The Catholic Church brings back indulgences, can you buy your way to heaven w/ the root of all evil?

These days, you can get a deal on anything. Even salvation! Pope Benedict has announced that his faithful can once again pay the Catholic Church to ease their way through Purgatory and into the Gates of Heaven.

Never mind that Martin Luther fired up the Reformation because of them: Plenary Indulgences are back.

The New York Times reports that even though the church officially broke with the age-old practice — you do something good, and the Church will help absolve you — in 1960, the Pope has quietly reintroduced it.

www.infowars.com...

well ATS what thinkest thou:
can heaven be bought with the devil's debt based currency that is created by the same bankers that it is claimed Jesus was sent here to deliver us from?

reply to post by Danbones

Good God. We're heading back to the medieval feudal days. Un-freaking-believable.

Thanks for posting this. Maybe I'll start wearing my Renaissance garb around town instead of just at the festival.

*facepalm*

Maybe they could commercialize it and start a television show..

Win, Lose or Salvation!

I've never understood how people could fall for the idea of indulgences? .. It just doesn't seem to fit in line with the idea of God... it's ok to sin if you do something nice to balance it out .. What a joke.

I'd like to see the absolution menu before I get started. In addition, do you think they will accept installment payments, and what will happen if you don't fulfill your obligation?

when the rules start costing money and money is getting tight, change the rules.

One of the problems I have with some organized religions. They feel the need to change the rules from time to time. Does god participate in the amendment process?

8D

reply to post by miniatus


i love the game show idea!
how about reality TV?
voting peeps to hell...now thats entertainment

This thread belongs in that BTS religion forum - IMHO

The Catholic Church brings back indulgences, can you buy your way to heaven w/ the root of all evil?,

1 - The Catholic Church did NOT 'bring back indulgences'.
The fact is .. they never got rid of them.

2 - The Catholic Church does NOT say you can buy your way to heaven. That's not what an indulgence is to them. According to the Catholic faith - Salvation is through faith in Christ.

Catechism of the Catholic Church - Indulgences

1471. The doctrine and practice of indulgences in the Church are closely linked to the effects of the sacrament of penance.

"An indulgence is a remission before God of the temporal punishment due to sins whose guilt has already been forgiven, which the faithful Christian who is duly disposed gains under certain prescribed conditions through the action of the church which, as the minister of redemption, dispenses and applies with authority the treasury of the satisfactions of Christ and the saints" (Indulgentarium Doctrina norm 1).

"An indulgence is partial or plenary according as it removes either part or all of the temporal punishment due to sin" (ibid. norm 2, norm 3).

The full explaination is at the link.

Myths about indulgences

Myth 1: A person can buy his way out of hell with indulgences.
This charge is without foundation. Since indulgences remit only temporal penalties, they cannot remit the eternal penalty of hell. Once a person is in hell, no amount of indulgences will ever change that fact. The only way to avoid hell is by appealing to God’s eternal mercy while still alive. After death, one’s eternal fate is set (Heb. 9:27).

Myth 2: A person can buy indulgences for sins not yet committed.
The Church has always taught that indulgences do not apply to sins not yet committed. The Catholic Encyclopedia notes, "[An indulgence] is not a permission to commit sin, nor a pardon of future sin; neither could be granted by any power."

Myth 3: A person can "buy forgiveness" with indulgences.
The definition of indulgences presupposes that forgiveness has already taken place: "An indulgence is a remission before God of the temporal punishment due to sins whose guilt has already been forgiven" (Indulgentarium Doctrina 1, emphasis added). Indulgences in no way forgive sins. They deal only with punishments left after sins have been forgiven

More myth busters about indulgences at the link.

reply to post by Mike.Ockizard


considering the way "god" amended sodom and gomorrah, I would think it is a valid question as to will he/she amend the church in light of all the sodomy related sex scandles?
..i wonder how the priests involved will pay there way out of that?

Originally posted by Danbones
reply to post by miniatus

 

i love the game show idea!
how about reality TV?
voting peeps to hell...now thats entertainment

Survivor style... only the winner gets salvation.

This is ridiculous. I mean, it should come to no surprise that such an absurd practice found it's way back (or even existed to begin with), especially from Catholics. They reaalllyyy need to hear the Good News.

Originally posted by Mike.Ockizard
They feel the need to change the rules from time to time. Does god participate in the amendment process?

Why not? If God is around and still communicating with people to guide them or their important organizations through tough times, why wouldn't he be flexible? After all, he's the one making up the rules, so he can pretty much do what he wants. It doesn't screw up the "master plan." He's the master and it's his plan! Sometimes the rules need updates for changing times.

Of course, exactly how God communicates -- through prayers or actions or visions to prophets or Jesus's face on a tortilla, or whatever -- and what exactly qualifies as a legitimate communication and not some false word spread by a demon or the Devil is certainly up for debate. The Church is generally conservative in that regard, just so it doesn't get 10,000 contradictory "channeled" messages from God a day from delusional kooks. That makes it harder for delusional kooks with legitimate, actual and true messages from God to get through, but hey. Whadda yah gonna do? The Lord moves in mysterious ways for some unknown reason. If he really needed to get an important message through, he could figure out a way to do it.

