McCain National ID 'secretly' passed Senate on Friday

Originally posted by Seraphim_Serpente
Have you seen the New Fed Reserve 20, 50 & 100 Designs - Multi-Color & so on!!!

There is only so far that you can go with Chips & Encryption Techniques & Unique Identifying Numbers - They are already getting into Electronic Finger Print & Retinal Scanning!!!

It is the next level of Biometric Technology that really SCARES me however -Blood Samples. Talk about the ULTIMATE Unique Identifier -> Your DNA!!!

[edit on 6-10-2004 by Seraphim_Serpente]

My husband has the new technology on ID cards in the military base he cannot log into certain military sites without inserting his ID card in the computer that control what security level he has and what he is allowed to see.

Now the DNA I agree with you and that is my point all alone once the government gets you into their trap of national IDs in the name of security who is to say that the next thing will be DNA and microchips.

a lot of people are probably worried where this could go and what it is reminiscent of. This national ID card you might end up having to show at state borders and when you go on holidays in the continental US or even have you checked up at the supermarket. This is reminiscent of a communist/fascist state and that makes this scary.

IMO it is a basic right to be able to go anywhere in your country and at least have some right to privacy and not have the govt checking up on who you are all the time.

thanks,
drfunk

Originally posted by drfunk
a lot of people are probably worried where this could go and what it is reminiscent of. This national ID card you might end up having to show at state borders and when you go on holidays in the continental US or even have you checked up at the supermarket. This is reminiscent of a communist/fascist state and that makes this scary.

IMO it is a basic right to be able to go anywhere in your country and at least have some right to privacy and not have the govt checking up on who you are all the time.

thanks,
drfunk

Why would they want to see a NATIONAL id card at a state border. They would do that at the national border but not state. A state id card (drivers license) would be more appropriate in this situation, but it will not happen.

Originally posted by taibunsuu

Originally posted by Rain King

Explain to me how a national ID card is leading to any of this. What is everyone so scared of? It is for our protection, keeping people without IDs from entering the US.

Who protects you, the government, or yourself?

You tell me. Without laws, I guess you would have to protect YOURSELF from all the criminals and terrorists out there who want to harm you.

I've carefully considered this issue, and I offer the following:

It is an excellent trait, suspicion. It is how we, the American people, protect our freedom, from conspiring groups who want to take it away. If we don't guard our freedom, we don't deserve it.

However, that being said, I think that this particular issue is moot. It sounds like the next time you renew your license, you will be applying for this ID card simultaniously.

Save your steam for the REAL intrusions on our freedom.

This is whats is scary, because if you don't renew, you don't drive, so the government is one-up on you. I don't think this particular ID issue is worth discussion., because the real issue is the ease with which the government can impose its regulations on us. Therein lies the REAL threat to our freedom.

Originally posted by Rain King
It sounds like the next time you renew your license, you will be applying for this ID card simultaniously.

Save your steam for the REAL intrusions on our freedom.

This is whats is scary, because if you don't renew, you don't drive, so the government is one-up on you. I don't think this particular ID issue is worth discussion., because the real issue is the ease with which the government can impose its regulations on us. Therein lies the REAL threat to our freedom.

I'll tell you I'm fighting this teeth and nails, I am NOT getting a biometric de facto national ID, I don't really care if my "outdated" driver's license becomes expired, all I can say is they wanna take my any more of my rights they are getting a fight. I'm drawing the line right here.

As you just said Rain King, the regulations/rules of usage are the really bad thing, but you and I know that's the next step.You gotta fight it here or in your grave, there is no turning back after this measure is taken.

You know where my line in the sand is, and I'm working on a political cartoon about this, look for it in a day or two.

Please people, call your US House Representatives and tell them to reject H.R. 5150! They vote as early as tommorow!

I reread the text of the amendment and found something I missed...It's a rather long amendment. A biometric ID could be implemented in time of national need... basically whenever they want.

This is what the most honest politician inside the Beltway, Representative Ron Paul has to say on the issue (and he says it very well) and even predicted what happened:

Texas Straight Talk
Congress has embraced the 9/11 Commission report uncritically since its release in July. Now Congress is rushing to write each 9/11 Commission recommendation into law before the November election. In the same way Congress rushed to pass the PATRIOT Act after the September 11 attacks to be seen "doing something," it looks like Congress is about to make the same mistake again of rushing to pass liberty-destroying legislation without stopping to consider the consequences. Because it is so controversial, we may see legislation mandating a national identification card with biometric identifiers hidden in bills implementing 9/11 Commission recommendations. We have seen this technique used in the past on controversial measures.

