Does god have a goal?

reply to post by JesuitGarlic


It's not the 3rd Advent, it will be the second Advent. The rapture Christ doesnt return to Earth, the millennium, or "Day of the Lord" as the OT prophets put it Christ returns to Earth to reign. Fulfilling the prophets and Gabriel's prophecy. Do you remember what Daniel said about the great stone that would smash the image of man? Do you think God will just forget about all that?? Do you remember what Christ said when His disciples asked Him if He was going to take the kigdom at that time? Think... it was either basically "Lol, no guys that's not a literal kingdom"... or "Not yet, it's up to the Father, it's not for you to know His timing."

reply to post by DakotaCensus

Ok, I can kind of see this as a goal. We are given free will but have the opportunity to see and choose god's path. Is that a 'correct' way of putting it?

It is acceptable but were is also more to it. Without being tested by Satan on this Earth we would not have the chance to develop an improved character. The trials are necessary part of our experience and the knowledge we gain from them.

This one I don't understand. Why is it necessary to demonstrate to the angels who remained loyal that it was the right decision to do so?

It was to do with the clever insinuations Lucifer made against the character of God, stoking disharmony amongst the rest of the angels and then voicing the concerns of the other angels against God that the disharmony was coming from them and not him. He made it appear he was impartial or uncommitted initially in the whole affair when he was the one bringing all the animosity. Even during the rebellion proper lots of the loyal angels could not see the true spirit that was leading Lucifer and what the result would be of someone saying that their rules and laws are better than God's Divine Law.

All this is fully explained in the book, Patriarchs and Prophets and in particular chapter 1 Why was sin permitted? I would recommend reading the first 4 chapters of that book to get a proper grounding in the topic and basically the purpose of our whole existence....obviously very important information.

I will be very interested to hear your comments on this after you have read at least that first chapter. I will be happy to help you with any other questions you might have

reply to post by NOTurTypical

The rapture Christ doesnt return to Earth, the millennium, or "Day of the Lord" as the OT prophets put it Christ returns to Earth to reign

1 Thessalonians 4:16-17

For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

You're in opposition with the Bible I am afraid.

What do we learn from this verse? In Jesus' second coming (your rapture event), Jesus actually does come and never touches the ground as we are called up to 'meet the Lord in the air'.

The spirit of prophecy does not currently reside within you brother.

reply to post by JesuitGarlic


You highlighted what I said. He returns to the air, not Earth, as in dirt, terra firma... at His 2nd coming His feet touch the Mt. of Olives and it splits into two. You just underlined exactly what I said, He returns only to the air to gather His bride. At the rapture He comes FOR His bride, at His 2nd advent He comes WITH His bride. At the rapture only His own will see Him, at the second advent EVERY eye shall see Him.



Now you appoint yourself as my judge?? Haha, be my guest. You were not the one who called me to prophet, there was no deacon board vote, you aren't the one who will remove me from service either, sorry to burst your bubble. Besides that, what does tye Bible say is the "spirit of prophecy"? (your words, you chose them)

Originally posted by NOTurTypical
reply to post by JesuitGarlic

 

The millinium is the re-establishment of the Davidic throne. Duh, Christ is the only person who can do that considering the blood curse on the natural seed of David. (Johiachim) As soon as Christ sits on the mercy seat in Jerusalem the Davidic throne will be established. And right now the Lord is seated on His Father's throne, not David's!!! Lol

Gabriel didnt lie to Mary, her Son will sit upon and rule from David's throne. What do you think you pray for when you pray "Thy kingdom COME..."?

You fail to recognize Zechariah 14:10-12

All the land shall be turned into a plain from Geba to Rimmon south of Jerusalem: and she shall be lifted up, and inhabited in her place, from Benjamin's gate to the place of the first gate, and the corner gate, and from the tower of Hananel to the king's winepresses.

And men shall dwell in it, and there shall be no longer utter destruction; but Jerusalem shall be safely inhabited.

