets freeze and fall.

Originally posted by SpittinTruth

Now, i'm gonna ask....how come people stopped talking about this; for the past 2 months?

Interesting you should ask. It seems that people do stop talking about it around this part of the year. Here's a thread from a few years back.
www.abovetopsecret.com...

Because persistent contrails are less common at this time of year. Because the atmospheric conditions are less conducive to their formation.

Here's a chart showing the monthly occurrence of new "chemtrail" threads.

Interestingly, the chart bears a striking resemblance to this chart showing the frequency of persistent contrail formation. journals.ametsoc.org...

Come the end of summer, expect to see an increase in "chemtrail" threads along with the increase in persistent contrails to be expected with cooler, damper weather.

Originally posted by SpittinTruth

Originally posted by Uncinus

Originally posted by chadderson
Then it is settled. Jet trails can cause clouds, and jet trails can also dessipate entirely. I guess i began spouting on for no real reason as you never indicated any disagreement.

Yes. The dissipation (or not) depends on the weather. That's why it only does it on some days of the year. That's also why it only does it at certain altitudes, and even just certain regions of the sky, as humidity varies.

But the important point here is that the chemtrail promoters are ignoring this, and essentially lying about it.

I'm just gonna

My eyes don't lie. But, your books are FULL OF THEM!

Full of persistent contrails? Yes they are, there's plenty of persistent contrails in old books about clouds. But I picked this Popular Science issue to illustrate the point as it's more readily available, and obviously not a fake. It only did it today because that's when my issue arrived from eBay. Coincidently it's a bit of a contrail day here in SoCal.

I still fear this topic has been deliberately diluted and twisted to what it is today.

Think about it this way, if there was a few planes, flying around spraying chemicals, how better to hide it, than start spreading ridiculousness rumors and control the direction of the "truth" movement before its created.

Disinfo is not a new tool, and there is no better way to hide something in plain sight , which it is, if there is any merit to it, because the movement that is supposed to uncover it, us bugged down with BS info and a idiotic approach to the issue.


It is infantile to believe that the atmosphere has not been weaponized.
Multiple military openly state that they use Chemtrails on military craft to hide them from radar.
The British experimented with cloud seeding as early as 1920
In the US and other countries, you can now hire companies for could seeding.
For military applications, than changing properties, for stealth, detection, deflection and other applications chemicals are used as stated earlier, so wonder what black budget projects are involved with chemicals in the atmosphere.
If they are indeed using HAARP technology on the public, than it would only be natural to seed the sky, to make it more responsive to the frequencies (remember IF they are )


So denying chem trails is as stupid as denying long lasting contrails, Chem trails are a FACT and have been for a while, the conversation as said, has somehow been twisted, to stupid BS babble about nothing relevant.

Sorry for rant, but this thread is really making me angry, we are supposed to deny ignorance and search for truth, but all i see is one faction bashing a less knowing faction of the same movement, for gods sake, teach them, enlighten them, don't look down on them or think you are better because you know. This is why there will be no revolution, people would rather rage and point out each other flaws, than helping the fellow man and enriching him where he is lacking, who knows, he may know something you don't.

Namaste

Originally posted by WiseThinker
I still fear this topic has been deliberately diluted and twisted to what it is today.

Think about it this way, if there was a few planes, flying around spraying chemicals, how better to hide it, than start spreading ridiculousness rumors and control the direction of the "truth" movement before its created.

I'm not spreading rumors. It's the chemtrail promoters that are spreading falsehoods. Why exactly is it wrong to point this out? People like Michael J. Murphy have thousands of followers. Don't they deserve to know that contrails do actually persist and spread? Don't they deserve to know they have been misled?

Look at this page:
www.facebook.com...

Post after post of photos of contrails. Isn't this the ignorance we should be denying?

reply to post by WiseThinker

Multiple military openly state that they use Chemtrails on military craft to hide them from radar.
The British experimented with cloud seeding as early as 1920

The use of chaff has nothing to do with what are current described as "chemtrails". It does not hide aircraft from radar, it distracts radar guided missiles so they chase the chaff rather than the aircraft.

Cloud seeding has nothing to do with what are currently described as "chemtrails". It does not create clouds.

If they are indeed using HAARP technology on the public, than it would only be natural to seed the sky, to make it more responsive to the frequencies (remember IF they are )

HAARP affects a small region of the ionosphere above Gakona, Alaska. A region of the ionosphere which is tens of miles higher than any jet aircraft can fly.

reply to post by WiseThinker

Sorry for rant, but this thread is really making me angry, we are supposed to deny ignorance and search for truth, but all i see is one faction bashing a less knowing faction of the same movement, for gods sake, teach them, enlighten them, don't look down on them or think you are better because you know.

It has been said time after time that if there is non refutable evidence that chemtrails exist then you would have a whole different debate then.

I think being called shills,trolls, dis info agents and other usual words from chemtrail believers in pretty much every thread is more debunker bashing than believer bashing.

reply to post by SpittinTruth

This, i would looooooove to hear an 'excuse' for.

There are areas of the globe that are almost never conducive to contrail fromation, like near the equator, and areas that are very conducive, like Antarctica. Just because your small view of the world had conditions favorable for no contrails, proves not, nor eludes to a "conspiracy" or "coincidence" , it only proves that you have a very narrow minded view of the world at large, and are not actually interested in answers, but are interested in associating with the hopeful "I told you so crowd" in the case that the chemtrail conspiracy ever gets any actual evidence.

This is not your fault though, many people feel frustrated with day to day flotsam, and want to know more, and usually start by looking into conspiracy theories. Thanks to the likes of Will Thomas, Carnicom, Michael Murphy, etc, and there ability to say things that sound "scientific", or in other words "dazzle with bs", people tend to buy into it.