A national identification card, in whatever form it may take, will allow the federal government to inappropriately monitor the movements and transactions of every American. History shows that governments inevitably use the power to monitor the actions of people in harmful ways. Claims that the government will protect the privacy of Americans when implementing a national identification card ring hollow. We would do well to remember what happened with the Social Security number. It was introduced with solemn restrictions on how it could be used, but it has become a de facto national identifier.

Those who are willing to allow the government to establish a Soviet-style internal passport system because they think it will make us safer are terribly mistaken. Subjecting every citizen to surveillance and "screening points" will actually make us less safe, not in the least because it will divert resources away from tracking and apprehending terrorists and deploy them against innocent Americans!

The federal government has no constitutional authority to require law-abiding Americans to present any form of identification before they engage in private transactions. Instead of forcing all Americans to prove to law enforcement that they are not terrorists, we should be focusing our resources on measures that really will make us safer. For starters, we should take a look at our dangerously porous and unguarded borders. We have seen already this summer how easy it is for individuals possibly seeking to do us harm to sneak across the border into our country. In July, Pakistani citizen Farida Goolam Mahomed Ahmed, who is on the federal watch list, reportedly crossed illegally into Texas from Mexico. She was later arrested when she tried to board a plane in New York, but she should have never been able to cross our border in the first place!

We must take effective measures to protect ourselves from a terrorist attack. That does not mean rushing to embrace legislation that in the long run will do little to stop terrorism, but will do a great deal to undermine the very way of life we should be protecting. Just as we must not allow terrorists to threaten our lives, we must not allow government to threaten our liberties. We should reject the notion of a national identification card.

An alarm bell should go off in your head when something that was utilized by Nazi Germany and Communist Russia could be implemented in the US.

I suggest we follow BeingWatchedByThem's advice and tell your Rep what you feel. You can get a hold of your Representative here: www.house.gov. Your Rep's phone number should be in the Blue Pages of your phone book.

Originally posted by Bangin
Well, we all heard Cheney say last night that the threat of a terrorist with a nuke in the middle of a U.S. city is very real.

Well the US did drop TWO on Japan maybe its time for the US to find out what its like to be nuked?!?!

Or is that unfair?

I was under the impression that all US citizens would carry one in the US. what point would they have if they were going over the border when they have a passport?

Originally posted by Rain King

Originally posted by taibunsuu

Originally posted by Rain King

(It is an excellent trait, suspicion. It is how we, the American people, protect our freedom, from conspiring groups who want to take it away. If we don't guard our freedom, we don't deserve it.)

What good is guarding a freedom that you nolonger have? I think that we all need to ask ourselves - I mean really think about what freedom is/means to us. One person's views may differ from another's.

(However, that being said, I think that this particular issue is moot. It sounds like the next time you renew your license, you will be applying for this ID card simultaniously.)

Moot to who? Obviously some people believe that their freedom may be taken away - you obviously don't feel that way; it comes down to individual conclusive meanings of freedom. This particular issue may be moot to you - your opinion, your choice.

(Save your steam for the REAL intrusions on our freedom.)

OKAY? I missed the steam portion of this post - All I see is genuine concern.

(This is whats is scary, because if you don't renew, you don't drive, so the government is one-up on you. I don't think this particular ID issue is worth discussion., because the real issue is the ease with which the government can impose its regulations on us. Therein lies the REAL threat to our freedom.)

Obviously, some people do think this topic is worth discussion; but I think that most will agree that the government imposing regulations on us, especially without our vote is a definate threat.

[edit on 7-10-2004 by Godsent]

Originally posted by PistolPete

I suggest we follow BeingWatchedByThem's advice and tell your Rep what you feel. You can get a hold of your Representative here: www.house.gov. Your Rep's phone number should be in the Blue Pages of your phone book.

Tell them you don't/do want any bill passed that includes a mandate on the state regarding their state ID's. The two bills, I believe, they are looking at are H.R. 10 and/or H.R. 5150.

Don't make a mockery of the 10th amendment any more.

