What you're doing wrong in an interview... and in your life.

reply to post by MidnightTide

Microsoft employs 92,000 people.
Apple, Inc. employs 60,400 people.
Facebook, Inc. employs 3539 people.

So, because Bill Gates built on Steve Jobs' work, because Steve Jobs was a taskmaster, because Mark Zuckerberg hacked into his school computer to start his prototype site, would you put 155,939 people out of work? How about the thousands of software companies that exist because Gates standardized the computer market?

I am not a huge fan personally of any of those people. I do, however, believe that they performed a service and produced products that people willingly paid for. That means they deserve their money. None of their employees were forced to take those jobs; all of them actually had to apply before being hired. No one has ever been forced to buy or use any of their products; all of them who did so paid money to have the product or chose to accept the terms and conditions to use the service.

How exactly is it wrong to give people something they obviously want?

TheRedneck

reply to post by MidnightTide


Of course not! There are a ton of great employees that have no desire to be supervisors, but do a hell of a job day in and day out, and it is hard to reward those people. They are extremely appreciated, but without the promotion opportunity and with raise money being on lockdown for the last 4 or 5 years, it becomes increasingly difficult to show the good employees how much you appreciate them.

I haven't had a raise in 7 years either, and for the last 3 years they have actually lowered my takehome pay by raising my contribution to health insurance, and raising my contribution to the pension fund. (I know I criticized pension funds earlier, but that's how my employer does it, I'd rather have that money in my check to invest myself, but it is what it is.) During that same time, I have had to fire a single mother of 3, and a couple of other young people just trying to get by. I did everything I could professionally, and personally to help them, but at some point the needs of the employer and all the other employees outweigh the needs of the one underperforming. It became a choice of firing them, or losing some of the better employees due to low morale and low budget.

It is never an easy decision to fire someone, especially when you know about their personal situation.

reply to post by ColeYounger

1. Expecting me (and nearly everyone else there) to perform the work of 3-4 people

I keep hearing that (and even used to say it), but I have yet to actually see it. Oh, I thought I did, but the very idea makes no sense. If you are one person "performing the work of four people", then those four people you are performing the work of are only performing one-quarter the work you do, which is by definition the work of one person.

Actually, it usually means someone doesn't want to give a full day's work. Instead they want to be paid by the movement than by the hour, and pace themselves based on how much they think they should be making. That's fine, and we even have a name for it: subcontracting. Start subcontracting and you will be paid for exactly what you do. Otherwise, if someone gets an hour's pay and they haven't performed their best for that hour, they are a thief. They took money for a service they did not provide.

I personally like subcontracting. I like the freedom and responsibility that comes with it, and I usually can do pretty well in that situation. It's one of the options I am considering.

2. Scapegoating workers for company problems when the company was too damn greedy to
spend the resources to properly train the workers.

Yeah, that's a big problem. But it also tends to bite the company in the butt sooner rather than later. That company has bosses too: whoever they contracted with or whoever they are selling to. When the quality drops, they lose business, and when they lose enough business, they are out of business.

3. Endlessly promoting vicious, egomaniacal and downright psychopathic personality types into management positions

That one is closely related to the last point. And I agree with you there as well.

One thing I look for the moment I walk into a business to apply for a job is the workers already there. Are they smiling? Are they frowning? Are they rushed and do they look fatigued? That glance tells me real quick what kind of company I am applying to, and makes a huge impact on my decision whether or not to work for them.

Note that last part: MY decision. It's a two-way street. I can say no just as easily as they can, and I have on multiple occasions. Just don't say that out loud in the interview.

4. Taking workers who have, for 3-4 decades, displayed every single one of these traits which you demand, and kicking them out the door because they put a little crimp in the precious "bottom line".

Absolutely, and I think there are labor laws that actually restrict that. I know one of the things that unions have accomplished that is a very good thing is the concept of seniority. While it can be (and has been) used to keep undesirables in a job to the detriment of the company, it also provides some protection for long-term employees about to retire. If that retirement is a part of the job offer, it belongs to them and they deserve it.

Good points.

TheRedneck

reply to post by MidnightTide

Like how all the business owners in this thread get their panties in a bunch when the employee expects a little in return.

Ummm... what about that little slip of paper you take to the bank every Friday? Is that not something in return?

I always thought that was the reason someone worked in the first place. Suddenly hiring an employee is looking much less expensive!

TheRedneck

reply to post by TheRedneck

One thing I look for the moment I walk into a business to apply for a job is the workers already there. Are they smiling? Are they frowning? Are they rushed and do they look fatigued? That glance tells me real quick what kind of company I am applying to, and makes a huge impact on my decision whether or not to work for them.

Me too, and every potential employee should learn to look for the morale of the institution before they make their decision.

