The Most Scandalous Thinkable: A Defense of France

Alright everyone. I've been lurking on this board for a few weeks now, and all this talk of France today has finally got me registered.

So, why did all this good ol'American France-hatin' talk get THIS American to finally register? And Who is he to speak in defense of France?

First, I live in Paris, and will be French myself in a short period of time. I fell in love with a girl that (god forbid) was born in France. Also, it turns out that when you're 21 years old and your parents happen to have that strong sense of "independance" (a concept valorized in the US because of politics among the richest white men circa 1770's) conceptualized on the financial plane, moving to France and enrolling in schools is about the best quality education you can get for your buck (My tuition is about 500 US dollars per year including free health care and a Harvard PhD research director).

The factor motivating me to register was the quantity of hatred displayed on this board toward the people I live among and the lack of anyone speaking reasonably about it.

Anyone so motivated as to hate a nation of millions of human beings over POLITICS is operating in the same moral universe as the jihadist. French haters should drop a peek at the last regional elections to see what the French people think of him. If you missed it, it was a record breaking victory for the Socialists.

Unfortunately for the French President, Chirac is not from this party. His party, the UMP, is centrist and will probably be revived by Nicolas Sarkozy for the next elections. Sarkozy moving to the left and is apparently too charming for the French to resist.

So, now you know how the French PEOPLE stand in relation to these figure heads, why would you bash them to bash Chirac? We all hate that guy!

The French people are largely giving the American PEOPLE the benefit of the doubt on Iraq for the same reason. They figure the Americans probably all feel the same way about Bush they feel about Chirac. I only hope we Americans don't re-elect that warmonger; from an international perspective, this time it would on purpose.

Someone in another thread said "I bet you like French wine, too!" As I was literally finishing a glass while reading the thread, I thought I would comment here too. I do like French wine. So what? Its wine, and its good. If you prefer what they grow in California, more power to you. Why is this even a criticism?

And finally in hopes of cluing-in even one Anti-French American, Freedom Fries were the most foolish idea ever and didn't hurt the feelings of even one Frenchman. Fries were invented in Belgium, and everyone in Europe seems well aware of this fact.

Unfortunately, this team-spirit French hating has created concrete problems. It seems that French people (and only the French out of all of Europe) have to pay a new 200+ dollar visa just to visit the states. As a result, the French-haters effort kept this good ol'Mississippi boy from being able to introduce his fiance to his aging grandmother before our marriage.

I hope not to offend anyone with what I am saying here and that this yields an opening of perception consistant with the motto "Deny Ignorance." I submit an axiom: "Deny Hatred."




[edit on 3-10-2004 by PeaceBeWithYou]

Originally posted by PeaceBeWithYou
Anyone so motivated as to hate a nation of millions of human beings over POLITICS should drop a peek at the last regional elections to see what the French people think of him. If you missed it, it was a record breaking victory for the Socialists

lol, tell that to the jihadists in regards to America

Nice post, Peace. I share your sentiments- a lot of Americans look down on Canadians for no real reason. Welcome to the board- this is a great first post.

DE

PBWY, welcome to the board, and good riddance to you, physically speaking. I hope you enjoy France and stay there a long time. Sounds like you'll fit in nicely with them.

As you are only 21 years old and pretty much believe that cognizance began with your existence, I'll be loving and gentle with you rather than rough and curt.

The hatred has been around for a long time, but it has flowed from the side of the pond you are now on, not over here. We are just a bit slow in catching on to the Nationality hating thing, but we can learn, and we learned from your new-found friends.

Sounds to me that you didn't catch a lot of American history when you graced this country with your intellectual presence. Had you paid attention, you'd have noticed that it was, in fact, those who who had the most to loose, and most in fact did loose most of it, in the fight for independence. Many not only lost wealth, but also family. Don't even try and belittle their sacrifice, boy.

Long before Chirac came around, France had a habit of knifing its American allies, so do not think for a moment that it is new or that it started with the war in Iraq.

So, you are saying that we should stand in awe that the French people are overwhelming Socialistic? Your paragraphs are a bit cumbersome in that section of your post, but I believe I read that right. Sorry. Apparently your short stint in the states didn't give you enough time to realize we aren't too fond of socialism.