And this shall be the plague with which the LORD will strike all the people that have fought against Jerusalem; Their flesh shall rot away while they stand upon their feet, and their eyes shall rot away in their sockets, and their tongue shall rot away in their mouths.

And the context of this passage

'and the LORD my God shall come, and all the saints with him.'

(Zechariah 14:5)

What event is these passages referencing. The event is the 3rd advent when the holy city called the new Jerusalem descends upon the earth (Revelation 21:2). The plain around the correct site is completely flatten (Zec. 14:10). Zec. 14:12 is describing the event where Judgement is administered upon the wicked and they are erased from existence for good. He also find out about events on that day relating to the battle of Gog and Magog here is Zec.14:13-15. We also learn in verses 16 and 17 how we all come and worship the King, ala sitting on the throne of David in Jerusalem.

I suggest you cross references the whole of Zec. 14 with Revelation chapter 20 and 21 in particular.

Revelation 20:11

And I saw a great white throne, and Him that sat on it...

There is your Mary promise fulfilled, Him on the throne in the Holy City descending upon the earth called the new Jerusalem, they city that will come to rest where the old (present) Jerusalem resides.

Originally posted by NOTurTypical
reply to post by JesuitGarlic

 

You highlighted what I said. He returns to the air, not Earth, as in dirt, terra firma... at His 2nd coming His feet touch the Mt. of Olives and it splits into two. You just underlined exactly what I said, He returns only to the air to gather His bride. At the rapture He comes FOR His bride, at His 2nd advent He comes WITH His bride. At the rapture only His own will see Him, at the second advent EVERY eye shall see Him.

Now you appoint yourself as my judge?? Haha, be my guest. You were not the one who called me to prophet, there was no deacon board vote, you aren't the one who will remove me from service either, sorry to burst your bubble. Besides that, what does tye Bible say is the "spirit of prophecy"? (your words, you chose them)

edit on 17-6-2012 by NOTurTypical because: (no reason given)

Alrighty, if you want to be technical about it.....when He comes in the 'rapture' (as you call it) he comes inside the Earth's atmosphere (it is the second coming as talked about). You said Earth with a capital 'E' signifying the planet Earth not the ground/dirt version of 'earth'. Oopps. The planet Earth encompasses the atmosphere so when He enters Earth's atmosphere then He has come to Earth the second time.

You are also incorrect that nobody else will see him during the 'rapture' (second coming) other than his bride Revelation 19:19 says otherwise.

And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army.

You are not batting too highly on this one friend ...

The testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy. If you are giving false understanding of prophecy that leads to confusion then you are giving false testimony to Jesus.

You give testimony that Jesus is God, that he is outside of time and knows the end from the beginning, showing that he can be trusted when you give accurate prophecy concerning Him. When you merely talk about Jesus that doesn't mean you are a prophet, that is a different spiritual gift.

Your the one who nominated yourself as having the gift of prophecy. This means you receive revelations (visions or dreams) from God to have correct understanding about future events. It is clear you do not have correct understanding about future events so you have neither received revelations from God or have the self described gift of prophecy. If you say you have this gift then it is very dangerous because people will assume whatever comes out of your mouth is gospel truth.

You are incorrect about the purpose of the Tribulation, you are incorrect about what Jerusalem and Israel are in Revelation, you are incorrect about who will see Him during the rapture. This means you do not have the gift of prophecy because you speak at odds with the Bible.

The literal Israel (or the Jewish people altogether) will have their chance to be reconciled again if they remain true to God's Divine Law during the tribulation. If they keep the Divine Law as we are all meant to as they teach now then they will not receive the Beast's mark as they are mutually exclusive.

reply to post by JesuitGarlic


All the more reason the Talmud should be destroyed. Daniel all but tells them flat out that Yeshua is the Messiah, and they'd rather trust that then the books of the prophets.

Originally posted by KenArten
reply to post by DakotaCensus

 

Simple
I have offered no answer to this as the original question in this thread is posed on the assumptions that does god exists, did create the Universe, and has a continuing role in this creation (because he anticipates some result).