Personally though, I'm usually being hired as a supervisor in an underperforming environment, so I love to see low morale, because it is one of the simplest things to fix, and it directly impacts performance, and I get to look like a hero in short order! Sometimes it means getting rid of the rotten apples, sometimes it means giving more clear instruction and better feedback on what is right or wrong, and sometimes it just means being present and noticing good work, or opening up some windows, or getting some better supplies, or something very simple. Sometimes a box of donuts goes a lot farther than anyone realizes! So, when I go in for an interview as a manager or supervisor, and I see those sullen faces and low expectations, it makes me excited. I know I can fix that right away, and I know all those problems the company is facing will fix themselves, and I'll look like a genius.

I also know the employees will appreciate it, and I know I'll be helping them have a better work experience which rolls over into their overall happiness when away from work. Those low-morale, under-performing entities are one of my favorite challenges, because I love to help people, and I love to win, and I get both out of those!

Now, if I were going in for an interview for an entry level position, and I saw the same faces, I would run away! Nothing more frustrating than knowing how to fix things, but not having the opportunity or support to actually pull it off. That is a terrible feeling, and a terrible way to spend your days.

reply to post by MidnightTide

No, not everyone is a poor worker. Enough are, however, that it makes it hard on those of us who are not.

I was born into this world with nothing. I learned how things work and applied myself. Everything I have I got because I did that. I worked in great jobs with fabulous employers, and I worked in jobs where I actually preferred having the flu to going in to work. I have hired workers I considered wonderful, and some I wish I could forget. Through all that, I made deals to work for others, for others to work for me, and to work alongside others. I kept my end up on every deal, or I suffered the consequences.

All I expect is for others to do the same. They did not give me things I did not deserve, and I believe it is the height of disrespect for someone to expect me to now give them something they do not deserve.

What a worker deserves is, simply put, what they agreed to. No more, no less. What a person deserves is another matter, and there are disrespectful people in every nook and crevice of society. It is a shame that so many such people wind up in middle management, but when the workers take the attitude they will just slow the work or complain all the time, or start demanding extras, it starts a downward spiral. I see these stories about how businesses are now legally obligated to provide x, or how there are groups lobbying for workers to get x, etc. So when I sit across the desk from an applicant the next day, that is fresh in my mind. Is this person going to cause me trouble? Is this person going to try to take what's mine? Is this person going to take my money and do as little as possible for it?

When you attack employers, even if your intent is to attack only the 'bad' ones, you have attacked all of them. And we will protect ourselves, even if that means making it harder on you to make sure you can't attack us. Every time someone posts about how evil CEOs are and how businesses should be forced to provide something for their employees, it tells me that I better be careful hiring!

I'll agree with you that both employees and employers are responsible for problems. But neither side gains when one side gets attacked. It only escalates the problem.

TheRedneck

Originally posted by TheRedneck
reply to post by MidnightTide

Like how all the business owners in this thread get their panties in a bunch when the employee expects a little in return.

Ummm... what about that little slip of paper you take to the bank every Friday? Is that not something in return?

I always thought that was the reason someone worked in the first place. Suddenly hiring an employee is looking much less expensive!

TheRedneck

Yes it is, but your little list in your opening makes it appear that all employees are a bunch of whining little crybabies who have their thumbs in their mouths looking for a handout. How about some integrity, honestly and a little loyalty from the employer.

I am sorry you appear to have had some bad luck with hiring people, but not every employee is some lazy sad sack of crap.


reply to post by TheRedneck


Yes, attack one you attack all, but you made the same error with your opening.

reply to post by TheRedneck


I think you are largely a minority with regards to your expentations. Most corporations nowadays simply want to ride a person like a dog for as long as they can. "work the dog" Most employees would not hesitate to sue the crap out of said employers. There is no agreement, there are no consensions. Each side is looking out for themselves, and the corporate side is obviously winning that battle. THAT's where the problem is.

I like your outline though. If circumstances like that existed in plentiful numbers, I think unemployment would not be a problem.

reply to post by getreadyalready

One place I used to work for had a monthly dinner for all the employees. We would take a vote on where we wanted to eat and just show up. These were not fast food joints, either... Shogun, Steak&Ale, Olive Gardens, etc. The boss would pay. There were usually about ten of us there any one month, and the meals would run maybe $50 each. So for $500 here's what he got:

• It was one of the lower-paying jobs I ever had in that field, and I never thought about complaining. I did get raises, but still below what I could get elsewhere. SO figure he saved about $50 a week per employee, and he had about 25 employees: that's $5000 a month in payroll.
  
  
• We got to know each other, outside of work. We went into the office and it was almost like a family reunion. If someone had an issue with a job, the boss was only bothered if none of us could figure it out, because we were always helping each other.
  
  
• We recommended that company to new customers, regularly.
  
  
• We recommended that company to good designers, and tried to keep the poor ones from applying.

