Laptop just shuts down on it's own!? Help?

Originally posted by TheProphetMark
reply to post by 74Templar

 

Mind mailing me your swap-out set?

Just kidding

If I could I would .

Problem is to send it from Australia to Canada would probably cost more than the RAM

First double check that the ram is seated properly. I worked on a laptop where the ram was slightly unseated and it was causing random shutdowns.

Originally posted by BinarySamurai
First double check that the ram is seated properly. I worked on a laptop where the ram was slightly unseated and it was causing random shutdowns.

Honestly..
I've never removed a RAM or even replaced one before. I'm not much of a hardware person to be honest, and I was told if you insert it the wrong way you could ruin it.

I checked my RAM and saw that I have two cards. 1 is a 2 GB, and the other is 1.

According to my System information; My installed memory is 3.00 GB (2.75 usable)

If it wasn't installed/seated right than the information wouldn't have showed up correctly as it did right? Any tips on how to remove the RAM properly to avoid damaging it? I'm probably going to take 1 RAM out and leave it out, until the shutdown happens again then switch, and if it does it the 2nd time than it can't be much of a RAM problem right?

reply to post by TheProphetMark


Try it, yes that could test it one way.

First off, make sure you are not on a carpeted floor. Kitchen tiles or vinyl. Static from your body can cause worse damage. Most consider this an old wives tale, but I always practice it, just to be safe.

Just be careful pulling it out. It will either have a lock on one side or both, like a little lever, that needs to be unlocked, but not always. If not it will just be between two gates. Usually in laptops they are on their side, whereas in desktop they tend to be standing up.

From there just slowly pull it out a bit at a time, squarely from the edges until it basically comes loose. but I would defientely try making sure it is seated properly first. It can cause the same problem.

Good luck

You can have poorly seated ram that would run at startup but at the slightest nudge of the computer stop working due to it being loose. That was my friends problem it was as simple as just pushing it back in all the way. What worries me is the fan had a chipped piece. This says a lot about a possible heat problem and the possibility that the machine might have been dropped or someone tried to stick something in the fan area while it was on. Damaged fan mean possible heat damage.

Now I would recommend changing the fan out if all other test fail. If it's still failing there is damage elsewhere on this machine.

reply to post by TheProphetMark

You need to hit F8 before it boots to get the Recovery Menu from windows. Safe mode, memory check thingy, a few others, all listed in a text menu.

reply to post by BinarySamurai


I would have to agree. Failing RAM and a possible heat problem, it could be anything up to a damaged CPU or even motherboard that could cause a shutdown. In my own experience I usually start with either those two, and go up from there, as most times it is these two that cause shutdowns. Problem is, if it is the CPU or the motherboard, then it is really not worth fixing, as it would be more than the entire laptop to replace.

Originally posted by 74Templar
reply to post by TheProphetMark

 

Try it, yes that could test it one way.

First off, make sure you are not on a carpeted floor. Kitchen tiles or vinyl. Static from your body can cause worse damage. Most consider this an old wives tale, but I always practice it, just to be safe.

Just be careful pulling it out. It will either have a lock on one side or both, like a little lever, that needs to be unlocked, but not always. If not it will just be between two gates. Usually in laptops they are on their side, whereas in desktop they tend to be standing up.

From there just slowly pull it out a bit at a time, squarely from the edges until it basically comes loose. but I would defientely try making sure it is seated properly first. It can cause the same problem.

Good luck

Old wives tale or not, I always follow those tips. I always touch a peice of metal before touching any peice of hardware inside my laptop when I'm doing repairs. I read somewhere a long time ago that touching a peice of metal gets ride of any static charge or something like that?

I'm going to follow your advice, on removing my RAM tomorrow. I think you described it throughly and should rather be easy to do, I hope.

Originally posted by BinarySamurai
You can have poorly seated ram that would run at startup but at the slightest nudge of the computer stop working due to it being loose. That was my friends problem it was as simple as just pushing it back in all the way. What worries me is the fan had a chipped piece. This says a lot about a possible heat problem and the possibility that the machine might have been dropped or someone tried to stick something in the fan area while it was on. Damaged fan mean possible heat damage.

Now I would recommend changing the fan out if all other test fail. If it's still failing there is damage elsewhere on this machine.

Speaking of nudging...

Did your friend ever experience sudden dark screens? As if your screen turned off, but the PC remains turned on? To fix this, I just close my laptop and open it back up and the screen comes back on and I just login and continue where I left off.

