I challenge you to prove me wrong!!!

How free are we?

Actually we are not free at all. Society dictates are every move, from the clothes we wear to the cars we drive, sure we have the choice to choose but in reality that choice is what�s actually allowable. The media dictates our tastes in ways most of you would never even realize. Advertising is a control method, not a sales method in a sense that the commercial you are seeing is showing you what is expected in life, the product which is being sold is showing you that this is what is correct. Look around and try to be more observant, clothes, houses, cars, jewelry etc. are nothing more than propaganda of how you should be living your life. For example: take someone who is oblivious to the media and then take someone who keeps up with it. Then ask them both the same �question?�

What makes you happy?

The oblivious one say�s : A nice sunny day, watching the colors on the tree�s turn in the fall, catching a big old fish in the river, watching my kids play in the grass while my wife and I just sit back and watch etc.

The media friendly one says: Gucci, Rolex, A day at the spa, my Mercedes, etc�

Now here is the part that will rock your world:

Why has the media friendly one lost all sense of true happiness and has turned to materialistic things to make them happy???

Do you know the answer? If not, I will tell you, its because you have been programmed by the media to feel that materialistic things are more important than human things which in turn makes you so much easier to control.

Ponder on that a bit�

Just My Thoughts.

If we weren't free, then the one who doesn't pay much attention to the media wouldn't exist...

We all have a choice whether or not to be slaves to what society expects to be the "norm"....

Personally, my happiness comes from relaxing with my wife and pets after work, intellectually stimulating conversation (online or otherwise), and getting together with family and friends on the weekend.... While not a "material" person, it would be nice not to worry about bills. Still, I'm stumped when it comes to making out a birthday or christmas "wish list" (as is our family custom), as I have most of what I want (that would be within reason and my family and friends' means, hehe...)

If we weren't free, then the one who doesn't pay much attention to the media wouldn't exist...

Please explain how this person would not exsist? Are you saying if the media does not show this. That it is inconcievable to believe. I beg the differ, because in a sense, this person would be free of all that is dicated to him/her through the media which in turn would allow him/her to live there life freely without any influence of what life should be ie;"The Media".

Just my thoughts

I agree with you completely. I feel that only a state of pure nature can give true freedom. Personally, I would love for society to collapse. The world would be better off without modern society.

Originally posted by daniel191159
I agree with you completely. I feel that only a state of pure nature can give true freedom. Personally, I would love for society to collapse. The world would be better off without modern society.

Especially after you starve to death or get eaten by a tiger. Or roving bandits kill you for your potato sack.

Yes, society keeps us limited in what we are 'allowed' to do. But the tradeoff is that we are generally safer and helathier. Therefore, we can afford to actually enjoy life, instead of hoping where our next meal will come from.

Why do i want to prove you wrong i agree and i agree with Esoterica.

I dont think there can be complete freedom if there is government because government is controlled by people and people are corruptable. There has never been a totally un-corrupt leader.

Couldn't have said it better myself. Accept the fact that I am not sure if that is called freedom. That is called "conditioning" in Psychology Example: Kids raise thier hands before they speak.

Originally posted by Justmytype I will tell you, its because you have been programmed by the media to feel that materialistic things are more important than human things which in turn makes you so much easier to control.

At what point in history was "man" (we apish humans) not interesting in improving our materialistic stature as compared to others? This is nothing new... we're just more efficient at communicating what cool stuff is available on which to blow our borrowed cash.

How free are we?

The notion of freedom began in the west with the onslaught of Christianity, but even here, it was an inner freedom; As we see Paul returning a a runaway slave to his master, and in another circumstance, telling a slave to be content with his stature. And before, in ancient Greek, the Greco philosophical elite had no theme revolving around freedom. Thomas Hobbes, the 17th century philosopher, gives us a more liberal definition: " Freedom is the abscence of restriction". It is not untill the "age of enlightenment" that we see freedom becoming a more secular concern and a fundamental aspect of modern day democracy. Hence forth, we see a parry of philosophers contesting freedom and it's dynamic attributes to society and democracy. So we will leave freedom to be defined in it's more liberal format, "freedom is the absence of restriction"; and, if this is true, then no freedom exists at all, well, not in the modern secular world.

"Man is born free, and everywhere he is in chains." : Jean Jacques Rosseau began his famous treatise The Social Contract with this universaly dicated line.

I'd agree with Justmytype that lots of people are enslaved by the society that forces them to do things that they do not need or want.

