Deny Ignorance? An Experiment

This is the best kind of experiment. The kind where you don't have to do anything to participate.

Basically, this is an experiment to see whether knowledge presented to a given group will be applied.

The group, of course, will be made up of the ATS readership (yay!).

Seeing as how we mostly interact via the written word, this is pretty much the only way we can observe a change in the group knowledge base. By studying differences in how we write. This makes sense, no?

So, my premise is to drop a bit of knowledge here, nothing important, and see if it affects a change on the group.

I often see, while reading, the use of "must of", "should of", etc. The correct form is "must have", or the contraction "must've".

Not a big deal. The intent is still conveyed. I'm not being the grammer police, just giving information that applies to the way we interact here, the only place we can notice a difference on our group. If you want to still use "must of", have a day. It doesn't really bother me.


There must be, however, a percentage of people who, upon reading this nugget of information will say "why, I did not know that!", and will henceforth use the correct form when writing. It's easy to see how this could happen. When spoken, "must've" sounds almost identical to "must of". A simple error, easily made.

Now, for the last two weeks, I've been keeping a little checksheet when reading ATS. I just make a check every time I see the correct or incorrect usage. In the threads/posts I've read over that time, the incorrect usage is leading with a 5:1 ratio. Your milage may vary.

Now, if ignorance is truly denied here, over the next few weeks I would think that that ratio should show some sort of decrease. Just having the information made available to the group should result in said information being applied, if even to a limited degree.

So I'll continue my little checklist, and see if any change is affected. I'll post any results as I get them.

I know this isn't very scientific or anything. I was just curious.

So that's about it. You don't have to fill out a form, or do anything else. I don't want your credit card number.

The experiment is under way.

I'm also curious about why people keep using the word 'there' when it should be 'their'. It seems like a growing Internet meme.

Originally posted by XeroOne
I'm also curious about why people keep using the word 'there' when it should be 'their'. It seems like a growing Internet meme.

I make that mistake often just because I'm focused on what I want to say , more than the grammar.

I'm awful at proof reading as well, I'm still too focused on the message instead of the little missing words, improper usage of words,etc.

If that denotes my opinion or views as less than important, or from an inferior type intellect ,so be it.

I try not to judge the value of peoples opinions on their knowledge of grammar, or their inability to express themselves with words, in whatever language they are choosing to try and communicate in.

I am grateful when others don't judge my value and or "quality" of intelligence by grammar mistakes or missed words in a sentence.

reply to post by WhisperingWinds


I actually do consider everyone's views on whatever thread, and certainly don't discard them because of the odd spelling/grammar mistake. Every argument stands on its own merits.

At the risk of twisting this into a "pet peeves" thread: 100% of the uses of "toe the line" (or "toeing the line") I've seen since being here have been rendered as "tow the line" (or "towing the line"). Just as a matter of clarification, the phrase is a reference to showing obedience by an act of placing one's toes up against a rigid straight line....

Truth is. There are only a handful of people on ATS who actually make very good posts. I can name Slayer69 as one of those few people. But sadly, his threads only get about 50 or so replies while the ones pushing some type of agenda average around 1000+ replies. Slayer69 takes the time to research real questions that affect the real world.

A lot of the posts here have been news stories taken out of context, pushing partisan agendas, or just plain stupid videos that are really political advertisements from Grassroots campaigns. (This doesn't mean they are paid trolls just passionate people who want others to listen to their message) If you are on here to deny ignorance, then you shouldn't be easily swayed into any political agenda, right?

How many people truly deny ignorance here? That's an interesting question... I have tried to ask people on this site if they can see through their partisan agendas and realize what they are doing. None of them have admitted the fact. I admit all the time, that I support such and such political agenda, and yet, people yell at me on all sides of the political spectrum. Denying Ignorance to me, means setting aside your differences and being able to work together on something. Once one person does this, I expect others to follow. Nobody ever does.