The original article was grossly inaccurate and poorly written.
"...in 1960, the Pope has quietly reintroduced it." Huh?
It's discouraging that so many people have taken the story on its face without looking into the facts or noticing how incoherent the writing is.
There is no "sale" of indulgences. Encouraging charitable giving to help the needy is something all honorable people should support, regardless of creed (or the absence of a creed.)

reply to post by FlyersFan

The Catholic Church had technically banned the practice of selling indulgences as long ago as 1567

from the link in the OP

to be fair to your post FF i believe you are technically correct in your definition of absolvences

Indulgences replaced the severe penances of the early Church
...In Catholic theology, an indulgence is the full or partial remission of temporal punishment[1] due for sins which have already been forgiven. The indulgence is granted by the Catholic Church after the sinner has confessed and received absolution.[2] An indulgence is thus not forgiveness of sin nor release from the eternal punishment

en.wikipedia.org...
eta
were the penances not a condition of being forgiven or absolved?
as a child in confession i seem to recall the priest implying the forgiveness was contingent on doing the penance
from the above link

.Alleged abuses in selling and granting indulgences[4] were a major point of contention when Martin Luther initiated the Protestant Reformation (1517).

Originally posted by FuManchu2
The original article was grossly inaccurate and poorly written.
"...in 1960, the Pope has quietly reintroduced it." Huh?
It's discouraging that so many people have taken the story on its face without looking into the facts or noticing how incoherent the writing is.
There is no "sale" of indulgences. Encouraging charitable giving to help the needy is something all honorable people should support, regardless of creed (or the absence of a creed.)

the purpose of the thread i would hope is to encourage an expose of what the facts are, not just from the linked article in the OP, but from what ever sources the posters feel is a valid reference...
while my atitude is what it is, the readers will take from the whole thread what appears to be sensibele to them
I hope

Originally posted by Lionhearte
They reaalllyyy need to hear the Good News.

Oh, right. The "good news" that all you need to do to get into Heaven is accept Jesus as your savior? What a load of lazy, "indulgent" nonsense. Read the Bible. Don't just get it spoon fed to you by some "preacher" with issues of their own. There is no "Get Out of Hell Free" card!

Finding grace with the Supreme Entity is not just a matter of asking for it. You have to earn it. Sure, you'd like it if all the horrible things and sins you've done in this life were all magically forgiven in a flash just because you get chummy with Jesus all of a sudden. Well it doesn't work that way! Your sins burned and scarred this existence, and those scars never go away. The best you can do is try and put some balance back into the world through good deeds, but the echo of the pain you caused never goes away. You're going to still have to deal with them when you come face to face with Grandpa God, who was always pretty damned clear about what he thought about sinners. The only kind of peace you can hope for is the acknowledgement that while you're suffering in Hell, you deserved what you're getting because of your foolishness and wickedness.

And that includes spreading the nonsense of an easy, lazy salvation. Really. You know in your heart it isn't true, yet you persist. Pray for mercy. That's your best bet at this point.

Originally posted by Danbones
reply to post by FlyersFan

 

The Catholic Church had technically banned the practice of selling indulgences as long ago as 1567

from the link in the OP

So you're gonna believe a quote from an Alex Jones article which he took from a Financial website over the authority of the Catechism of the Catholic Church and the Catholic Answers website.

Protestants make a living out of misinterpereting everything the Catholic Church teaches and when was the last time you heard of one of those financial wizards getting anything right?

reply to post by Danbones

"Selling indulgences" was banned. But indulgences themselves were never stopped.
They were 'earned' through prayers and good works.

Originally posted by Danbones
were the penances not a condition of being forgiven or absolved?

I'm not seeing that in the catechism. The only condition is interior repentance (as far as I can see). What you are talking about is called 'satisfaction'. If you do something wrong, you must try to do something right, to balance it or to make restitution in some way. But doing something is not a condition for forgiveness. 'Fruitful satisfaction' could be something as simple as being sorry and saying so ...

Catechism of the Catholic Church - Penance
Some snips - God alone forgives sins ... Interior repentance is required for God to forgive ...

1450 "Penance requires . . . the sinner to endure all things willingly, be contrite of heart, confess with the lips, and practice complete humility and fruitful satisfaction."49

Contrition

1451 Among the penitent's acts contrition occupies first place. Contrition is "sorrow of the soul and detestation for the sin committed, together with the resolution not to sin again."50

Satisfaction

1459 Many sins wrong our neighbor. One must do what is possible in order to repair the harm (e.g., return stolen goods, restore the reputation of someone slandered, pay compensation for injuries). Simple justice requires as much. But sin also injures and weakens the sinner himself, as well as his relationships with God and neighbor. Absolution takes away sin, but it does not remedy all the disorders sin has caused.62 Raised up from sin, the sinner must still recover his full spiritual health by doing something more to make amends for the sin: he must "make satisfaction for" or "expiate" his sins. This satisfaction is also called "penance."

1460 The penance the confessor imposes must take into account the penitent's personal situation and must seek his spiritual good. It must correspond as far as possible with the gravity and nature of the sins committed. It can consist of prayer, an offering, works of mercy, service of neighbor, voluntary self-denial, sacrifices, and above all the patient acceptance of the cross we must bear. Such penances help configure us to Christ, who alone expiated our sins once for all. They allow us to become co-heirs with the risen Christ, "provided we suffer with him."63

Buddhists have something kinda similar. Example - If you create negative karma by killing a cat without mercy. When you finally understand that is wrong, you are sorry and try to make amends by perhaps adopting a stray cat and taking care of it.

reply to post by FortAnthem

I would hope as I said up thread that the article in the Op is a starting point for the thread.
but a reference trumps no reference

well i we us do refer to those bankers as "luciferian" on occasion, they are considered illuminated in some circles, totally wrong in others

reply to post by FortAnthem


Indulgences Return, NEW YORK TIMES

Its a bit old but yes Pope John paul started to bring them back in 2000...

As a protestant Im always surprised how little catholics actually know about their own beliefs...

reply to post by benrl

thanks
the times was alluded to in the OP

I hope we can expose the way it actually is on this thread somewhat.
i know im confused...but some of the posts have been very informative so far