US representitives go to WTO over Airbus (must be time for another slapping)

US Trade representitives actually said the commercial arrangements between Airbus and the European governmentss were "unfair".

(....no doubt he then followed this up with crying his eyes out, wetting himself and then in an overwhelming loss of control soiling himself completely.)

Oh dear. How embarrassing.

www.reuters.com...

You can't half tell it's election year, huh? Hmmm, why this year, why right now?

Bush & Co. attempt to patronise the US worker with a load of idiotic tosh which (yet again) will go nowhere and which chooses to ignore the soft contracts, 'research grants' and all the rest that goes on (did anyone mention Boeing frauds yet! lol).

Funny how Europe's loan arrangements are so much worse than the actual gratis subsidy the US gov manages to give it's industry.

Still it lets them claim they're doing something about it seeing as this will not even come before the WTO until late next year (05).

Was the Sex Pistols line ever more appropriate? "Ever had the feeling you've been cheated?"....by your own (supposedly incredibly patriotic) gov?

screw america, screw boeing! they've been releasing basically the same junk in the civilian area for years at least airbus is trying to bring some innovation to a rather plain market.

I severely doubt that Boeing's BWB and hypersoar projects will get off the ground. I think it will be upto airbus to innovate again. Though i must commend the 7E7 but it doesn't go far enough

I'm glad boeing's sat up and paying attention to the already successful A380.

It will be a great day indeed when boeing is no2 and Airbus is no1

A380 rules!

regards,
drfunk

Don't worry drfunk you will know arbus is no 1 when the ground gets cold and it stars snowing in deep mines. After all it will be the same day hell freezes over.

Originally posted by mwm1331
Don't worry drfunk you will know arbus is no 1 when the ground gets cold and it stars snowing in deep mines. After all it will be the same day hell freezes over.

Looks like it's already cooling down in hell.
In four of the past five years, Airbus has taken more than 50% of the orders for 100+ seater planes.

In 2003, Airbus won 284 new firm orders from 24 customers, representing a share of 54 percent in the category of aircraft above 100 seats. Based on catalogue prices, the value of these transactions amounts to US dollars 32.8 billion, which represents 67 percent of the value of the total orders. Taking into account 30 cancellations, which were essentially due to one carrier cancelling an order for a particular Airbus model and ordering another one, the net order intake of 254 orders still gives Airbus a market share of 52 percent and a 65 percent share of the total transactions revenues. These results are in line with the trend set five years ago, with Airbus gaining more than 50 percent of all orders in four out of the five years. link

Originally posted by drfunk
screw america, screw boeing

DRfunk, if you make such comments again I will report you to the moderaters, do not make such comments on this board.

BBC also have an article on this: here

Reading the 1992 agreement, the loans the EU gives Airbus are completely legal given that no stipulation was placed on loan period limits or terms. And also Boeing is being supported directly and indirectly, through military grants and subsidies and NASA project subsidies (money received from the US government for these uses would be perfectly legal if Boeing didnt cross subsidise its own departments, but it does and thus these payments are technically illegal under the 1992 agreement as it specifically mentions subsidies between disparate departments).

Basically, as someone else has said, its a US election year, expect much more crying over things like this.

drfunk
I think it will be upto airbus to innovate again.

What innovations has Airbus made?

As of yet there copping boeing planes, The A-380 is the only thing that sepperates them but even that you could say that all they did was "finish" the 747, by making the 2nd floor complete and not just in the front.

Oh murcielago, I really shouldn't get drawn in but I can't help myself!

In what way have Airbus EVER copied a Boeing? Maybe the 1972 A300 was a copy of the 1982 767? No, even you cannot think that.

The A300 was the worlds first wide body twin and introduced a completely new class of airliner between the bigger Tristar and smaller 707 whilst crucifying the running costs of a 707 in the process, neat trick.

This was followed up with the A310, a smaller version of the A300 so that wasn't a copy.

Next you had the A320, the worlds first airliner with FBW controls and the first all new narrow twin since the 757 which was bigger so it wasn't a copy of that.

A318, A319 and A321 are all versions of the A320.

A330 and A340 were completely redesigned versions of the A300 for different requirements so no copy again.

A350 is going to be the new generation A330 so nope again and if you think that the A380 looks ANYTHING like the 747 you need your eyes testing, it doesn't just extend the top deck as you say but is completely different all over.

