Did Jesus Die?

Interesting on the last supper

here is additional thought
the 12 apostles symbolized the 12 signs of the zodiac and the 12 phases of soul evelution. At the last supper jesus cerimoniously sat in the middle of the 12 apostles, six feminine astrological signs to his left and six masculine signs to his right.While in the middle he represented the male/female polarity union.

I don't think jesus died on the cross either
gnostic teachers mani and basilides both claim that the messiah did not die on the cross and continued to live a long life after resurrection.
there are native american legends and the book of morman claim he came to america to spread his gospel.an asian legend says that jesus spent his last years among the mahanagas of india and tibet,according to the legend his final resting place is the tomb of yuz Asaf (compare jesus's hebrew name Yazu and the name Jo-seph)near Srinagar., The capitol of Kashmir died 109 ad.

I also thought I read something about a part of the some elite illuminati
group claiming they were descendents of jesus or somthing like that

Just a thought


[edit on 29-9-2004 by shadowmirror]

[edit on 30-9-2004 by shadowmirror]

Interesting that the last supper was brought in. I have just read the da vinci code, although it is FICTIONAL storyt he author claims all of the facts are as accurate as possible, and is probably more relevant for another post; though its interesting the ideas it throws up about the catholic church changing history to suit their own power base, I think thats very relevant to this question. If they can manipulate history in one way why not another? Dont forget there where over 80 gospels to chose from when the four where selected, and christ wasn't consider divine until the nicine conference. I would think that anyone who believes in the actual word of the bible is a little naive, its not that it does not have relevance and great importance as a metaphorical and allegorical text. I am not trying to upset any one or injure their religious beliefs, I am interested in what the history is.

Originally posted by bigdanprice
Don�t forget there where over 80 gospels to choose from when the four where selected, and christ wasn't consider divine until the Nicene conference. I would think that anyone who believes in the actual word of the bible is a little naive, its not that it does not have relevance and great importance as a metaphorical and allegorical text.

I agree with you BDP...

Thank you for the initial link, as it is a good reference site on this issue.

There are various examples of how the Christian church manipulated ideas within their theology (through the centuries) to suit their own purposes.

For example, most or all early Christians believed in the doctrine of reincarnation. In 533 AD, Roman emperor Justinian decided to have all references to reincarnation omitted from the Bible. Henceforth, anyone caught teaching reincarnation would be prosecuted by the government. That is why most Christians today do not accept the doctrine of reincarnation; they blindly follow the bias of a long-dead Roman emperor who decided for them what they now believe -- and they would rather cry blasphemy than do the research and come to the conclusion that reincarnation was widely accepted in Jesus' time.

Most people prefer to let others do the thinking for them. It takes the responsibility off their shoulders. That is why they let church leaders dictate to them what they should believe.

The entity, Seth, who claimed to have been a minor Catholic pope, channeled through Jane Roberts in the 1970s. He stated that Jesus never died on the cross but that another was chosen and drugged to go in his place. This is the reason why he told people after he "rose from the dead" not to touch him. The stigmata that Jesus had was a Gift of the Spirit; the same Gift which has been documented to have been given to various Catholic figures in history, like Francis of Assisi and more recently, Padre Pio.

Mary, who was never a prostitute, was the wife of Jesus and traveled with him. Jesus was known as a great prophet who went by the name, Yuz Asaf, and he traveled to the areas of Turkey, Persia and Afghanistan. Mary, as his wife, traveled with him to India (after the purported crucifixion) and they both settled and eventually died in Kashmir. Jesus' tomb was traced and found in Khanyar Street, Srinagar.

Here are some related links:

Christian Reincarnation, The Long Forgotten Doctrine

Mary Magdalene, Author of the Fourth Gospel?

Another Good Mary Magdalene Site

Jesus Lived In India After The Purported Crucifixion (A German Scholar's Findings)

Jesus Lived In India After He Supposedly Died On The Cross (A Muslim Scholar's Findings)

Was Jesus Married to Mary Magdalene? The Bible offers proof of it.

Jesus & Mary Magdalene: The Sacred Marriage in Gnosticism

The Gospel of Mary

I am really pleased that someone finally agrees with me!
Excellent info thanks PR.

My first post on here...Hi Folks.