You know, I don't give two hoots in Hell about what you are your now fellow Frenchmen think about my president. He is our president, see? He is to have our interests at heart, not yours. You haven't a clue what a war-monger is, anymore than you are correct in saying that we are no better than Islamofascists for not being to awefully cozy with your new soul mates. Doing what it takes to keep your citizenry safe is not being a war-mongerer, and disliking the French and their government because of what we've seen from them since 1948 is not the same as lobbing peoples' heads off in a most horrfic manner.

Your ignorance due to your youth can be excused, but your smugness can't be stomached. I don't find you overly intelligent because you've gone to school abroad. I've got about 6 years of college right here in the U.S., my time in Europe was spent in another sort of educational program - the U.S. Army. I know the French people as well as the Germans and the Brits. I've drank beer with representatives of those three nations before you were born, so don't try and preach or teach to me, youngster. You just go on over there and enjoy yourself. Talk with your new friends and tell them how barberic we are in actually defending ourselves from the very ones that are taking France over from within, quietly. Laugh about your backward kinflok in Mississippi all you'd like. I've tossed a few back with a good many of them, too, and let me tell you, you aren't man enough to carry the lunch of most of the women there, so I see why you'd go to France.

By the way, we are aware of the fact that pomme frits are not from France. Glad you learned something new. More the reason not to call them "French" fries.

Claim to deny hatred if you'd like, but at the same time, try and deny ignorance, too. I think if you'll learn a bit more, you arrogant traitor, you'll learn that your new friends aren't that swell, and there is a reason France is not a favorite of ours and it is older than this war.

First welcome to the board and if you feel that the only thing that can get you to post is to defend France then welcome. I however, will always be a very Proud American and NO ONE can ever change that. I will vote for President Bush again for I feel he is the best person to lead our country and will not turn our military over to others. Unlike, Kerry who has voted against so many things when he did design to vote. I think you and others need to check and read up on this man for I have on both people.
The choice of yours to stay in France and marry is just that...your choice. Your family is here and I am sure they support and love you. They can go see you if you chose not to come to this country. I chose not to buy things made in France as I have done researches to find that our (American) made products are being boycotted in France and several other countries. Here is one website I found www.stopusa.org... that is doing that against us. So I exercise my right against them. So to give us Americans equal time here is our website : www.boycottwatch.org... .
Hopefully, one day we will all live together in peace but I don't see that happening anytime soon.
Take care and I do hope that one day you and your Wife to be will be able to come to America.

Originally posted by Thomas Crowne

Claim to deny hatred if you'd like, but at the same time, try and deny ignorance, too. I think if you'll learn a bit more, you arrogant traitor, you'll learn that your new friends aren't that swell, and there is a reason France is not a favorite of ours and it is older than this war.

What the hell crawled up your ass TC?
Just because the guy defends France you call him an arrogant traitor?

If you disapproved of him calling Bush what we all know he is, you could have responded in a less hate filled manner.

[edit on 3-10-2004 by AceOfBase]

Bush's whole anti-France campaign is really stupid. I went up to Canada with a bunch of friends, one of whom happens to a French citizen. So, they made her get out of the car, and wait in line so they could harass her, before they would let us through.

Some of these Republicans are hillarous. Especially, those people who could make more money, working 35 hours a week, and have lots of paid vacation under France's policies, but they attack the socialism. These people are just hillarous.

I also know where the rich Republicans come from. They at least know what they somewhat what they are dong, but some of those people are scary. They did promise me that if I joined them, they would me cheat on my taxes, and they were talking about becoming an oil executive, but I'm really not interested in that.

The best part is where all the Republicans sit around and joke about how many people they've scammed. I guess it is good to relieve the pressure from saying crap all the time. Although, I guess this anti-French stuff is going a little far. Although, I guess how they see it, only the idiots are boycotting the French, which means lower prices for them.

Originally posted by Thomas Crowne
You know, I don't give two hoots in Hell about what you are your now fellow Frenchmen think about my president. He is our president, see? He is to have our interests at heart, not yours.

Well, actually, only about 20% of the people in the US voted him into office. He doesn't have my interests at heart.

Get with the times. You blame France for not blindly following the US into attacking a sovereign nation without provocation. You're probably one of those types that thinks it's unpatriotic to raise your voice in defiance of the "president".