Incidental question that has occurred to me before, but which this has reminded me of;

Why do people on here say that aircraft that are vaguely similar to another are copies of it? Is it because they don't know as much about aircraft as they like to think or maybe they are not very good at aircraft identification?

Originally posted by Murcielago
What innovations has Airbus made?

Here's a few from the Airbus site:

SOME OF AIRBUS� �FIRSTS�
In 1977, the A300 was the first aircraft to be equipped with Cat IIIA autoland, a system allowing
the aircraft to land in conditions of very poor visibility.

In 1985, the A310-300 was the first commercial airliner to feature drag-reducing wingtip devices,
which have since become an industry standard. It also marked the introduction of composites in
primary structures and was the first sub-sonic civil airliner to embody trim tank/centre of gravity
control.

In 1988, the A320 was the first commercial aircraft to enter service with an electronically
managed flight control system (�fly-by-wire�) and a side stick controller.

It's only a few, I'm sure that Boeing has made more innovations to the industry.

I dont mean 100% exact copy, I meant that Airbus (that i've seen) doesn't have big plans for the future, Boeing is a huge company that launches rocket, builds commercial aircraft, and military planes. They have a bright future because of it, they have the BWB for there future passenger plane, What does Airbus have in the works?

[edit on 6-10-2004 by Murcielago]

You did actually say that they only copy Boeing, what then did you mean by that?

The BWB is, at present, fantasy. Such designs have been around for two decades and it is doubtful that any BWB design will be accepted by civil operators, look at the resistance in the corporate sector when Beech tried to shake things up with the revolutionary Starship 1. If the BWB is ever built it will first have to prove itself with the USAF then airlines might start to come around but all the publicity for the BWB is just Boeings way of diverting attention away from the fact that they (through their own choice) don't have a rival to the A380. Sure, they don't want one but if the US media or general public start to ask why 'we' haven't got anything like that they can turn around and say 'but look at this!' and people will go away happy.

The first A380 is under construction and the A350 will follow about four years hence, what do you mean 'in the pipeline'? The A400 will be underway very soon and that will be a majoe programme, these are real programmes with customers not 'smoke and mirrors' designs like the Sonic Cruiser and BWB.

[edit on 6-10-2004 by waynos]

The BWB is a concept that Ive seen Boeing throw around for at least 20 years, it was 'old marketing' when I first read it way back when i was 8 or 9. Just like their 'sonic cruiser' its destined to stay in the distant future for a while yet, indeed if its ever realised as a project.

Airbus does not copy Boeing. The A380 is going to be the first triple passenger deck aircraft in civil use, whereas the 747 is double deck only (the A380 has lower deck capacity for toilets, lounges etc in the final designs for quite a few airline orders). Airbus has had some fairly significant firsts, as someone else pointed out. Infact Airbus looked at a BWB aircraft for the A380 project before dropping the idea as impractical and unworkable.

Of course Boeing is a huge company, its main customer is the largest spending military in the world. But if its really so big, with so many things Airbus need to copy, why does airbus command 54% of the civil orders for the past year? Boeing have been surviving for a number of years solely on their military contracts (and looking at the JSF, they arent doing too good there either), indeed they havent had a new civil aircraft design since 1989.

Europe has a policy of not putting all its eggs into one basket. Airbus handles civil (even tho it is bidding for the A400 transport aircraft at the moment), ESA handles launches, and its new Ariane5 is quite a spectacular vehicle. Boeing hasnt yet managed to bring even one of its military contracts in under the amount it bid for. I hate to say it, but Boeing has lost its competitive edge.

As for the 7E7 Dreamliner. Fancy concept, just one problem. Its a 200 seater aircraft and Boeing are looking to steal the 767/A330 replacement market. Both those aircraft are 300+ seater. In the day and age where airline competitiveness is based on number of persons flown on a particular route, does Boeing sincerly expect airlines to buy 3 7E7s to replace 2 767/A330s, especially as a A350 is expected to cost the same to buy and run as the 7E7 ($120million USD) and have 70 more seats? The 7E7 was designed off the back of one single 50 plane guarenteed order, not a market request. THe A350 may be overall less efficient, but it carries more people, which balances the efficiency out as its based on plane flight stats.

The 7E7 will hold around 200-300 passengers, depending on what version of it you in.