Reorganize the federal committees [I don't care], if you want, just don't force the states to modify their ID's to "federal standards".

We must win this battle to take back the previous violation.

I posted this on another thread too......
I wonder how many Christians thought that a Drivers license was a "Mark" when they first came into being.......Also, with a National ID...aren't there a some good things about it? Or are most of those against it, against it because of the Christian bible? It would identify the dead when found, find lost and/or run-a-way children...to name a couple.

Edited to add that I don't like the sneaky way it was done though!

[edit on 10/7/2004 by LadyV]

Originally posted by BeingWatchedByThem
just don't force the states to modify their ID's to "federal standards".

What is the terror in having state's conform to a federal standard in order to give out licenses? In florida they let a woman take a photographic id with her entire face except her eyes covered. In california they require different 'points' to get a license than in NY. Heck in NY people are protesting against illegal and fraudulently obtained licesnses from being taken away.

Please explain what the problem is with having a federal standard for licenses is.

It totally violates the Constitution. More specifically the 10th Amendment.

Amendment X

The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the states, are reserved to the states respectively, or to the people.

No where in the Constitution does it give the federal government to create (basically) a national ID.

The driver's license portion of the amendment (which was passed)
S.AMDT.3807
Amends: S.2845

thomas.loc.gov...:FLD001:S60083

SEC. __07. DRIVER'S LICENSES AND PERSONAL IDENTIFICATION CARDS.

(a) DEFINITIONS.--In this section:

(1) DRIVER'S LICENSE.--The term `driver's license' means a motor vehicle operator's license as defined in section 30301(5) of title 49, United States Code.

(2) PERSONAL IDENTIFICATION CARD.--The term `personal identification card' means an identification document (as defined in section 1028(d)(3) of title 18, United States Code) issued by a State.

(b) STANDARDS FOR ACCEPTANCE BY FEDERAL AGENCIES.--

(1) IN GENERAL.--

(A) LIMITATION ON ACCEPTANCE.--No Federal agency may accept, for any official purpose, a driver's license or personal identification card newly issued by a State more than 2 years after the promulgation of the minimum standards under paragraph (2) unless the driver's license or personal identification card conforms to such minimum standards.

(B) DATE FOR CONFORMANCE.--The Secretary of Transportation, in consultation with the Secretary of Homeland Security, shall establish a date after which no driver's license or personal identification card shall be accepted by a Federal agency for any official purpose unless such driver's license or personal identification card conforms to the minimum standards established under paragraph (2). The date shall be as early as the Secretary determines it is practicable for the States to comply with such date with reasonable efforts.

(C) STATE CERTIFICATION.--

(i) IN GENERAL.--Each State shall certify to the Secretary of Transportation that the State is in compliance with the requirements of this section.

(ii) FREQUENCY.--Certifications under clause (i) shall be made at such intervals and in such a manner as the Secretary of Transportation, with the concurrence of the Secretary of Homeland Security, may prescribe by regulation.

(iii) AUDITS.--The Secretary of Transportation may conduct periodic audits of each State's compliance with the requirements of this section.

(2) MINIMUM STANDARDS.--Not later than 18 months after the date of enactment of this Act, the Secretary of Transportation, in consultation with the Secretary of Homeland Security, shall by regulation, establish minimum standards for driver's licenses or personal identification cards issued by a State for use by Federal agencies for identification purposes that shall include--

(A) standards for documentation required as proof of identity of an applicant for a driver's license or personal identification card;

(B) standards for the verifiability of documents used to obtain a driver's license or personal identification card;

(C) standards for the processing of applications for driver's licenses and personal identification cards to prevent fraud;

(D) security standards to ensure that driver's licenses and personal identification cards are--

(i) resistant to tampering, alteration, or counterfeiting; and

(ii) capable of accommodating and ensuring the security of a digital photograph or other unique identifier; and

(E) a requirement that a State confiscate a driver's license or personal identification card if any component or security feature of the license or identification card is compromised.

SEC. __03. LIMITATION ON AUTHORITY TO DELAY NOTICE OF SEARCH WARRANTS.