To debate the qualities, nature and even personification of the presumed god is outside the exploration proposed and is really another extensive thread of its own and I will happily answer it in such an exploration. To include it here, removes some of the scope of the question posed and within these constraints, any answer I can give you to your question would be incomplete.

Fair enough, point taken.

Originally posted by KenArten
reply to post by DakotaCensus

 

However, if someone says that creation is a learning exercise for god, that could be a relevant goal, but obviously implies that god still has some learning to do. I do not see this as any threat to god's perfection. Maybe wisdom cannot be absolute but wisdom that always moves ahead of ignorance will always be perfect.

Interesting. Is this a departure from the idea of an all-knowing god?

Originally posted by KenArten
reply to post by DakotaCensus

 

I like your nature of probing - constructive and good for the debate. Thank you

Appreciate the thoughtful replies.

reply to post by JesuitGarlic


You realize many great scholars and teachers disagree with the Catholic/Augustinian amillinnialist stance correct? You speak as if that's the settle-all-that's-the-way-it-is everyone else is going to Hell camp. Let me ask you if we all see clearly or through a glass partially, let me as you if we prophesy in full or if we prophesy in part. You just judged me earlier and you are nowhere in my chain of spiritual authority. NOWHERE...Earlier you mentioned I clearly did not have the "spirit of prophecy", when it's not a spirit, it' a GIFT and CALLING. (Ephesians 4) Im encouraged you changed your tone and realized the testimony of Jesus Christ is the spirit of prophecy, good 180 bro. And if I wanted to self-appoint myself anything at all it would be gift of teacher or evangelist. Prophet is the LEAST desired calling because beveryone rejects what you say and in OT times everyone wanted us dead or in prison. I ran from the call for SIX years because irl I am shy and hate speaking in front of people. You want a rhema word from God? You demanded one in the other thread about prophecy. When I went to the Lord about a word for that thread and the end-times He literally said:

"I've already given them my Word for the end, tell them to read Psalms 46."

No joke, there is your word. Now quit crying, worrying, and JUDGING and trust in the Lord. Someone with the gift and calling of prophet doesn't sit around having dreams and visions all day. With the indwelling of the Spirit it's quite a bit different than an OT prophet. We are given the gifts of words of wisdom, words of knowledge, teaching the Word, and discernmemt of spirits. That's it, sorry it's not flashy enough for you. But like I said, God didn't ask your vote when He called me, I don't think he cares that you vote me fired. Sorry about that.

Originally posted by lonewolf19792000
reply to post by JesuitGarlic

 

All the more reason the Talmud should be destroyed. Daniel all but tells them flat out that Yeshua is the Messiah, and they'd rather trust that then the books of the prophets.

Dude, Gabriel told them the EXACT day the Moshiach would ride into town and they jacked that up.

reply to post by NOTurTypical


I don't know why who've decided to label me Catholic/Augustinian amillinnialist (I guess for the same reasons you try to label me a hater of Jews). I don't use these terms, I teach what the bible teaches. It is probably a bad idea to label me as agreeing with any kind of teaching coming from the Catholic church for starters. I looked up your 'amillinnialist' term on wiki and the best term to 'label' me is 'Post-Tribulation Premillennialist'

I encourage you to follow what is plainly written in the Bible through understanding proper chronologies by cross-referencing the appropriate texts. (It is also quite likely I don't believe in your version of hell either if it is of the unbiblical but common persuasion of 'eternal torment' or 'burning forever' variety, the consequences last forever not the punishment)

I already knew the answers to the questions I gave you as a test to see if you had the 'gift' of prophecy, it would not be a proper test if I didn't already know what the correct answer was. Your Psalms 46 passage was nice to read though.

I am not accustom to hearing incorrect understandings of various theology and I can be pretty blunt in responses because of this and will try to improve my tone. I would appreciate not being labeled a hater of Jews or sympathetic to Catholic teaching!

reply to post by JesuitGarlic

You are also incorrect that nobody else will see him during the 'rapture' (second coming) other than his bride

did i miss something ? what bride ?