I find this thread interesting as I am currently reading "Bloodline of the Holy Grail" by Laurence Gardner which deals directly with this issue and goes a whole lot further to explain discrepencies that exist between Gospels.
Well worth a read for those that question the traditional portrayal of events.

'Did Jesus Die?'
Of course he did. There are a lot of diaries and other writigs done at that time by people of different religions and even atheists that he died. Also there is a state record of executing the death sentence.

Originally posted by AtheiX
'Did Jesus Die?'
Of course he did. There are a lot of diaries and other writigs done at that time by people of different religions and even atheists that he died. Also there is a state record of executing the death sentence.

Yes and we all know how conscientious governments are in keeping accurate records about controversial issues.

It reminds me of the absurdity of the "single bullet theory" with the JFK assassination that the US government tried to get the public to swallow. Or the "it was only an accident" propaganda behind the Princess Diana assassination that the British government promoted. There was even a former British intelligence agent (Richard Tomlinson) that stated publicly that her murder was orchestrated by MI6 -- and went to jail for a year for breaking the rules of secrecy and talking about it. Neither official government explanations wash for anyone who does any objective investigation.

It is quite logical that the followers of Jesus/Issa intentionally misled the Roman government in order to save him from incarceration and execution and that, as Seth stated through Jane Roberts, someone was chosen and drugged to go in his place. No one in their right mind is going to willfully hand over someone to be imprisoned and killed that they see as a major spiritual figure in their lives. Followers of Issa/Jesus/Jus Asaf would have gone out of their way to thwart the Romans, which is exactly what many people believe really happened, despite the centuries of church dogma furthering the notion that he was betrayed, not saved by his disciples.

From the initial link presented for this thread:

>

Jesus/Issa being educated as a Buddhist is certainly intriguing.

Another quote from it:

>

The idea of an eighty-year-old prophet and healer named Issa/Jesus/Jus Asaf, who lived his last years in India, and who, just before dying of natural causes, proclaimed that he was the Galilean Messiah, totally changes the distorted view of Jesus of Nazareth through the centuries.

It's about time.

Originally posted by bigdanprice
A very well constructed answer but you are missing the fundamental point: That is are the gospels true, this documentary backed up by a number of respected historians claim that any mention of the resurection was not added to the gospels untill 200 years after the fact. The reason why the gospels differ widely is becaus they were written from different standpoints to justify a particular religious sects point of view.
Plus I am not saying that christ faked his death but that he went into some kind of coma, his legs weren't broken, like the criminals, though he was taken down six hours after being put up when it is well known it takes DAYS to die on the cross. Look at people in the phillipines they are regularly crucifeid and all live to tell the tale. wouldn't the disciples defend the life of their spiritual leader by dying to a cover story, stranger things have happened.
I am asking you to look at the evidence and not let your personal beliefs get in the way.

I think you are asking the question wrong bruh ...

IF Jesus went to the cross you best believe he died...
Your question would be better asked,
Did Jesus go to the cross?

~peace

Originally posted by bigdanprice
A very well constructed answer but you are missing the fundamental point: That is are the gospels true, this documentary backed up by a number of respected historians claim that any mention of the resurection was not added to the gospels untill 200 years after the fact. The reason why the gospels differ widely is becaus they were written from different standpoints to justify a particular religious sects point of view.
Plus I am not saying that christ faked his death but that he went into some kind of coma, his legs weren't broken, like the criminals, though he was taken down six hours after being put up when it is well known it takes DAYS to die on the cross. Look at people in the phillipines they are regularly crucifeid and all live to tell the tale. wouldn't the disciples defend the life of their spiritual leader by dying to a cover story, stranger things have happened.
I am asking you to look at the evidence and not let your personal beliefs get in the way.

The Gospels were written from different points of view, not for the different sects, but to cover different human viewpoints. For example, Luke was a doctor, he would see things differently than, say, Matthew.

There is no doubt that Jesus was quite dead according to the Bible. When the side was pierced and water ran from it, the blood had already separated from the water, settling down.

The most important piece of proof is that the Word of God said Christ died. Simple. He said it, I believe it and that settles it. People wanting to deny that Christ is the King of Kings will try to argue against it until the day Christ comes back. You may believe it or you may deny it, just as you may believe in Him or you may reject Him, but don't bother trying to do it scientifically.