(a) IN GENERAL.--Section 3103a of title 18, United States Code, is amended--

(1) in subsection (b)--

(A) in paragraph (1), by striking ``may have an adverse result (as defined in section 2705)'' and inserting ``will--

``(A) endanger the life or physical safety of an individual;

``(B) result in flight from prosecution; or

``(C) result in the destruction of, or tampering with, the evidence sought under the warrant''; and

(B) in paragraph (3), by striking ``within a reasonable period'' and all that follows and inserting ``not later than 7 days after the execution of the warrant, which period may be extended by the court for an additional period of not more than 7 days each time the court finds reasonable cause to believe, pursuant to a request by the Attorney General, the Deputy Attorney General, or an Associate Attorney General, that notice of the execution of the warrant will--

``(A) endanger the life or physical safety of an individual;

``(B) result in flight from prosecution; or

``(C) result in the destruction of, or tampering with, the evidence sought under the warrant.''; and

(2) by adding at the end the following:

``(c) REPORTS.--

``(1) IN GENERAL.--Every 6 months, the Attorney General shall submit a report to Congress summarizing, with respect to warrants under subsection (b), the requests made by the Department of Justice for delays of notice and extensions of delays of notice during the previous 6-month period.

``(2) CONTENTS.--Each report submitted under paragraph (1) shall include, for the preceding 6-month period--

``(A) the number of requests for delays of notice with respect to warrants under subsection (b), categorized as granted, denied, or pending; and

``(B) for each request for delayed notice that was granted, the number of requests for extensions of the delay of notice, categorized as granted, denied, or pending.

``(3) PUBLIC AVAILABILITY.--The Attorney General shall make the report submitted under paragraph (1) available to the public.''.

(b) SUNSET PROVISION.--

(1) IN GENERAL.--Subsections (b) and (c) of section 3103a of title 18, United States Code, shall cease to have effect on December 31, 2005.

(2) EXCEPTION.--With respect to any particular foreign intelligence investigation that began before the date on which the provisions referred to in paragraph (1) cease to have effect, or with respect to any particular offense or potential offense that began or occurred before the date on which the provisions referred to in paragraph (1) cease to have effect, such provisions shall continue in effect.

SEC. __01. AMENDMENTS TO THE SOCIAL SECURITY ACT RELATING TO IDENTIFICATION OF INDIVIDUALS.

(a) ANTIFRAUD MEASURES FOR SOCIAL SECURITY CARDS.--Section 205(c)(2)(G) of the Social Security Act (42 U.S.C. 405(c)(2)(G)) is amended--

(1) by inserting ``(i)'' after ``(G)'';

(2) by striking ``banknote paper'' and inserting ``durable plastic or similar material''; and

(3) by adding at the end the following new clauses:

``(ii) Each Social security card issued under this subparagraph shall include an encrypted electronic identification strip which shall be unique to the individual to whom the card is issued and such biometric information as is determined by the Commissioner and the Secretary of Homeland Security to be necessary for identifying the person to whom to the card is issued. The Commissioner shall develop such electronic identification strip in consultation with the Secretary of Homeland Security, so as to enable employers to use such strip in accordance with section __03(b) of the National Intelligence Reform Act of 2004 to obtain access to the Employment Eligibility Database established by such Secretary pursuant to section __02 of such Act with respect to the individual to whom the card is issued.

``(iii) The Commissioner shall provide for the issuance (or reissuance) to each individual who--

``(I) has been assigned a Social Security account number under subparagraph (B),

``(II) has attained the minimum age applicable, in the jurisdiction in which such individual engages in employment, for legally engaging in such employment, and

``(III) files application for such card under this clause in such form and manner as shall be prescribed by the Commissioner,

a social security card which meets the preceding requirements of this subparagraph.

``(iv) The Commissioner shall maintain an ongoing effort to develop measures in relation to the social security card and the issuance thereof to preclude fraudulent use thereof.''.

(b) SHARING OF INFORMATION WITH THE SECRETARY OF HOMELAND SECURITY.--Section 205(c)(2) of such Act is amended by adding at the end the following new subparagraph:

``(I) Upon the issuance of a Social Security account number under subparagraph (B) to any individual or the issuance of a social security card under subparagraph (G) to any individual, the Commissioner of Social Security shall transmit to the Secretary of Homeland Security such information received by the Commissioner in the individual's application for such number or such card as such Secretary determines necessary and appropriate for administration of the National Intelligence Reform Act of 2004.''.

