The Most Scandalous Thinkable: A Defense of France

the way i see it is that the European nations are essentially more "mature" than the US. After centuries of conflict, they are now working together in peace. I believe the values taught in European schools to children are better than those in the US. I also believe European govts take better care of their populace than the US does.

I think the US will progress to Europe's level of thinking one day, but for now it still is an imperialist child, essentially where many European nations were a century ago and what took millions of lives around the world to change for the better. I hope it doesn't cost so many lives for america to grow up.

thanks,
drfunk



thanks,
drfunk

Originally posted by FlyersFan

If the author of this thread loves France, I'm happy for him.
But I feel He's too young to understand what he's giving up
here in America.

[edit on 10/4/2004 by FlyersFan]

Hi FlyersFan,

I'm open to the idea that you might understand something I don't. But I'm not losing my citizenship or anything; my wife and I will both get double citizenship status, providing we live in each location a couple of years.

What is this that my youth prevents me from understanding? How am I giving up anything at all?

It is easy to see that as soon as americans get out of their wonderful country a little, they realize how they are being brainwashed by their governement most of the time... It is easier to analyze certain things when you are outside of it. And most of americans outside the US realize that Bush is as dangerous as Hitler was in the 30-40s...

I don't like what "France" (the nation/government) is doing in regards to Iraq and Saddam. But I'm not boycotting anyone. When the war first started there were some French restaurants being boycotted. I thought this was absurd because most employed and were run by Americans. So Americans put other Americans' livelihoods at stake to boycott "France". I think people boycott France because it's easy. If we really wanted to take a plug out of somebody's hide, we'd boycott Saudi Arabia, even though they're "friends".

Enjoy France. Visit there, live there, whatever. But you might put in a good word for your American brothers and sisters while you're getting tanked on the grape. Sometimes the diplomatic endeavors need to start at lower levels in the private sector.

Originally posted by PeaceBeWithYou

Originally posted by FlyersFan

If the author of this thread loves France, I'm happy for him.
But I feel He's too young to understand what he's giving up
here in America.

[edit on 10/4/2004 by FlyersFan]

Hi FlyersFan,

I'm open to the idea that you might understand something I don't. But I'm not losing my citizenship or anything; my wife and I will both get double citizenship status, providing we live in each location a couple of years.

What is this that my youth prevents me from understanding? How am I giving up anything at all?

Okay. I misread. I thought you were giving up being an American citizen.
For a person to give up their citizenship .... that's BIG. If you had been
giving it up, I'm sure you would have regreted it when you got older.

PeaceBeWithYou,

Welcome to the board! And thank you for showing that people and governments can be dissociated when you consider another nation. I may not like what the American government is doing, but I have no quarrel with Americans as individuals or as a nation.

As for Jacques Chirac... a few years ago he came to Canada for the Francophonie Summit, went to New Brunswick, met with Acadians who were really happy to have a French President visit him... and the French journalists said "Well, you can keep him if you like!"

As for Thomas Crowne... calling someone who has just started posting and has not attacked anyone personally an "arrogant traitor" is intimidation in my view. What better way, as a moderator, to send the message to said poster that his views are not welcome at ATS?

I personally think that the behaviour exhibited lately by TC is not one a Super Moderator should exhibit. Also insinuating that the influx of muslims into France over the past decade is slowly turning the country into a terrorist haven is something i would expect from a fascist. Slowly turning the country from the inside like a parasite slowly taking over the host, its ridiculous!

These people have come to France for a chance at a better life away from the dictators and criminals in the Middle East. We are one world, one people, not a bunch of different species which some people would like to believe. Christians, Jews and muslims we all pray to the same god, lets not generalise of a race because of the 'evil' minorities in each group (christian fundamentalists, jews who are in power in media/govt affecting other nations foreign policies to further the illegitimate state of Israel and the islamic fundamentalists and terrorists)

thanks,
drfunk

[edit on 4-10-2004 by drfunk]

Maybe the Moderators and Super Moderators could have 2 identities, one as a Moderator/Super Moderator and another as a member, so they can post their views without looking like those views are the official ATS views.

French Freemason, Pierre Charles L'Enfante

Poor poor freemasons...divided they fall.