Hey Thomas Crowne:

Actually, the word SOMA means "live body" in the Gospel of "Mark" (but then you can't read Greek, can you ?) and not PTOMA ('corpse") and after all according to Mark's gospel (which was still in the Bible the last time I looked---and therefore according to you "the word of God"--which you can't even read let alone comprehend)---Pilate was "shocked that Iesous could possibly be dead so soon..." and he ought to know, he crucified several dozen armed Galilean rebel seditionists in his day...!

Also who is this "Christ" that "died" according to you? Read Isaiah chapter 45:1 : "Behold Cyrus, my Christ....!"

Are you NOT aware that "Christos" is a TITLE and NOT A NAME?

Did Jesus Die is the name of a documentary. Which is how the original discussion started, i know realise that this has confuced some people and should be 'did jesus die on the cross?' was he resurected? Or did he die just not on the cross.

The most important piece of proof is that the Word of God said Christ died. Simple. He said it, I believe it and that settles it. People wanting to deny that Christ is the King of Kings will try to argue against it until the day Christ comes back. You may believe it or you may deny it, just as you may believe in Him or you may reject Him, but don't bother trying to do it scientifically

Well this is the point actually rather than using blind faith to look at events we are trying to determine facts. We wont find an answer to suit everyone but we can come up with a general consensus. The bible is not the word of god but of man, who with 'free will' can lead to interpretation and manipulation. By the way there were 80 gospels considered for the bible each from a different political consideration, they were organised when christ was voted to divinity some hundred years later.

Originally posted by Paul_Richard
[
Yes and we all know how conscientious governments are in keeping accurate records about controversial issues.

It reminds me of the absurdity of the "single bullet theory" with the JFK assassination that the US government tried to get the public to swallow.

Quit your 'hahaha I'm such a slayboots and you're dumb' tone.
Why do you think my post is absurdal?


[edit on 5-10-2004 by AtheiX]

Yes, he died on the cross. Next question please...

[edit on 5-10-2004 by saint4God]

Originally posted by AtheiX

Originally posted by Paul_Richard
[
Yes and we all know how conscientious governments are in keeping accurate records about controversial issues.

It reminds me of the absurdity of the "single bullet theory" with the JFK assassination that the US government tried to get the public to swallow.

Quit your 'hahaha, I'm such a slayboots and you're dumb' tone.
Why do you think my post is absurdal?

Maybe it has something to with "absurdal" not being a real word.

Seriously though...as a general rule, governments lie constantly and "official records" of anything which are surrounded by heated controversy (like the official death record of Jesus of Nazareth) should always be viewed with a certain degree of skepticism.

Slayboots


[edit on 5-10-2004 by Paul_Richard]

Did Jesus even exist to begin with?

Lets just say he did for arguments sake oh yeah and a bit of proof agrees. Convenient you decide?

I thnk most serious historians do not doubt that a Rabbi named Yeshoshua bar Yosef the Galilean lived and died in Palestine in the early 1st century (c. BC 12 to c. AD 36).

But anything beyond his crucifixion for armed sedition against Rome is somewhere in the realm of speculation. Most of the details that look like historical accounts in the gospel material are actually midrashic expansions of old testament and apocryphal material which "guided" the events of the text, even down to dialogue (cf: Wisdom of Solomon chapter 1: SORROWFUL UNTO DEATH IS THE MAN WHOM HIS BEST FRIEND HATH BETRAYED..." sound familiar? "Behold, the Son of Man is Sorrowful unto Death..." are the kinds of words placed into his mouth after Judas went, shall we say, "missing..." after he told his disciples to sell their shirts and buy swords....)

And what material is placed into the mouth of "Iesous" (to use the Greek translation of Yehoshua) in the gospels has no guarantee of histrorical accuracy, bad translations into Koine Greek from the Aramaic aside...much of this material sounds like John the Baptist...

After all, many of his socalled "disciples" were first "disciples" of John the Baptist( including Peter, his brother Andrew, and Iesous allegedly himself), and many of John's words, ideas and teachings may have been placed into the mouth of "iesous" in the gospels (two characters in history may have been melded into one in the gospel narratives), so we do not get a very clear historical picture of what he was actually like "in real life", apart from the odd snapshot or two...and even these were heavilly guided by Midrash and politico-religious agendas after the War of AD 70.