If somebody like yourself were actually serious about this conspiracy, why not take a bit more proactive role in research rather than taking a few digital photos and regurgitating the same pseudo science chemtrail oil salesman would have you believe?

I saw 6 planes within 1/2 hour.

Whjy is 6 planes in a 1/2 hour exceptional? I live between Ontario Int, LAX, and Denver Int. and on busy nights see a plane in the same vector every 30 seconds.

They haven't been out in 2 months. Even stranger??? They were spraying non-stop on Christmas...and just about every day since....til about 2 months ago...when they stopped. And now, they're back.

So you have confirmed this? Try this out Flightaware

You can even see if the flights were in airspace conducive to contrail formation by cross referencing sites like Atmospheric Soundings and plotting the data on the Appleman chart.

You know what else is strange? All of a sudden...there have been 2 posts TODAY...regarding chemtrails/geo-engineering. What's up with that??? Why....today? Why the planes....why the discussion regarding these mysterious streaks you call: "lingering con-trails". All just a coincidence, right?

It might seem starnge if you have only been a member of ATS for less than a month, but there is an actual "chemtrail" forum here, where you can see for yourself that the discussion rages on with or without your acknowledgement.

Originally posted by Uncinus

Originally posted by WiseThinker
I still fear this topic has been deliberately diluted and twisted to what it is today.

Think about it this way, if there was a few planes, flying around spraying chemicals, how better to hide it, than start spreading ridiculousness rumors and control the direction of the "truth" movement before its created.

I'm not spreading rumors. It's the chemtrail promoters that are spreading falsehoods. Why exactly is it wrong to point this out? People like Michael J. Murphy have thousands of followers. Don't they deserve to know that contrails do actually persist and spread? Don't they deserve to know they have been misled?

Look at this page:
www.facebook.com...

Post after post of photos of contrails. Isn't this the ignorance we should be denying?

It's hotter today, than it was about a week ago. Matter of fact...it seems like my thermometer is stuck on 65 degrees. Also, tell me this....where have these planes been, over the past 2 months? NOT A SINGLE plane; nor a single trail....in 2 months??? Come on now. Let's me REALISTIC, at least.

reply to post by SpittinTruth

It's hotter today, than it was about a week ago. Matter of fact...it seems like my thermometer is stuck on 65 degrees.

I know you are fairly new here, but this has been covered time and time again.

The weather at ground level in no way, NO WAY reflects the weather at 30,000ft. +

reply to post by SpittinTruth

Also, tell me this....where have these planes been, over the past 2 months?

Did Phage not dumb it down enough for you, sometimes that helps.

Check his prior posts for the answer.

Originally posted by SpittinTruth
It's hotter today, than it was about a week ago. Matter of fact...it seems like my thermometer is stuck on 65 degrees. Also, tell me this....where have these planes been, over the past 2 months? NOT A SINGLE plane; nor a single trail....in 2 months??? Come on now. Let's me REALISTIC, at least.

The planes are still there, have a look at flightaware. They are just hard to see if they don't leave a contrail, for a variety of reasons:

contrailscience.com...

And the temperature on the ground has very little to do with the temperature at 35,000 feet. See, for example:
www.usairnet.com...
(66F on the ground, -45F at 34,000 feet, -65F at 39,000 feet, and 49mph winds).

reply to post by tsurfer2000h


Lets be clear, i am in no way calling you a dis info agent, nor am i calling you a shill or troll, nor have i denied the stupidity of a part of the chemtrail movement (nor am i involved in that movement).

I said, all this stupidity and the direction of the movement was ORIGINALITY created by disinfo.

I agree that their unwilingless to learn is nearly unbearable, but the op directly challanged the Chemtrail movement to reply, what was he expecting? this was going to be a bashing thread from the start.

Also im trying to bring, just a little balance to the argument, unless your intention is to have a onesided biased thread, just reaffirming you are right, and giving you a chance to bash at any one who accepts the "challange".

What a way to deny ignorance.

Namaste

Originally posted by WiseThinker
I agree that their unwilingless to learn is nearly unbearable, but the op directly challanged the Chemtrail movement to reply, what was he expecting? this was going to be a bashing thread from the start.

I want to raise the issue in order to force the chemtrail promoters to address it. Unfortunately it's hard to point out that someone is telling untruths without "bashing" them, because their inaction makes it look like they are deliberately lying.

Originally posted by Phage
reply to post by WiseThinker

 

Multiple military openly state that they use Chemtrails on military craft to hide them from radar.
The British experimented with cloud seeding as early as 1920

The use of chaff has nothing to do with what are current described as "chemtrails". It does not hide aircraft from radar, it distracts radar guided missiles so they chase the chaff rather than the aircraft.

Cloud seeding has nothing to do with what are currently described as "chemtrails". It does not create clouds.

If they are indeed using HAARP technology on the public, than it would only be natural to seed the sky, to make it more responsive to the frequencies (remember IF they are )

HAARP affects a small region of the ionosphere above Gakona, Alaska. A region of the ionosphere which is tens of miles higher than any jet aircraft can fly.

edit on 7/18/2012 by Phage because: (no reason given)

Wow, i never thought id see this, way to take all those points out of context.

They are examples of weaponizing the atmosphere as stated one line before you quote me
"It is infantile to believe that the atmosphere has not been weaponized. "


Ok i admit, i may have come of without aim:
My theory (Key word THEORY) here is :
Is the whole contrail vs chemtrail is but a distraction to the actual spraying of chemicals, keeping the movement from getting anywhere. im not denying the OP at all, im just not impressed with how its presented as a "Challange"

Of to bed now, ill check if the thread is still alive tomorrow.

Namaste