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Happy Frederic-Auguste Bartholdi Day

French Freemasons and her mirror image stands on an island in the River Seine in Paris These statues of liberty are representations of Queen Semiramis and Isis et al, with the rays of the Sun around her head. The ancients symbolised the Sun in this way. And they are not holding the torch of liberty, but the torch of the illuminated ones, The Statue of Liberty is a Brotherhood symbol which says: We control this country and we are telling you so, but you are too stupid to see it!

Edit: Fixed image link

[edit on 4-10-2004 by ZeddicusZulZorander]

I was also in the same category as the original poster.

I was stationed in Germany in 1989-1992.
I married a German National, came back to the US for school, and moved back to Germany. We lived in Pirmasens(a border city with France, on the S.W. side of Germany). I was to the point where I had an unrestricted work permit, and permanent Visa to live there. Now, many people right across the border are ethnically German. The Alsace has been fought over for centuries. But what I found was that, even though I was American, living in Germany, and spending weekends in France, The French people are splendid. Never had any problems with them. When I am in a foreign country, I try to speak their language, and follow their customs (when in Rome.....). The French are extremely proud, just as we Americans are. But we seem to mistake pride for arrogance. Maybe that is how they see us. I used to argue politics on end with the Germans, and what I learned is: they have their ideas and beliefs, I have mine. They have a culture(like the French) that is 1000's of years old. Who am I to tell them what's what?

BTW, I am in preparations for moving back to Germany with my Wife and children. I find the quality of life better there. Some may call me a traitor, but what do they know? When I was living there, some showed animosity towards me for being American( mainly because of the soldiers attitudes there). But most were friendly. Even my wife gets some flak every now and then here in Chicago for being German. Asking her if Germany has refrigerators and air conditioning. She would get extremely miffed! She would blurt out: " Almost everything you Americans have were invented by the Germans. Modern Medicine, Aviation, Rocketry, the Space Program. All were developed by Germans.'

Originally posted by PeaceBeWithYou

As Coronamoz pointed out, a tiny twenty percent of the US population was sufficient to place Bush in office.

Ok...once again...where is this figure coming from? how many people in total voted in 2000? from that amount how many people voted for Bush?

The voting age population in the US is 205,815,000, out of those 105,405,100 voted. Is it Bush' fault that almost half of the voting population of the US did not vote? what are the reasons for these people not to vote? have you even tried to find out? Do these numbers concur with data from previous presidential elections?

You can find the above numbers at.
www.fec.gov...

Originally posted by ArMaP
Being an European, I can say that I am not jealous of anything that the US has.

I am not jealous of the high crime rate, I am not jealous of the pollution, I am not jealous of spending lots of money in arms, etc.

High crime rate....what does France do with repeated offenders?....including assasins...it was in the news some months back and I posted the infromation, as it came from France...

Pollution...yeah the French government prefer to pollute other countries and make them radioctive...who cares right? who made it possible for France to be a nuclear power? i think Chirac made a statement anwsering this question...and how many countries hate France for what they did testing their nuclear weapons...in other areas that affected other countries....

Spending money in arms...humm....try to compare the size of France and what position it has in world powers, of course not to mention what countries surround France that also spend funds in the military and which helps in lowering the funds the French government has to allocate for military spending...

Originally posted by nathraq
I was also in the same category as the original poster.

I was stationed in Germany in 1989-1992.
I married a German National, came back to the US for school, and moved back to Germany. We lived in Pirmasens(a border city with France, on the S.W. side of Germany). I was to the point where I had an unrestricted work permit, and permanent Visa to live there. Now, many people right across the border are ethnically German. The Alsace has been fought over for centuries. But what I found was that, even though I was American, living in Germany, and spending weekends in France, The French people are splendid. Never had any problems with them. When I am in a foreign country, I try to speak their language, and follow their customs (when in Rome.....). The French are extremely proud, just as we Americans are. But we seem to mistake pride for arrogance. Maybe that is how they see us. I used to argue politics on end with the Germans, and what I learned is: they have their ideas and beliefs, I have mine. They have a culture(like the French) that is 1000's of years old. Who am I to tell them what's what?

BTW, I am in preparations for moving back to Germany with my Wife and children. I find the quality of life better there. Some may call me a traitor, but what do they know? When I was living there, some showed animosity towards me for being American( mainly because of the soldiers attitudes there). But most were friendly. Even my wife gets some flak every now and then here in Chicago for being German. Asking her if Germany has refrigerators and air conditioning. She would get extremely miffed! She would blurt out: " Almost everything you Americans have were invented by the Germans. Modern Medicine, Aviation, Rocketry, the Space Program. All were developed by Germans.'