Some of these snapshots seem rather violent for a harmless little Rebbe telling harmless little parables to harmless little crowds on harmless little hills in Judaea (e.g. the Temple Tantrum) and many of the details and missing altogether (the portrait being too harsh otherwise) and seem to have been deliberatley and systematically "watered down" by later Christian "apologists" after the Jews lost the War against Rome in AD 70, at a time when the Gospels were being written down in their Greek forms...

What we do know about 1st century Palestine before the revolt of AD 70 points to "Jesus" and his Messianic Hopefuls during the 100th anniversary of the Invasion of Judaea by Rome in BC 63...

But there are clues within the text...if you only take the time and trouble to look for them...

Another twist in the tale, I am starting to think the more questions you ask of this the more questions and a thousand possible answers arise.
Interesting stuff though!

Originally posted by Der Kapitan
Did Jesus even exist to begin with?

No

Like Krishna who died on the cross;
Like Horus who was born of a virgin mother;
Like Nimrod who rose after three days in a tomb;
See, Jesus is a personification of the Sun ... Sol Invictus.






The show is about to begin

Sun's got the whole world in his hands, Sun's got the whole wide world in his hands

Your talking about the Jesus of mythology, there was a Jesus, born of Joseph (titular name of the Judean crown prince) and Miriam on March the 1st 7AD, unfortunately the Judean kings had been deposed by the Roman installation of the Herodean (Idumean) kings. Jesus unsuccessfully attempted to bring together Jews and gentiles to overthrow the Roman domination and regain the throne, he was supported by the Zadokite and Abaithar preisthoods but could not win the support of the Saduccees and Pharisees. Eventually he was sentenced to death along with Simon Magus and Judas Sicariote, however on the way to the crucifiction Simon of Cyrene took Simon Magus's place...

Simon Magus was of the Samaritan Magi and the Qumran Theriputerate, a gifted physician and student of the craft, he prepared and gave to Jesus "Vinegar mingled with gall" (Mathew 27:34), gall is a snake venom, and Jesus quickly lasped into a coma. Victims of crucifiction would often live for several days until they expired, hence Pilate was shocked that Jesus had apparently died so quickly (Mark 15:44) "and Pilate marvelled if he were already dead".

Jesus was taken down from the cross and placed in the tomb that same day as was the jewish custom, Deuteronomy 21 (His body shall not not remain all night...thou shalt in any wise bury him that day). Later on Nicodemus arrived with a great quantity of myrh and aloes (John 19:39), Extract of myrrh being a sedative and the juice of Aloes being a powerful and fast acting purgative, exactly what would be required to treat the ingestion of a measured dose of venom.

Without the ministrations of Simon and the other disciples he would surely have perished, to all intents and purposes he was "raised from the dead".

Subsequently Jesus was known to have missioned to Galatia in Persia with John Mark, and later to Rome, via Crete and Malta. His wife Mary Magdalene (remember the wedding at cana in the Gospell of St John), bore him two sons and a daughter in those times where it was safe for him to return, The Magdalene and the family of Jesus eventually ending up living on the Herodean estates of Provence in Gaul with the deposed Idumean kings themselves also exiled by Nero. From here Jesus younger brother Joseph (of Arimathea) travelled on to Britain to settle in Glastonbury on "twelve hides of land" granted to him by Caractacus the Pendragon.
The ancestors of the family of Jesus intermarried with the nobility of Britain and France, and today many prominent families trace their lineage back to early Judean royalty.

Later Jesus missioned of to India with the disciple Thomas, where he was known to the muslims as Yus Asaf, thus Jesus completed his mission, died a natural death and was buried in Kashmir. Guided by Divine revelation and subsequent research, Hazrat Mirza Ghulam Ahmad, the Founder of the Ahmadiyya Movement, located his tomb in the Khanyar Street of the city of Srinagar where it can still be visited today.

As for the Jesus of Myth....

I hear he's living on the North Pole with Santa and the Tooth Fairy....

[edit on 24-10-2004 by Flange Gasket]