That's a pretty good return on investment, wouldn't you think?

I finally left to take a management position... almost twice the pay, my own office, supervisor over the engineering section, a serious feather in my cap... and it broke my heart to tell the guy I had the job offer. I almost turned down the management job!

TheRedneck

reply to post by MidnightTide

If I gave that impression in my OP, then accept my apologies. My intent was to show errors that a lot of people make, in order for others to perhaps improve their position.

Of course, the discussion has deepened since then.

If you will go back over this thread in more detail, you will see where I have praised employees, offered one a full partnership after he earned it, and where I have even indicted myself in some of the things I mention as problems. I honestly do not see where I gave the impression that all workers were lazy, although I could see where it could be perhaps interpreted that a majority are naive.

Perhaps we can make some progress on consolidating our respective positions this way: what are your definitions of "integrity, honestly and a little loyalty" as they relate to an employer?

TheRedneck

Great post! I will probably be in a position to hire a new assistant in my department later this year, and I can tell you, I will much prefer the older worker with specific experience working in my field to the younger employee with no experience but a brand new shining PhD. And believe me, the PhD candidate will think he or she deserves top preference, but it simply does not work that way. I'd rather hire someone who had the experience over the schooling.

For people on the front lines of an industry doing the hiring, experience is the key thing. Come prepared to a job interview really understanding the mechanics of how a job is done, and be able to show me what you have done practically in your life that illustrates your experience. Fudging won't work, neither will "kinda sorta know it." There may be lots of jobs that require no experience, but there are also lots of jobs that need experinced workers. In my mind, again, I'm going to be looking for an older, mature person with some experience under their belt.

If you don't have experience in your chosen field, then volunteer to do work for free, so you can get that experience down on your resume. Yes, I said "for free." That's what I did to get "oiled" in my field, and it has paid itself over several times in later years. I didn't mind doing it, because I loved the work, and I felt identified with it from a young age. If you're young, don't hesitate to offer your skills for free to people who can use them, and keep a careful record of how you used your skills in real-life situations, even if they are unpaid. For example, if you help someone build a barn or clean a boat or prepare their taxes, that's something that ought to go on your resume.

"know your place"

"I don't want a yes man"

yeah

not going to be taking advice from you, lol

reply to post by Thaxter

GREAT advice!

I know that when I started as a draftsman way way back when, the first thing I did was to do a few sets of plans for free. After that I started raising prices until I was competitive. I got the freedom to screw up a little (hey, you're getting it for free and I'll fix it) until I learned the details, I got great recommendations from the people I worked for, and I had my tools all ready to go when the paid jobs started up. I also had an opportunity to learn what people liked and didn't like about how plans were prepared, and was able to implement a new process that saved people money and gave them more control over their design at the same time.

Later on, that would turn into a secondary income, then a large part of my business... the one that had the Alabama Architects Association all up in arms over the 'competition'.

Again, great advice!

TheRedneck

reply to post by Moneyisgodlifeisrented


Having to monitor, oversee, and train an employee constantly would be a disaster for me and for our work processes. Perhaps there are some who will look only for "show and glitz" in a person, but I sure will not. I want the experience, that's a hard and cold fact. And I'd even welcome someone who was more experienced than I was so I could learn from them in doing my own work.

It's sad that so many people are hiring underqualified persons. We had a director who was extremely inept and incompetent, and he would always hire the interns after their internship was up if they were reasonable docile and didn't offend him in any way. As a result, the office slowly became infiltrated with yes-men, people who did not know enough about the business to be able to threaten the director in any meaningful way. Thank god that director is now gone, and we have a new director who seems eager to hire well-experienced hands to rectify the failing business.

reply to post by getreadyalready


I have found that if you're just honest and friendly then usually an interview will go your way as long as you're actually qualified for the job to begin with. I reached a turning point when I realized I fair much better in an interview if I don't plan it out and I just behave naturally and politely towards the interviewer.

Originally posted by Evolutionsend
reply to post by TheRedneck

 

I think you are largely a minority with regards to your expentations. Most corporations nowadays simply want to ride a person like a dog for as long as they can. "work the dog" Most employees would not hesitate to sue the crap out of said employers. There is no agreement, there are no consensions. Each side is looking out for themselves, and the corporate side is obviously winning that battle. THAT's where the problem is.

I like your outline though. If circumstances like that existed in plentiful numbers, I think unemployment would not be a problem.

It is up to us to destroy those big corporate dog-riders. We shouldn't accept jobs there, we shouldn't shop there, we shouldn't allow them to drive out the smaller competitors.

Stop buying Chinese, stop shopping at Walmart, stop buying stuff that is shipped across the country or across the world. Your dollar is at least 4 times more powerful if you spend it with someone who keeps it in your community. Imagine if we all did that!! We'd have more jobs available locally, and more money available locally, and less intrusion by these giant dog-riding corporations.