Please.

Respect does not come with the title of president and thus has to be earned. It's time that someone ripped the proverbial silver spoon from Bush's mouth along with a few of his teeth. That'd wipe the sneer off his face that so many of us got to witness this previous thursday.

Pardon my poor allusion, but if the presidency were a child's play toy, in small block letters on the box it would say "Respect not included".

Originally posted by coronamoz
Get with the times. You blame France for not blindly following the US into attacking a sovereign nation without provocation. You're probably one of those types that thinks it's unpatriotic to raise your voice in defiance of the "president".

Actually, I am someone that currently is planning NOT to vote for Bush this year, so I guess that I do not blindly follow the leader. That said, though, what was the excuse back when we went to bomb Libya? It was a different president in office then, and still we got knifed in the back by a certain country that made our pilots have to fly halfway around Europe. Without naming any names, can you refresh my memory as to which country that might have been?

Thomas

What are you, the next Colonel? You sure have gone militant rightwing all of a sudden.

If the man wanted to leave, good on him. Some people never have the guts to "move" like people are always saying they should. Sounds to me like the same reason most people move to America. But they're all traitors too.

[edit on 4-10-2004 by KrazyJethro]

Originally posted by coronamoz
Well, actually, only about 20% of the people in the US voted him into office. He doesn't have my interests at heart.

20% coronamoz?.... Where do you get this figure from, France?

As to the question of why is it that many Americans don't like France and most french people.... Well, the french have been hating us and backstabing us for a long time... finding excuses in everything the US does to bash the US...what did you expect?

Originally posted by Muaddib
As to the question of why is it that many Americans don't like France and most french people.... Well, the french have been hating us and backstabing us for a long time... finding excuses in everything the US does to bash the US...what did you expect?

I posted a thread not to long ago
www.abovetopsecret.com...

Asking about the Anti American sentiment. In conversations with my brother in law (he just became a French citizen after comming there from Cambodia in the 70's) the anti Americanism is pretty strong. And really its not just Bush. As TC and other have pointed out its been around for some time. Subdued not doubt when we were really needed to keep the Soviets at bay (Don't start about French aid in the Revolutonary War, or that we had our interests at heart during the cold war, I know that as well). France took every oppurtunity to backstab the US over the past decade. The fact that they were selling weapons to Iraq even as we were massing troops for an invasion, and then tried to play itself off as the keeper of the moral highgrounds. We are proud of our country and its might, and I dare say the American bashing far exceedes the French bashing on ATS by a comfortable ratio.

Thank you to all that posted, and especially to those that were civil.

For those of you still hung up on some list of things that France has done since whenever, there is something I would like to clarify. My argument here is that POLITICS and the PEOPLE of both countries are quite separated; it will always be this way in a republic.

As Coronamoz pointed out, a tiny twenty percent of the US population was sufficient to place Bush in office. Voter turn outs are a bit higher over here, but not higher than 55 or 60 percent usually. With so few people motivated to particapate in their governments, and perhaps especially at this moment given the last elections in the US and in France, the governments are not so representative of the people.

This post-political universality, occasionally mistaken for ignoring history and simply recognizing your fellow man as fellow man, is the very same principle that allowed TC to sit down and have a beer with a Frenchman in spite of his feelings about France. When "France" does this or that, it is mostly always "Chirac" and not "the French". Same goes for any country.

TC, while its true I did not choose to go into the Army, we haven't met each other, so I'm not sure how you pretend to know so much about me. Traitor? Generations of my family has served in the lower rankings of the Armed Forces. 18 months ago, I listened to the 21 gun salute at my only grandfather's funeral.... at late term Vietnam casualty resulting from a rare leukemia linked uniquely to Agent Orange. My family is one that has paid with more than money. I am not disrespecting anyone at all here, and certainly not your service. I didn't attack you in any way whatsoever. I didn't mention the Armed Forces, call you "boy," or insult your manhood. I don't know you so it would be ludicrous of me to attack you. I'm not sure how an anti-hate post can draw such a violent remark.... (shrug) maybe it was all those beers. The hatred might have been around forever, and I don't care who started it. What do you say we end it with ourselves today? If you make it to Paris anytime before I land back in the states or elsewhere, U2U me and I'll buy you a beer, TC, to drink to that.