Was wonder if a RAM being lose would cause that problem as well and not just sudden shutdowns? I sometimes nudge my laptop accindently and the screen would go back. Happened a few times to me.

Originally posted by 74Templar
reply to post by BinarySamurai

 

I would have to agree. Failing RAM and a possible heat problem, it could be anything up to a damaged CPU or even motherboard that could cause a shutdown. In my own experience I usually start with either those two, and go up from there, as most times it is these two that cause shutdowns. Problem is, if it is the CPU or the motherboard, then it is really not worth fixing, as it would be more than the entire laptop to replace.

If it's the CPU or motherboard, I would just ignore it until I save up enough money to buy another laptop to avoid going through all that trouble, so I agree with you on that. Only option left for me, is to check the RAM 1 by 1 and to make sure they aren't lose. Will probably do a Hard drive check too.

I've got two things to check for tomorrow that I haven't done yet. Hopefully, it's one of the two otherwise I'll just suffer through the sudden shut downs. Truth be told, it really doesn't bother me all that much because most days it runs rather good for me.

Thanks for all your help everyone, and I will be sure to reply tomorrow about my progress incase any of you guys are interesting if I got it working or not.

Good night everyone.

reply to post by TheProphetMark

I agree with the others that CPU temperature and RAM are the most likely sources for your problems but I have different solutions to share.

Regarding RAM, the BIOS usually allows manual setting of the memory refresh interval. One setting attempts to read the serial EEPROM on each RAM card to identify the RAM manufacturers recommended setting values; verify your BIOS is set to read the RAM SPD EEPROM. While your are looking at BIOS settings, verify the processor is not set to "Over Clocking" or "Turbo Mode", just select "Standard" operating modes. Also verify the BIOS is setup to fold-back the clock speed as the CPU internal temperature limit is approached.

Regarding CPU temperature, the internal CPU temperature can often be very different from the CPU case or heat-sink temperatures. Most CPU's should only reach 70C internal temperature at the highest processor loading and at the highest ambient temperatures. If you are routinely reaching 90C and routinely noticing that the CPU fan does not speed up I strongly suspect that the "Phase-Change" material between the CPU and heat-sink/fan assembly was damaged by previous overheating from fan damage. I have personally measured more than 40C temperature difference across a damaged 0.004" thick Phase-Change pad on an Intel processor. You can either purchase a new Phase-Change pad or removed the pad entirely and use silver impregnated thermal grease between the CPU and heat-sink/fan assembly.

I used the grease solution on this computer to solve its mysterious shutdown problems and it has been worked perfectly for 2 years now.

I hope my thoughts on this matter are of value.

Best of luck and best regards,
Z

Originally posted by TheProphetMark

Originally posted by BinarySamurai
You can have poorly seated ram that would run at startup but at the slightest nudge of the computer stop working due to it being loose. That was my friends problem it was as simple as just pushing it back in all the way. What worries me is the fan had a chipped piece. This says a lot about a possible heat problem and the possibility that the machine might have been dropped or someone tried to stick something in the fan area while it was on. Damaged fan mean possible heat damage.

Now I would recommend changing the fan out if all other test fail. If it's still failing there is damage elsewhere on this machine.

Speaking of nudging...

Did your friend ever experience sudden dark screens? As if your screen turned off, but the PC remains turned on? To fix this, I just close my laptop and open it back up and the screen comes back on and I just login and continue where I left off.

Was wonder if a RAM being lose would cause that problem as well and not just sudden shutdowns? I sometimes nudge my laptop accindently and the screen would go back. Happened a few times to me.

I've seen that happen with heat damage to the motherboards built in video display. Screen goes black but machine continues running. Also I've seen a machine to to a tri color screen during an over heating episode. Another thing depending on the processor. The icore processors heat issues were toned down a bit with a bios update, but this was more of a Dell laptop issue with icore and more particularly the icore 5 and 7 processors.

For the first few months of owning my new dell studio it was hitting 90 - 100 c and crashing, Bios update cured it now its been running a cool 50 - 70 c for the last 3 years unless I really tax the system with running multiple adobe cs tools or play games with maxed out graphics.

Originally posted by DrZrD
reply to post by TheProphetMark

 

I agree with the others that CPU temperature and RAM are the most likely sources for your problems but I have different solutions to share.