BUT, as long as we accept the menial wages, to get worked like a dog, and then we turn around and spend our money at the very corporations creating that environment, then we'll just help them expand, and all the good employers like TheRedneck will just end up working next to you at the cashier line in Walmart.

Its up to us.

Originally posted by J34NF1C0
reply to post by getreadyalready

 

I have found that if you're just honest and friendly then usually an interview will go your way as long as you're actually qualified for the job to begin with. I reached a turning point when I realized I fair much better in an interview if I don't plan it out and I just behave naturally and politely towards the interviewer.

That is wonderful if you have the confidence, and vocabulary, and mindset for it, but a lot of very qualified people freeze up in interviews. They struggle for words that they normally know, and they can't think of examples to give on the spot, but they think of them later as they drive home.

For a lot of people it is paramount to get prepared ahead of time, but if you can wing it and be successful, then great!

reply to post by TheRedneck

Great thread RedNeck! And a very important issue these days.

It is kind of ironic that I stumbled on this thread because I JUST finished interviewing for a job last Friday night. Night, you ask? Well this is where the "if they like you" part comes in.

The current job market is flooded with prospective new hires and your chances are less than ever if you do not shine above and beyond the others. There are many with out there that will have the same experience as you and the simple fact is that they are going to choose the person that will fit in the best. In other words... If they like you!

I am a prime example. I have had many jobs and been through hundreds of interviews. My field of expertise has taken me all over the country to work. I didn't really go on vacation. I picked where I wanted to go and moved there and got a job because I always knew that my skills would be sure fire to get me in the door. That all changed since 08'!

There are dozens and dozens of people just like me looking at the same potential job.

This was probably the most extensive interview process that I have ever been through. They knew I had the skills but they wanted to be sure that I could fit into the company.

The first interview was the official meet and greet and go over the resume. Then an hour and a half of how I would handle situations that might arise, personal flaws, short comings, technical skills, how I would handle in company problems, etc... Hundreds of questions.

You are exactly correct to shut up in between questions and let them handle it. It speaks volumes about someone if they speak volumes. Uncomfortable silences are rough but necessary. So keep your mouth shut and answer the questions!

Then the HR dept. said they would send me an email to take an online personality test. This was a very good idea in my eyes. They wanted a little more of the true you. The test was designed that they know if you are making things up to try to shine. Honesty is what they expect and the only way to truly 'pass' the test. There was no pass or fail, but just a size up. Turns out that my 'personality test' results made me a perfect fit for the position I was applying for. It stung to answer some of them honestly but payed off in the end.

The next interview was to meet with the owner and go over some more technical abilities, then physical and drug screen. While some jobs don't require this, these days it is almost a mandatory. So if you have a problem, clean yourself up so that you can handle any situation that might arise.

Then Friday night was the final interview, They invited me to dinner with the owner, his wife (HR), their children, my supervisor and wife. The point was to see how I would handle myself in a social situation when you might let your guard down. This was the final straw. I will say that I felt right at home like we were old friends and aced it all. Not being fake but honestly getting along with them. They are offering me a new chance at life and we will spend much time together and it is A MUST that we get along.

They had asked at the end of the dinner if I had any more questions. I said "just one, when can I start?" After a couple of whispers between the owner and his wife (HR), they said we will send you a formal offer letter and you can come in Monday morning! Tomorrow is my first day at the next phase of my life.

So moral of the story, there are lots of folks out there, the demand is great but the supply is short and if you don't fit in, your chances are nil.

I used to take things for granted because I am good at what I do and got a little cocky about it. My mistake.

reply to post by TheRedneck


I only starred your post because that is how I used to feel as an employer. Truth is, from my experience, s*it happens and not all employees can abide by your standards. Sure it helps to have your nice and easy to read company policies/procedures, but really all your company boils down to are the employees running it, which management in large multinational corporations would probably disagree with.

So anyways, from my experience it's best to have your hiring process down to screen your applicants first before hiring some idiots and then ranting about the hiring mistake later. If you are certain you hired the right person for the job(s) then review your existing company policies/procedures to make sure your employees can understand what their function/role in the daily operations of the company are. =)

reply to post by TheRedneck

Any chance of a job mate,i fit that criteria.
Anyway i work in the hospitality industry and we interview by something called a star system whereby a lot of clever questions are asked to look for clever answers,it's not worth a dogs dinner.One of the main aspects in my particular field is that you can move at a fast pace physically,if you don't have that forget it.Your practicality in what your looking for is basic common sense.
There are too many interview procedures nowadays run by corporate entities that see lazy bone idle selfish people walk into a job they are not fit for.And then cry the house down when you turn up the heat a notch because they are not doing they're part and yet people around them are quietly doing twice as much because of them.I wish i had my own company sometimes these prima donnas would be gone in a heartbeat.