When people on this site claim that the user base is intelligent, truth seeking people I literally laugh out loud! I am sorry, but this site has actually made more more of a skeptic about conspiracy theories. I no longer believe in massive conspiracy theories as I did when I was younger. Talking to the politically motivated and charged group of people here, made me realize that they were just like everybody else, maybe even a bit more gullible. Some, take everything on this site with a grain of truth. Remember that old saying? Don't believe everything you read on the internet? The people on this site might have never heard that phrase, or anything posted in the general conspiracy section seems like a real story, so they don't FACT check it.

Whenever I make a very good post that goes against all people's partisan agendas, it gets very little support from the user base who claim they want to deny ignorance. I have even made a few political debunking threads, or try to follow the primaries. Once people lose interest, or their political candidate of choice drops out, a bunch of support is lost from the user base on this site.

But I guess that's the way life works. Are you the man we should go to, to figure out if this site truly denies ignorance or not? Maybe you have a very sophisticated study that will yield results. But for those of us, who truly DO deny ignorance, we already know the answer

OP, come back! This thread is in danger of becoming a rant bomb, without some moderation.

Did you abandon it? Do you want to re-state your premise? Is your work here done?

reply to post by Ex_CT2


Rant Bomb? There's three other posts here besides yours and mine.

Settle down, the OP may be busy, have a life outside the internet, or posting on other threads....

Looks like the thread's becoming too hard core for Ex_CT2.

The fact people are stating correct grammar is not considered as part of the, "argument," is indicative of the sad state of affairs. A person who has a meaningful point will find the meaningful way of expressing the point. Lack of effort to do this would indicate a lack of substance and would prompt me to," pay no attention to the man behind the curtain."

Thanks for talking me down, guys. Boy, I was about to panic there for a minute. I'll be OK now. Just give me a few minutes to get my head on straight.

OK. I'm good....

reply to post by Ex_CT2


Odds Bodki man they'll be on you like piranha.Never show weakness.
Just tell the truth,as you understand it.

As a sworn officer,





I am on board with an experiment of this sort. I feel that grammar police, more often than not, are being misconstrued as judgmental and perhaps often times condescending when it comes to their tactics of grammar correcting for the greater good. This problem is widespread and exponentially growing with the evolution of our communicative resources, primarily the internet. Grammar Police are merely in a battle for the correct use of syntax within a given language despite the resource.

If more emphasis were to be made and the excuses that are allowed to prevail were met headstrong the issue of improper grammar use would begin to take a turn for the better. The correct use of grammar is quite important imo and personally I will continue the fight as long as the problem persists. It is an epidemic that must be eradicated.

For your viewing pleasure and if you feel so inclined, this is a small video of what someone may take away from a post on ATS if it were to be written in kind. Unfortunately, I have seen a number of posts written as such.



Video Description: Youtube member giving blatant examples of improper grammar usage.

Originally posted by Ex_CT2
At the risk of twisting this into a "pet peeves" thread: 100% of the uses of "toe the line" (or "toeing the line") I've seen since being here have been rendered as "tow the line" (or "towing the line"). Just as a matter of clarification, the phrase is a reference to showing obedience by an act of placing one's toes up against a rigid straight line....

edit on 7/8/2012 by Ex_CT2 because: (no reason given)

I didn't know about the "toeing the line" explanation you just gave. It makes sense to me though, since we did plenty of that in boot camp lol. I never heard my drill instructor say "toe the line" though.

"Towing the line" still makes sense to me as in "compensating for someone else's slack" (like a tug boat), which is different than demonstrating obedience.

On the topic of the thread:
I like the idea of this experiment, and my hypothesis is that we will be lucky to observe even a small change.

Originally posted by wagnificent

Originally posted by Ex_CT2
At the risk of twisting this into a "pet peeves" thread: 100% of the uses of "toe the line" (or "toeing the line") I've seen since being here have been rendered as "tow the line" (or "towing the line"). Just as a matter of clarification, the phrase is a reference to showing obedience by an act of placing one's toes up against a rigid straight line....

edit on 7/8/2012 by Ex_CT2 because: (no reason given)

I didn't know about the "toeing the line" explanation you just gave. It makes sense to me though, since we did plenty of that in boot camp lol. I never heard my drill instructor say "toe the line" though.