Originally posted by icepack
reply to post by JesuitGarlic

 

You are also incorrect that nobody else will see him during the 'rapture' (second coming) other than his bride

did i miss something ? what bride ?

, You don't know?

reply to post by lonewolf19792000

i think it is something about power. jesus is absolute ruler like a alpha, the believers and followers are beta.

I think what your asking is....... after everything is all finished, armagedon, judgement and all, everyone judged, and Heaven settles down to business as usual for the rest of eternity...... cruise mode, what then for all of eternity?

I really wish that religious or non-religious OP’s would state the god or gods that they wishing to discuss; there are thousands you know….. don’t let us guess.

Any-way, back to your question: I hear that most ‘gods’ need a lot of money….. so their goal is to be financially secure!

Unless you’re talking about a god that does not need funding…. then the goal is to control, intimidate, spread fear, crush free thinking & limit the advancement of humankind.

Mickierocksman

reply to post by DakotaCensus

Interesting. Is this a departure from the idea of an all-knowing god?

Again "a departure" assumes that the concept of "an all-knowing god" is the accepted view for everyone. I am not sure that this is so as there are alternative views. But one may also test the term "all-knowing" as it seems to presume that there is no new knowledge evolving.

Could it not be possible that even "an all-knowing god" who knows all there is to be know at one stage, can do/create/evolve something that raises questions that he then needs to find answers for? For example, if god knew exactly what man would do and how each and every individual would react in this aspect of creation, we return to the question of the thread - Why did he do it? Unless he wanted to see how it would turn out (for whatever reason).

Originally posted by Plotus
I think what your asking is....... after everything is all finished, armagedon, judgement and all, everyone judged, and Heaven settles down to business as usual for the rest of eternity...... cruise mode, what then for all of eternity?

edit on 18-6-2012 by Plotus because: (no reason given)

That's intriguing. I'll admit I hadn't thought of it that way.

A goal implies an end point - and then what?

No goal means god's role is solely one of stewardship, and then perhaps no interest in the results of our actions.

Originally posted by Mickierocksman
I really wish that religious or non-religious OP’s would state the god or gods that they wishing to discuss; there are thousands you know….. don’t let us guess.

Why does it need to be specified? The question can apply equally to whatever god or gods a person believes in.

Originally posted by KenArten
reply to post by DakotaCensus

 

Again "a departure" assumes that the concept of "an all-knowing god" is the accepted view for everyone. I am not sure that this is so as there are alternative views. But one may also test the term "all-knowing" as it seems to presume that there is no new knowledge evolving.

Could it not be possible that even "an all-knowing god" who knows all there is to be know at one stage, can do/create/evolve something that raises questions that he then needs to find answers for? For example, if god knew exactly what man would do and how each and every individual would react in this aspect of creation, we return to the question of the thread - Why did he do it? Unless he wanted to see how it would turn out (for whatever reason).

edit on 18-6-2012 by KenArten because: (no reason given)

I accept your point that the idea of an all-knowing god is not universal, but would put forward that it is certainly a common belief, amongst those that believe.

This seems to hearken back to the old question of whether god could create a stone so heavy that even god could not lift it, and the paradox that entails if one is not willing to accept limits on gods abilities.

Your example, I believe, describes an appealing god who is as much a seeker of wisdom as a lord of humankind, but your example would also introduce a limitation on what god is capable of doing or knowing. Without full predictive powers, then the ability for god to make a mistake is introduced. One could argue that god does not directly intervene after setting up the initial conditions for our existence that then play out according to what we observe as natural laws, but the question of whether god is able to make mistakes is a separate one from whether mistakes are actually made.

This touches upon my motivation for this post. I live in Indonesia, which is a very religious country. I regularly interact with Muslims, Christians, and to a lesser extent Hindu and Buddhists. The most common opinion I encounter is that god is omnipotent, all knowing, etc, but the question of whether god has a goal seems to quickly lead to questions of whether or not there are god has limitations of some kind.

That in essence is what I am hoping to explore here, taking from the opinions and thoughts of believers and non-believes alike.