Does anyone here believe they are a sort of Christian Agnostic?

Wondered if anyone shares the worldview which I lay out below - I am a Christian, but believe that there's more to this world than that which a purely fundamentalist view of the Bible would lead one to believe... If that makes sense.

By Christian, I mean that a person believes in the testimonies concerning Jesus (New Testament) and that they believe that God spoke through prophets/ priests in the Old Testament. The real bugbear for a Christian who can perceive him/herself as a Christian Agnostic is the Book of Genesis - it basically throws a spanner in the works of an educated person who nonetheless has had an experience of God through the ministry of those who follow Jesus (evangelical/ charismatic churches).

Most Christians will say that they believe in the literal truth of the entire Bible, and that if any of it were shown to be false, then none of it could be relied upon for the purpose of establishing doctrine/ contact with the Almighty. A Christian Agnostic would say that there is a chance that the Book of Genesis was originally intended to be read as a parable, or poetic explanation of the facts of Creation, but that in general, the Bible can be relied upon for matters of doctrine, and as a guidebook to seek contact with God.

I believe that God (supreme 'God with a capital g' or YHWH - 'I am') is the primary causative factor of 'all that is', including the Universe/s, the appearance of life, and a generally guided evolution (by the manipulation of DNA/ or even of the building blocks of DNA at a quantum level).

I certainly believe in evolution as a general principle, but think that humanity was 'souped-up' at some point in history - from prehistoric man to modern man in one easy step. Who did this? No idea really, except that 'Elohim' as found in the Bible can be translated in the plural as 'gods'. Sumerian records seem to illustrate that 'gods' were responsible for the appearance of humanity.

The same group who were known as 'Watchers/ Nefilim' in ancient texts may in fact still be hanging around, whizzing about in their UFOs and building structures on the moon.

What did I do about it all? Said something along the lines of: 'It's all a bit complex, so Jesus if you're really there, please would you let me know..'

Based on personal experiences of the supernatural which followed my simple prayer, I believe that Jesus is truly the 'Name Above All Names - the Alpha and Omega'. I trust him with the details of what's going on in this crazy old world. In the book of Jeremiah (Old Testament), YHWH says 'call out to me and I will show you hidden things - secret things of which you had no knowledge'.

I trust that these days, if I need to know, God will let me know. If I don't need to know - there's no sense in over-complicating my reality.

The floor is open... Please be civilised.

reply to post by FlyInTheOintment
I'll give you a star and flag for this, and raise my hand as a likely candidate. I am a firm believer in the bible, and the more I look into that, the further I see it taking me from the usual orthodoxy and views/practices of most other believers.

Regarding the Genesis accounts, while fanciful, I can still square them as I take some other unorthodox views on related matters as well, and I definitely believe the Nephilim & Watchers, along with their implications, shines a whole new light on the entire thing (I just started reading a new book by Scott Roberts on this that was covered on the new episode of MU, as the interview covered all sorts of my same kinds of thoughts on these topics).

It's a wide, weird and wonderful world with a much more colorful history, I believe, than it's usually given credit for. Take care, friend.

You/ve made up a sort of odd oxymoron: Christian Agnostic... but you're working too hard.

Most Christians will say that they believe in the literal truth of the entire Bible, ...

No, they don't. Check it out. That's a minority view among Protestants, and Protestants are a minority among Christians. The older churches supplement the Bible with Tradition (mostly non-canonical writings of relatively early Christians), and even the Protestants who don't mostly

... would say that there is a chance that the Book of Genesis was originally intended to be read as a parable, or poetic explanation of the facts of Creation, but that in general, the Bible can be relied upon for matters of doctrine, and as a guidebook to seek contact with God.

So, there's already a term for what you're describing. Mainstream Christian. Mainstream isn't such a popular word around here at ATS. Maybe just ordinary or typical Christian, then.

Hope that helps.

reply to post by FlyInTheOintment


I think "Christian" and "agnostic" is actually at odds with each other.

Christians believe Satan and God are two entirely different beings, that God actually looks like a man, and that we were all created purely to worship God.

Agnostics don't know what to think, but realize that they make their own path and their own destiny, so it's neither here nor there to them.

Personally, I think experiencing "God" doesn't require a church nor Christianity. Experiencing God is experiencing the ecstasy of the absolute lack of negative influence, emotion, or thought. Essentially, it's pure love. Why do we need churches to experience this? Because if we realized that we could do it ourselves, we would be less reliant on the churches.

Now, churches use their influence to impress upon us the one path that will absolutely, by default, lead to a good life. Too much leniency, as has been witnessed in the past, leads to the rise of tyrants, the chaos of desire, and the inevitable fall of empires. The church strives for absolute certainty, through whatever means, so as to ensure that our extremist nature, along with addictive tendencies, do not get the best of us.

The problem: humans are impulsive, greedy, and unwise.

The answer: fabricate a tale that mandates a strict path by which humans will not be lead astray, thereby securing their survival.

The church is largely responsible for the numbers we have today...although some of them created their own churches and decided to raze the villages of Africa and such. It's a shame, but it's a necessary sacrifice if it saves everyone else.