"Towing the line" still makes sense to me as in "compensating for someone else's slack" (like a tug boat), which is different than demonstrating obedience.

On the topic of the thread:
I like the idea of this experiment, and my hypothesis is that we will be lucky to observe even a small change.

Well, that's exactly the problem. It's arguable that it makes sense, which is why people never look it up. For instance, "for all intensive purposes"; we've all heard and seen that one. It makes sense to the writer. They don't know what it means--but they've seen a thousand other people use it, so it must make sense. How they haven't seen a thousand other people correctly write "for all intents and purposes" is the greater mystery, though....

reply to post by cavtrooper7


Thanks, man. But my attempt at humor didn't go over too well from the start, so I had to play it off. Sometimes you hit a clinker....

Whether or not this experiment results in a positive (or negative) change I like the idea behind it. We all make mistakes. I've found (and always corrected) spelling errors on my own Web site sometimes years after I make them. I appreciate having those errors pointed out when it's done politely (and I wish I'd caught it myself much sooner or that I could afford to pay a copy editor to review all my writing before publishing).

Correct -- not necessarily excruciatingly proper -- grammar and good spelling aid in communication. Part of denying ignorance is being able to communicate news, information, and ideas. And communication is clearest when it's not filled with distractions and confusion caused by the wrong words, missing words, lack of punctuation, or an excess of text-speak.

I liked that funny video posted in this thread. Comments on blogs, Facebook, YouTube and other such venues are both hilarious and sad. I can agree that sometimes we all get in a rush and don't proofread enough or we post in haste only to discover that a certain blog doesn't have editing options. But I think the larger culprit is the level of education. I don't mean whether or not you dropped out of high school or not but that our schools (and parents too -- I am a home school teacher) are failing to teach and model good communication skills.

I can only speak about and to those who speak and write English as their first language. English postings by those who don't normally speak or write in English sometimes take a little more effort to understand but that's OK. As someone who speaks only one language I admire them and don't usually mind the mistakes. It's far better than I could do in their language.

Originally posted by XeroOne
I'm also curious about why people keep using the word 'there' when it should be 'their'. It seems like a growing Internet meme.

I'm guessing there are a lot of members with English as their second language, so I try to just let go of spelling errors.

What I can't stand is when people are so lazy that they can't reach ALL the way over to the shift key to start each sentence with a capital letter. Makes me wonder if they're so lazy they'll eat candy without taking off the wrapper.

Originally posted by jiggerj

Originally posted by XeroOne
I'm also curious about why people keep using the word 'there' when it should be 'their'. It seems like a growing Internet meme.

I'm guessing there are a lot of members with English as their second language, so I try to just let go of spelling errors.

What I can't stand is when people are so lazy that they can't reach ALL the way over to the shift key to start each sentence with a capital letter. Makes me wonder if they're so lazy they'll eat candy without taking off the wrapper.

I do that , and its not laziness, just terrible typing skills. I also type letters inverted often, as in dyslexic typing.

This thread is starting to make me feel like nothing is good enough , and unless you can communicate via text without mistakes, you just aren't worth listening to.

I'm grateful not everyone jumps to conclusions about the reasons behind grammar mistakes.

Originally posted by WhisperingWinds

Originally posted by jiggerj

Originally posted by XeroOne
I'm also curious about why people keep using the word 'there' when it should be 'their'. It seems like a growing Internet meme.

I'm guessing there are a lot of members with English as their second language, so I try to just let go of spelling errors.

What I can't stand is when people are so lazy that they can't reach ALL the way over to the shift key to start each sentence with a capital letter. Makes me wonder if they're so lazy they'll eat candy without taking off the wrapper.

I do that , and its not laziness, just terrible typing skills. I also type letters inverted often, as in dyslexic typing.

This thread is starting to make me feel like nothing is good enough , and unless you can communicate via text without mistakes, you just aren't worth listening to.

I'm grateful not everyone jumps to conclusions about the reasons behind grammar mistakes.

edit on 8-7-2012 by WhisperingWinds because: (no reason given)

It's not a matter of screwing up a sentence every now and then, it's a matter of people brought up in English speaking countries, but writing at first grade level.