To those that boycott, cheers to you for acting on what you believe in. I looked at those websites and apparently there are some French people organized against to boycott American products. It was explained in French as a gesture against "Mercantile Warfare." While tit-for-tat seems fair on some level, I think each group (American and French) is making the same mistake: the people truly dependant on these industries for survival are nothing like Chirac and Bush, and probably didn't vote in the last elections. My only suggestion is that the people that suffer in some way from these actions are always people way more similiar to us than we imagine (with families, bills, taxes, deaths, domestic problems, etc.).

Why expend any of our personal energy making anyone at all suffer? Don't we all agree that suffering sucks? Isn't there enough BS in life as it is? In truth, that hate is harming the hater more than anyone else.

It's amazing, France was a close US ally, right up until they publicly condemned our illegal invasion of Iraq and Afghanistan, then all of a sudden we hate them. It is pathetic how easliy manipulated the american public is. Bonjour by the way. I think I will have a Crepe today.

Originally posted by twitchy
It's amazing, France was a close US ally, right up until they publicly condemned our illegal invasion of Iraq and Afghanistan, then all of a sudden we hate them

The sentiment was two ways way before the Iraq issue even appeared on the Radar. That may have taking things to a boil. No one is being manipulated the facts speak just fine on thier own.......

To have a "Super Moderator" treating newcomers like this is completely unnacceptable. Situations like this do nothing for ATS, and I am of the impression that the staff system here is completely uncontrolled. While myself and others are rightly reprimanded for perceived insults, the same cannot be said for the "elite".

I'm starting to see why there was a question on a recent ATS survey asking whether we believed the moderators here were on a power trip, and why I chose "Yes". I find a few to be completely arrogant, on both sides of the political spectrum. The double standards showing through are now plain as day.

"Deny Ignorance"... my arse.

I hate to break this to all of you but the french people, for the most part DO hate us Americans. Case in point I was recently in Turkey, (a muslim country) and whle I had a lot of discussions with turkish muslims about U.S. foreign policy and some discussons did get heated, they were alwys friendly, and wthout animosity. I left turkey and then flew to france, where I was forced to physically defend myself from two frenchmen in thier 30 for no other fact than that I was american and made the "mistake" of admitting that was both a republican and a Bush supporter. These were businessmen older than myself also dressed in nice suits, not street punks or angry teenagers. (as an aside the sight of three guys in three piece suits duking it out must have been relativly entertaining for the onlookers) I hadn't even been talking to them, rather I had been having a conversation with a business associate at a nearby table when they overheard us discussing the validity of the war n Iraq. So livid were they that I supported president Bush that they verbally accosted me and when I told them that I was engaged in a private conversation and I would aprreciate it if they would leave my associate and myself alone one of them attacked me. The fact that I was forced to defend myself for no other reason than the fact that I held a differing opinion is IMHO ludicrous.

Originally posted by cargo
To have a "Super Moderator" treating newcomers like this is completely unnacceptable....

I completely agree. I've been here for a while and see it far to often. We are all individuals, and have different opinions on things. That's how it is. The only arrogant person in this thread is TC.

ULTIMATE ANTI-FRENCH CONSPIRACY:




Pepe le Peu

French skunk (stinky) who's a dead romantic always after his sweet cherie with his l'odeur d'love.

Are they saying love stinks, or Frenchmen stink and cats hate skunks?

OMG! Did the French hate all start with Warner Brothers?

Originally posted by AceOfBase

What the hell crawled up your ass TC?
Just because the guy defends France you call him an arrogant traitor?

If you disapproved of him calling Bush what we all know he is, you could have responded in a less hate filled manner.

[edit on 3-10-2004 by AceOfBase]

I agree Ace. I can't find any other word to qualify calling someone an arrogant traitor over this than the word 'histeria'.
After all the throwing around of accusations of being a traitor (generally thrown by conservatives, against people who were American-spirited enough to exercise their free speech against the deception of the Bush administration), I have tagged the word as a good BS detector. Anyone wantonly throwing it at his opponent sets off my BS alarm, and keeps it ringing until further notice

U.