I know that the BWB isn't brand new, So you dont think it will ever get made? I personally would say No, But its nice to know that there working on a airliner that isn't considered to be the norm. Does Airbus have any radically different plane designs in mind? New style or propulsion?

On my previous statements while typing them I started thinking about more and more stuff and started relizing that its been to damn long since we have had something really different in passenger jets. I guess getting a little "antzy" about it all, like they put money in every year and a new jet comes out and its not all that different, so in other words i'm just a little annoyed at the current airliner industry.

Competition is usually good so I hope this makes Boeing kick it up a notch. I like the 7E7 but the biggest thing isn't comfort, in fact you wouldn't need much comfort unless your on the plane awhile, which is what I want to change, we need faster planes, and nothing Boeing or Airbus has offered is good enough.

RichardPrice
indeed they havent had a new civil aircraft design since 1989.

True, But you cant expect them to pump out a new desigh every other year.
The more expensive things get the longer it takes to replace them. Liek cars are replace often because they dont cost that much (relative), and space vehicle (shuttles) we kept for along time because they cost a lot, and commercial jets are in the middle.

Originally posted by drfunk
screw america, screw boeing! I'm glad boeing's sat up and paying attention to the already successful A380.

Hmmmm surprising coming from the man who has a US made F-111 as his avatar. That being said, the A380 is hardly a "sucsess" as is the 7E7. Neither have launched, and neither have booked enough sales yet to even qualify. Im glad that the EU taxpayers are helping subsidise Airbus with loan quarantees (nice not having to pay back a loan untill you can turn out a profit) and outright subsadies.

US industry has to get off its keister and the US government needs to do the kicking.

US representitives go to WTO over Airbus (must be time for another slapping)


Hopefully, this will work to our benefit in the end.

Washington goes to the WTO that will, as usual, rule against the party with deeper pockets despite who was really in the wrong to begin with. Counting on this "slapping", the government gains the impetus it will need to start rewarding disgustingly large subsidies of its own to Boeing. With those extra billions of dollars to work with, Boeing could have the freedom to operate at a loss (selling aircraft for less than manufacturing cost) for a prolonged period of time so as to undercut Airbus's market share. With all of the benefits, pensions, early retirement and other stipulations demanded by a socialist economic system, I doubt Airbus could operate in the red for as long of a time as Boeing would be able to.

Undercutting the competition with obscene amounts of money is the key, thats how Walmart got so damn big.

[edit on 6-10-2004 by Crazyhorse]

Hmmmm surprising coming from the man who has a US made F-111 as his avatar

well actually General Dynamics created the f-111 not boeing.

DRfunk, if you make such comments again I will report you to the moderaters, do not make such comments on this board

whatever happened to that long held american tradition of freedom of speech? while the rest of the world embraces it you just seem to agree with your govt and must believe in taking it away from the people. I am entitled to say what i want without fear of persecution of others.
The US wants to go to the WTO over airbus because Boeing's having a cry. I say screw america and screw boeing.

Airbus rules,

drfunk

Well I do have a comment here..

Look Airbus was given a lot of breaks to get the EU on a competitive footing with the US aerospace industry (FACT)

Boeing was whining a few years back about the same stuff, and the US GOV turned a blind ear..... so Boeing fought back by getting the assurance that they would not be hammered for a monopoly when they bought McDonaldDouglas. The US gov said go for it..............

Now there are 2 major players, one get more subsidizing than the other...



Boeing has technology that would make AirBus look like a PiperCub. So be careful in your 'predictions'.

If the taxman lays off Boeing, and Boeing pulls off the gloves, Airbus is doomed.

So keep up the Subsidies, I dont give a hoot......

BUt in that statement, I would request that uncle sam let Boeing loose and get the regulation soff their back....

No need for the WTO after that.......



[edit on 6-10-2004 by edsinger]

drfunk
I am entitled to say what i want without fear of persecution of others.

Oh Yeah, tell ya what, Go to a Rap concert in Detroit wearing a white bed sheet and then take your pillow cover and make 2 eye holes in it, put it on and go to the concert with no fear. Or the next time you go to a airport start yelling I have a bomb, and when the cops point thier guns at you, we will see that attitude of yours change quick.

oh so i am a racist and a terrorist now just because i don't support boeing and their and the US govts double-standards?

thanks,
drfunk

[edit on 7-10-2004 by drfunk]