(c) PROGRAM TO ENSURE VERACITY OF APPLICATION INFORMATION.--The Commissioner of Social Security, in consultation with the Secretary of Homeland Security, shall develop a program to ensure the accuracy and veracity of the information and evidence supplied to the Commissioner under section 205(c)(2)(B)(ii) of the Social Security Act (42 U.S.C. 405(c)(2)(B)(ii)) in connection with an application for a social security number.

(d) EFFECTIVE DATES.--The amendment made by subsection (a) shall apply with respect to social security cards issued after 2 years after the date of the enactment of this Act. The amendment made by subsection (b) shall apply with respect to the issuance of Social Security account numbers and social security cards after 2 years after the date of the enactment of this Act.

wow! Thats insane!

One step closer to a police state.....

Originally posted by BeingWatchedByThem
No where in the Constitution does it give the federal government to create (basically) a national ID.

They are creating nationalized standards for the licenses given out by states, and they probably will set it up such that states that don't agree to it don't receive some part of some federal funds. Besides which, as I have already stated, I am opposed to a national id, but the hysterics surrounding it are unreasonable. Even -if- this id was incongruent with the 10th ammendment, so what? It'll be struck down by the SCOTUS anyway, and its hardly a denial of an essential liberty.

The driver's license portion of the amendment (which was passed)

The bill was not made law. The bill was ammended to include certain language. The senators who bothered to stay to vote on it voted for it.

No Federal agency may accept, for any official purpose, a driver's license or personal identification card newly issued by a State more than 2 years after the promulgation of the minimum standards under paragraph (2) unless the driver's license or personal identification card conforms to such minimum standards.

No part of the 10th states that federal agencies must accept for federal purposes state qualifications. This is saying c.f. what I said above. They aren' forcing the states to do anything involving their own processes. But if they want ot participate in some of the benefits of federal programs (whatever it is that they are using their ids for) then they are saying they have to meet the feds own standards. Why shouldn't they have to meet the feds standards? Section C is merely stating what those standards are.

What do you find so unreasonable about sec 3?

Why do you have a problem with Social Security cards having the same magnetic stripe that a credit card, or some state licenses, or, hell, even the member cards at a casino has? This is the 21st century, and people are still walking around with licenses that only have as much info as can be printed on a little peice of paper? Why not have cards that can contain potentially important information? Should'nt the problem be with the type of infomation used?

drfunk
This national ID card you might end up having to show at state borders and when you go on holidays in the continental US

Why? State Ids could just as easily be misused. Besides, I think that there are already laws in place that prevent passports and border checks between states.

pistolpete
An alarm bell should go off in your head when something that was utilized by Nazi Germany and Communist Russia could be implemented in the US.

Your license already has biometric information. It has sex, height, eye color, and a representation of your face on it.

Are people really this terrififed that their license might have say, a copy of their fingerprint on it? Or that it might have their fingerprint information stored in such a way that a cop can swipe the card in a reader and compare finger prints on the spot?

Again, I don;t think that a national id is a good idea anyway, and I don't think that this ammemdment to a bill which has -not- been voted on yet is a particularly good idea either. BUt its not because its a conspiracy too, too, to do what exactly? "track your every move"? This -won't- allow them to track any moves, except when they stop you and request your id which they can do now anyway. All this ammendment to this bill is doing is making more certain that the person with the card is the person the card claims them to be. I think its uncessesary, since the 9-11 hijackers had valid and legal ids anyway! But thats a different issue.

Originally posted by mrmulder


Because I have already have an ID card. My drivers license. That makes a national ID useless in my opinion. Besides, it's not what this country was founded on.

[edit on 6-10-2004 by mrmulder]

[edit on 6-10-2004 by mrmulder]

So youre telling me a cop from Ohio should know what a drivers license looks like from Vermont?...We have 50 different drivers licenses...How in the hell is a clerk checking your ID in Nevada going to know if your Montana ID is legit?...Aint nothing wrong with a National ID...as long as it contains the same basic info as your license...and not much more...

reply to post by mrmulder


You think you can use your drivers license... Fact is if you don't accept the card you won't be able to keep your job, buy, sell or trade with anyone... They will introduce it to you as a must have yet something you should have with a bunch of false benefits... most will accept this and once the cards become a hastle, you know people losing them and such, they'll introduce the "new" method which will be chips... As soon as the national id card is official I'm taking off for the woods... If you accept the card you have accepted the mark of the beast, whether you want to admit it or not...