Regarding RAM, the BIOS usually allows manual setting of the memory refresh interval. One setting attempts to read the serial EEPROM on each RAM card to identify the RAM manufacturers recommended setting values; verify your BIOS is set to read the RAM SPD EEPROM. While your are looking at BIOS settings, verify the processor is not set to "Over Clocking" or "Turbo Mode", just select "Standard" operating modes. Also verify the BIOS is setup to fold-back the clock speed as the CPU internal temperature limit is approached.

Regarding CPU temperature, the internal CPU temperature can often be very different from the CPU case or heat-sink temperatures. Most CPU's should only reach 70C internal temperature at the highest processor loading and at the highest ambient temperatures. If you are routinely reaching 90C and routinely noticing that the CPU fan does not speed up I strongly suspect that the "Phase-Change" material between the CPU and heat-sink/fan assembly was damaged by previous overheating from fan damage. I have personally measured more than 40C temperature difference across a damaged 0.004" thick Phase-Change pad on an Intel processor. You can either purchase a new Phase-Change pad or removed the pad entirely and use silver impregnated thermal grease between the CPU and heat-sink/fan assembly.

I used the grease solution on this computer to solve its mysterious shutdown problems and it has been worked perfectly for 2 years now.

I hope my thoughts on this matter are of value.

Best of luck and best regards,
Z

I cringe at the thought of having to take a laptop apart to get to the cpu. I don't mind desktops but laptops are horrible and I tend to lose those damned little screws easily.

Seeing as you've had the thing apart, and you took the fan off and broke off a fin it could be almost anything.

As the fan will not be spinning properly, despite it appearing so, it will be throwing more weight and want to rattle. So that could be nudging the heatsink on the chip. Did you remove the heatsink as well? Did you reapply thermal paste to make sure it's got a solid contact?

Also heat can also be an issue for the board or parts connected to it. If you had been even slightly rough with it, and I know how finicky it can be to open up laptops, then once the machine is warm, the board or some connector may develop a slight gap. This could simple shut the machine down. In fact, that sounds like the problem from what you say.

If you don't have the memory checker under boot options while pressing F8, you can download a small linux iso cd image, burn it to cd or expand it to a bootable usb stick if your laptop allows use boot devices, and it's specifically for checking memory. MemTest86 Web Site, it's free or you can pay a small fee and have them ship you a cd.

The other thing I can only think of is that during the time the machine was overheating due to the broken fan, the chip suffered damage that makes it fail at lower than dangerous temperatures. The hotter they run, the quicker they die. If it was running extremely hot for an extended time, it just may be too far gone.

If you look under the laptop, there should be a plate screwed in, usually in older laptops that is where the ram is stored, and other parts, but I'm going back a long way to the old dell inspiron and latitudes I had to work with years ago. It would be easy to see the levers on the side where it clips in. All ram is keyed a specific way with a notch along the pin connectors that tells you the orientation the chip goes in. The only way you'd damage it by putting it back in is if you had to bash it in the wrong way.. sort of a no brainer

Touching a metal plate wont really help to clear your body of static charge. You need to touch something grounded. we used to have static straps that we wore on our wrists that had an alligator clip that we connected to the pc case.

I say that, none of us ever did, and I've never done so at home. I do make sure that I never touch the metal connectors on cards or chips, never had a component die from that. But it's good practice, and certainly I'd be negligent to say don't worry about it.

I used to have an old motherboard that I had to wedge a peice of paper between the board and the metal case, to give it a curve. It would turn on, and then once warm, fail. It was very old however, so I didn't really care, but giving it that curve kept the board running once warm. You can never find these slight breaks in the circuitry, so if it's that, repairing it might be more costly than getting a new laptop.

You can keep the hdd from this one, install it in the new one, or purchase a cheap 2.5" usb caddy and have it as an external drive.

Another thing I just thought of. Does it shut down while you have the power supply connected? Or is it just battery? Have you checked the battery to see if it's keeping charge?It might have a series of leds and soft buttons on the inside, that you can press to determine if the battery is good.

?!

That sounds like an absolute dead-ringer for an overheating problem. A sudden, instant shutoff generally won't happen with RAM errors (you'd be more likely to have the laptop freeze), while 90 degrees celcius is MUCH too hot for a laptop. You've got a few options:

1) check for BIOS updates. As mentioned earlier, a lot of i5 and i7 CPUs had overheating issues in early releases. My laptop used to idle at around 60 degrees and hit 90/100 under load, then shut down exactly as you describe. Oddly, my laptop (a Dell 1558) had the shutdown temp set to 80 degrees, but the bios didn't seem to enforce it.