I am Belgian, living in Eastern Germany. Moved here because my girlfriend is from here.

I�ve been to France many times and have nothing bad to say about them either. Of course they are proud of their Country and their achievements. Of their culture and "joie de vie" (joy of life) ,
but then I do think everyone is somehow proud about his/her Country or roots.

If you find life better there that has IMO nothing to do with being a traitor or not. It has to do with personal values I think. Everyone has different standards and opinions and values. If you don�t find what you think you need in your place of birth, then you should look for the place where you find it. As you said, the French are very proud of their Country, sometimes on the border of being arrogant. But as in all the different nationalities you have good and bad guys. Generalising French people is as wrong as is generalising Americans for actions of some. Or to give an example that is closer to me: Not all Belgians are Pedophiles (probably spelled wrong :/ ) because we have Dutroux.

From other nationalities and cultures you can learn I think.


PS. I don�t exactly know why the quality of life is better for you in Germany. But it is a fact that it has been good , to good even, which is why the Governement is doing a huge social reformation called Herz IV. For some, situations will drastically change into a bad way. Shame it is that IMO the new social system will hurt even more the poor part of Germany, namely Eastern Germany. But that is another discussion

Spending money in arms...humm....try to compare the size of France and what position it has in world powers, of course not to mention what countries surround France that also spend funds in the military and which helps in lowering the funds the French government has to allocate for military spending...

Well my country, Belgium is a neighbour, but I doubt our little spending in the Army (if you can even call it like that) will help France lowering their funds

Originally posted by Muaddib

Originally posted by ArMaP
Being an European, I can say that I am not jealous of anything that the US has.

I am not jealous of the high crime rate, I am not jealous of the pollution, I am not jealous of spending lots of money in arms, etc.

High crime rate....what does France do with repeated offenders?....including assasins...it was in the news some months back and I posted the infromation, as it came from France...

Pollution...yeah the French government prefer to pollute other countries and make them radioctive...who cares right? who made it possible for France to be a nuclear power? i think Chirac made a statement anwsering this question...and how many countries hate France for what they did testing their nuclear weapons...in other areas that affected other countries....

Spending money in arms...humm....try to compare the size of France and what position it has in world powers, of course not to mention what countries surround France that also spend funds in the military and which helps in lowering the funds the French government has to allocate for military spending...

As you can see, I made that post as an European, not a French, wich I am not, and it was in response to a post from FlyersFan, who said that Europeans where jealous of the United States.

I do not know what France does to repeated offenders, I did not saw that.

I think that was Marie Curie that made it possible for France and all the other countries to be nuclear powers.

As my post was a response to other post, I do not think correct to answer to your remarks, because it looks like you were not aware of the fact that I was not talking about France.

One thing that I think most Americans forget about is how our country wouldn't be here without the aid of France's military might during the Revolutionary War. I think it's pretty ignorant of Americans to show such blatant disrespect to a country that helped America get it's independence from Britain.

These boards show the triumph of ignorance and hatred. Instead of marching forward, we are quickly backpedalling to primitive status.

The only solution is for an alien civilisation to approach us. It is only then that we, Earth habitants, unite and love each other.

Originally posted by ArMaP
I think that was Marie Curie that made it possible for France and all the other countries to be nuclear powers.

Humm, I wonder what the title of this thread is?....never mind...

Now, the French should be thanking French Polynesia and other islands and countries in the pacific for their nuclear capabilities.....not to say that the nuclear fallout problems these people are still having.

I will not judge the people of France based on the decisions of their leaders. Going to France many times over my life I have experienced different treatments from people within the same areas. I think it is hard to judge a people as a whole because of a few attitudes and because of the political leaders decisions. Now I do not find it wrong to boycott products against certain country based companies to apply pressure to those goverments.

Originally posted by mwm1331
Absolutly cargo both the right and left needlessly dengrate each other with the worst insults they can think of. The only difference is what each side believes is an insult. To the right, being a traitor is the worst insult we can think of, to the left being a patriot is the worst insult they can think of.

I'm afraid the bolded part is nonsense.
I have never met, or read any person considered to the 'left' who would be insulted if labeled a patriot. Most of them do have a different understanding of patriotism than conservatives do, however, since it is their very patriotism that pushes them to be vocally critical about this BS invasion of a non-threatening, crippled Middle Eastern nation.

U.