For example, some unhappy is told that we will be happy if he buys a Mercedes.
Now he works a few years to save that money ( slaves for the society ), finally he buys the car and... is he happy? Maybe for a few days, but then he starts his old song again - I will he happy when I will buy a new house. He is looking for happiness everywhere outside, but not within him.

But I don't think that the ones are consciously controlling others. If you would be a truly FREE owner of any factory, would you force your products onto others? Guess not, you would try to help others also to become free. So the factory owner who thinks "the more cars I sell the happier I would be" is also the same slave.

Once a young king was riding though his country, escorted with his people, throwing golden coins to simple people who bowed in front of their king. Yet one poor beggar did not bow, he was standing straight, smiling, looking at the king. The king saw that this beggar was his father - the old king who had left the country years ago to become a Dervish. The young king offered his father food, a horse and everything else, but he said that the old help he can accept would be if his son would fill this wooden cup with a few coins. So the young kind started pouring gold into his fathers wooden cup. Soon the first sack ran out and he ordered his people to the palace for more. Another sack of gold went into the cup, but it was still empty. After pouring 40 sack of gold into the cup and it remaining empty, he told his father "This is some devil's cup, no matter what I throw in it, it will still be empty!" The old king smiled and said "My son, I am very, very happy that you understood it after throwing only 40 sacks of gold into it. I have thrown my youth, my best years into it, my health, hundreds of palaces, harems and thousands of slaves into it and it still remained empty. It is the cup of wishes, it is always empty."

As it looks to me, at least 2/3 of the society are "happy" with the way everything is and they do not want any miraculous and mysterious freedom. Yet when I started looking that way I was very surprises to see that there are also a lot of truly free people out there. Maybe even some 5%. The fun part is that they are transparent for the society. The society does not notice anybody who is outside its schematic.

Once there was a Dervish - a person who was learning to be free. All he had was an old robe, a wooden plate and a stick. We was walking from town to town, helping people and getting food for it. One he walked into a town where he knew another Dervish is living. He was really surprised when he saw that this Dervish lived in a golden palace. They set in his garden and the first Dervish started telling him about how he is walking from town to town and how many beautiful places he has been to. The second Dervish was so intrigued that he wanted to go with him - let's go he said and stood up. "Wait," said the first Dervish " we have to return to your palace, I have left my wooden plate there!"

Now who of them was truly free?

well, since this thread is in an "i agree with" mood...

I AGREE with Gazrok. The materialist and the oblivious both would not exist if it were not for our freedom. You make your own choices. Sure, its pretty hard when you're indocrinated since childhood, but obviously you can think and discern for yourself. Nobody forced you to watch that advertisment, and nobody forced you to buy the product. You chose. Similarly you can choose not to buy the product. You can choose to escape the materialistic, and become a hermit in the woods, hunt and gather your own food and make your own clothes. Its up to you. YOU are free but sadly you're not the only inhabitant of this planet and therefore have to tolerate materialists who too make their own choices.

"we are not free at all" is an obvious false statement and it doesnt take much to prove so.

[edit on 30-9-2004 by lost]

youre free as you want to be. you have the choice to do all the things you mention above or you can stop fill a backpack buy a bedroll and get out there start travelling and stop when you feel you are in the right place , weather it be in another big city or another country or even if you go ferel and live naked in a hippy comune living off the land.
you see the choice is yours to take, i have travelled the whole east coast of austrailia and half way around the great austrailian bight with not much more than a bag on my back and a swag on my side and that was from the age of 16 / 30 i would work here and work there once i was board with my surroundings i would just move on. Until i finally stopped in adelaide it's your choice, open the door and walk outside and keep walking it is then and only then you will prove yourself wrong.

Freedom as described as "the absense of restrictons" can exist for one person or a small group of persons but can not exst for ll persons. To illustrate allow me to quote lyrics from a popular song.
"they saw america is the land of the free, but if you think your free walk into a deli and try to urinate on the cheese"
Now as this example shows total freedom would give you the abillity to walk into a deli and urinate on the cheese however in doing so you would take away the deli owners freedom to sell his wares and his customers freedom to buy clean cheese.
Freedom is the abillity to do as you wish so long as in doing so you do not infringe on anyone else freedom.

>>Freedom is the abillity to do as you wish so long as in doing so you do not infringe on anyone else freedom.

The fun part here is that when one has become truly free he doesn NOT want to do anything that would infringe on anyone else freedom, yet haveing great powers to do so.

Don't ask me why, I'm not fully free, so I donno why it is that way.

Why would a free person, who is lives as "I AM" , would want to urinate on someone???