2) replace the thermal paste on your CPU. You said you've pulled the laptop apart already to get to the fan... did you check the CPU itself? Did it have sufficient contact between the heatsink and CPU (Dell Studio series do NOT - I had to buy copper shims to bridge the gap, it was over .3mm - which doesn't seem like much, but is HEAPS in heat transfer terms)? Was the thermal paste still soft and pliable?

3) replace the fan if necessary. It sounds like your BIOS isn't controlling it properly, though, so check for a bios update for that.

FINALLY...

Got any specifics? Make/model of your laptop etc.? Then maybe I can help more.

Ugh, it's almost 3am so I can't post a huge reply because I'm tried and would like to go to bed. I didn't think I'd come back on here after finishing watching a movie but for some reason I did. So I'm just going to post the make/model of my laptop before I go.

Toshiba Satalite L300D -066 System Unit
AMD Athlon(tm) X2 Dual-Core QL-60 1.90

All that talk about CPU heat sinks, and plasters; you guys may have well been speaking chineese with that stuff because that's not the sort of thing I know about when it comes to fixing computers. I'm not much of a hardware person to be honest.

i'm not too much of a computer guy,but i have to ask.
do you rely on the battery to run your laptop? if so,perhaps the battery needs replacing.
a few of my old cell phones would do this,even after fully charging them. turns out the batteries were fried,and to replace the battery cost more than a new phone!!!
any way just a thought!

There is potentially another issue that has been overlooked, and this problem is NOT necessarily easy to recognize.

Essentially, the power supply goes through the battery, but if the battery is too old, or damaged somehow, the power can't get through the battery, which in turn can cause the computer to turn off.

One way to check if this is potentially an issue is to run the laptop without the battery in it. On some laptops (older ones) the power goes through the battery before going into the computer, on newer ones the power can "bypass" the battery and power the laptop directly. If the laptop will not run with out the battery in it, I would guess that the battery could be the issue.

A friend of mine's laptop is this way, that is the only reason other than "heat", "CPU", or "RAM" issues.

best of luck.

cheers.

reply to post by TheProphetMark


When you removed the fan, was it sitting beside the cpu or right on top of it? Most laptops have a fan beside a heatsink with a pipe because there isn't space to place the fan directly over the cpu.

If you tugged or pulled at the actual heatsink, you might have lifted it off the cpu.

Processors get hot. So they use a heatsink and fan to pull the heat away from the cpu and out of the case. To make this more efficient, thermal compound, either a paste, or a pad, is placed between the cpu and heatsink. It has to be done just right, too much makes a mess and becomes less efficient, not enough or uneven, makes it less efficient, which makes the cpu get heat spikes.

The issues you've mentioned so far scream heat or power to me. I'd assume you would have tried running both from AC only, from ac with battery, and from battery only, to verify it's not a power related issue.

RAM issues cause freezes and reboots, not hard shutdowns. Since it's a laptop, most of your hardware is integrated into the motherboard, video card, audio, network, etc. This means when something starts to go, it will probably present problems with other devices.

I'd try a ram test to be sure, maybe grab "hirens boot cd" or just "memtest" and run it for at least 7 passes (1 stick at a time preferably).

If it was me, I'd suggest you get a new thermal pad, which is dirt cheap at any pc shop, remove the heatsink, clean any residue from the sink and the cpu, reseat the cpu, apply the new thermal pad, then reinstall the heaksink and fan, preferably a non broken fan.

As for the temp. Unless you installed a seperate temperature probe, it's going from the cpu itself, which gives no indication of ambient temperature at all, which is what you need to be concerned with after a failed fan.

Your cpu might be showing 80 degrees, well within it's threshold, while the ambient case temp is actually 100 degrees. Don't assume the probes are correct.

Originally posted by reficul
i'm not too much of a computer guy,but i have to ask.
do you rely on the battery to run your laptop? if so,perhaps the battery needs replacing.
a few of my old cell phones would do this,even after fully charging them. turns out the batteries were fried,and to replace the battery cost more than a new phone!!!
any way just a thought!

Laptop didn't come with the battery. Have to have the AC plugged in at all times in order to my laptop.

On the side note, I just did a Memory Diagnostic Check during bootup and there's nothing wrong. Now I'll just have to swap out the RAM and see if that's the problem.