This is not about control or freedom. Its all about money. These high priced companies pay these celebs and the media to promote their product. The entire industry is funded by marketing. You don't make a dime off of producing these shows. Its the product placement and advertisements that cause this. You are not being brainwashed they are just pimping their products onto you and you are trying to meet the status quo. Its your choice if you want to meet the standards of the general population or if you want to break away from them. I myself have some particular tastes and I do too enjoy some of the finer things in like. I would like a nice car and wear some nice expensive clothes, but me wanting these things has nothing to do with my freedom. I can choose to make a trade with a homeless person and where his attire from now on. Although with the urine stains and BO that has been soaked into them for the time he has been wearing them would probably detract me from making such a bold move.

I just think you maybe looking at this the wrong way though. These people want you to spend money on their product so you can make their company richer along with all the execs. They are going to saturate your mind with all of these things so you do think about them and you do want to buy that new Louis Vuitton purse (My GF is addicted to these) or that new Hugo Boss leather jacket. You see this stuff all the time and you are going to say, "Hey, thats a cool jacket, I want one of those". This isnt an attack of your freedom.

My other theory would be that its all about the mating game. You want to secure yourself into the dating pool so you go out and you start dressing in the attire to fit the clique thats the type of partner your after tends to like. So if you are after Punk Rock girls, you are more likely to dress like that crowd does (although this immediately makes you NOT punk rock, but I digress). Your tastes, who you like and what you like will always dictate on what you wear buy and shoot for. Its conformity, yes, but that doesnt mean you are not free. I have seen friends literally change all their goals and aspirations in pursuit of certain girls. One day hippie, next day yuppie, then goth, then punk. Of course this was years ago back when we were in high school still searching for this ever elusive "identity".

We live in a free market society and this allows the powers that be along with everyone else and their mother to try and push things onto you. If you gots the money to push a little harder, you are going to use that so sales will go up. These people spend billions of dollars trying to make something more appealing to you. Thats just the way it is and it doesnt take you away from your right to get your butt out of the POP culture whirlwind, shut off the damn TV, stop reading US Weekly and start living your life.

there is a difference between conformity and freedom and happiness right ?

I'm not free to cheat on my taxes, or committ crime, but I am free to vote for my candidate of choice, to pursue my career of choice, to cross state lines without being stopped at a check point.

My family and friends and pets make me happy

madison avenue does influence me, but not to the point where I don't free

Your free because.....

You can goto the airport anytime and leave the country.

and I have proved you wrong

In a society of one you can be completely free.

The minute someone else shows up, your options are limited and you are no longer free (they might want that particular macademia nut that you thought about eating.)

Therefore, the answer is to buy a boat and go live out on the ocean by yourself. You might have some boat repair issues... but you might not. Or go live in the middle of a river on a houseboat (lots of people do.)


Now, me, I kinda like creature comforts and I do love coming home at night to someone warm and loveable to snuggle (after 32 years it's a habit, y'know) and cats to meow at me and I like my toys. So I trade "being to do totally what I want and completely free" for things that bring me what I want. I like storm warnings and I like my garbage picked up and all that.

So it's a tradeoff. Become a society of one and you can be totally free.

Thank You to all

I posted this post to find out how many people felt society dictated thier lives versus those who choose to make thier own decisions. This post showed evidence in both, some for and some against. So in a nutshell, "Freedom is Choice, the right to choose" So in that case why does society make the person who chooses to disconnect from it. "Poor, Ignorant, Un educated etc. and the one's who embrace it, smart, wealthy etc. in reality this case study showed if you dont adhere to societies ways of living, then you are ignorant but then "ignorance is not finding truth for yourself" which in turn means in this case your choice is dictated by society.

think about that and being free.

Just my thoughts.. thanks to all who participated in this post.

This post is just a big whine. Everything we see, do, touch, tate, smell, etc. influences our future decisions. it's called SOCIALIZATION. The way interperet symbols dictates our behavior. All this 'freedom in nature without government' is a delusion.

You are free to do whatever you want, just be aware that there are consequences. Unless you are a sun-starved slave in a graphite mine somewhere in India, shut up about the United States not being free. There is a reason it's called the "Land of Opportunity".

Sit in your chair at your desk, open a can of Coke, log onto your computer, and write an e-mail to a communist oppressed citizen of china and whine about how the United States goverment steals too much of your money, and how life sucks in the united states because we can't smoke pot, or do heroin, coc aine, or how we have governers in our expensive cars, and can't go kill people whenever we want to, or how society tells us what expensive clothes to buy...

Excactly what is society preventing you from doing?

[edit on 10/2/2004 by Rain King]