Because we really are "saved"...in the sense that we don't go out of control with all of the impulses and desires that we are too weak to fight. However, the time has come when we need the spiritual truth, not the spiritual necessity. And yes, there is a difference. Go ahead and ask me, if you want to find out.

This is my stance on the subject...I think you'll find it makes a lot of sense.

Read Bertrand Russell's "What Is An Agnostic" and you will find that the christian and the agnostic are contradictory.

Also, since anyone can claim Christianity, while still maintaining a relative distance from the religion and various doctrines of the bible, it is fairly self-evident that the last Christian died on the cross.

reply to post by LesMisanthrope


That is a very deep thought.

The last Christian...because no one nowadays truly understands the messages of the Bible, myself included. And I believe that the Bible has been corrupted for the purpose of control.

The Bible was intended to create a knife-edge on which our species walks, because it would be so easy for us to wipe out our own species. Unfortunatel, for whatever reason, someone realized the ruling potential in the Bible and utilized it as a controlling tool.

And that's where we went astray. Honestly, if we are to discover any sort of truth, we must go back much, much further than the Bible. The only reason we rely on the Bible today is because it offers pure hope instead of reason.

And when given the choice, we will always choose hope. Reason does not help us sleep at night, nor will it assuage our conscience.

I wholeheartedly agree with your post. S&F for you.

I was always a strict agnostic, but had a pretty crazy experience last year and His presence touched my life and that of my atheist friend. Now I definitely believe, and my friend does as well. Kinda funny thing about his story is now his family wants to send him to therapy pretty much because his mother called one day and asked what he was doing, to which he responded: "I'm driving to Church"

I hope for your sake that this thread manages to stay civilized, but it seems whenever Religion is brought up on this website there are always people who just want to attack you for your beliefs...

I call myself a Christian Agnostic, and see no contradiction in the phraseology.

I call myself Christian because that was how I was raised. The core values of Christianity, its main tenets, will always be a part of my philosophical makeup. I can't separate the Christian influence in my life any more than I could separate my race or ethnicity.

On the other hand, I call myself agnostic because I just don't know. After getting a degree in theology, I realized a lot of it just didn't make sense. I have all these questions, and no answers.

Someone else mentioned that protestants were a minority in the Christian faith. That isn't true. You have Catholics, and then the Protestants who split with Luther. There are many denominations that fall under Protestantism: Lutheran, Methodist, Baptist, etc.

Originally posted by Starchild23
reply to post by LesMisanthrope

 

That is a very deep thought.

The last Christian...because no one nowadays truly understands the messages of the Bible, myself included. And I believe that the Bible has been corrupted for the purpose of control.

The Bible was intended to create a knife-edge on which our species walks, because it would be so easy for us to wipe out our own species. Unfortunatel, for whatever reason, someone realized the ruling potential in the Bible and utilized it as a controlling tool.

And that's where we went astray. Honestly, if we are to discover any sort of truth, we must go back much, much further than the Bible. The only reason we rely on the Bible today is because it offers pure hope instead of reason.

And when given the choice, we will always choose hope. Reason does not help us sleep at night, nor will it assuage our conscience.

I wish I could take credit for that thought, but I was paraphrasing the great Nietzsche.

Yes, I agree. If anything, the bible has clouded much, but I can't really blame it. It was recited to masses of illiterate people throughout history and taken as truth. People these days, most who are literate, for some reason fail to see past the fact that the bible—as valuable as it is historically—is still just a book!

It doesn't even offer hope anymore, it collects dust. It's good at taking up space on the shelf. And as more and more generations of literate people continue to read the it, the bible will eventually become more and more scrutinized. After reading it, the critical mind calls it what it is: a very old interpretation of the universe, nature and morality. Once that point is realized, the bible doesn't even require further interpretation and can be discarded as mythology and antiquated dogma.

reply to post by smyleegrl


That's a contradiction of terms. Please allow me to explain.

Christianity is based on three things: Jesus was the son of god, jesus dies for our sins, jesus rose three days later. They believe, and therefore they know. That's exactly how it works.

You say you don't know, and therefore you don't believe. It takes more than being raised a Christian to be a Christian. You either have to "know" that Jesus did all of those things, or you admit that you don't know and you become agnostic. It's not the same thing.

It's similar to me calling myself a "vegan carnivore" because I eat meat a lot, but I also enjoy vegetables. Vegan is purely exclusive, not allowing for the inclusion of meat ingestion.

Christianity does not allow for any "I don't know"s in its faith, because that would undermine the premise: that you BELIEVE, and therefore you KNOW. This is a constant with all of the Christians I have conversed with.

reply to post by Starchild23


That was a very sound explanation, and I agree with what you said.

However, I also consider Christian to be a cultural term. That's just my opinion, I know. But when I identify myself as a Christian Agnostic, I do so with the understanding of Christianity as a cultural heritage.

Youre right, its semantics.

reply to post by LesMisanthrope


And when that happens, what will happen to moral? What will we do to figure out right and wrong? How will we stay civilized? Will god cease to exist in our minds? Will we become programmed machinery designed to make money for the current reigning governmental system?

Or will we find another way to preserve ourselves for whatever destiny?

What happens without religion? Religion is our primary source of morals...everything with moral was created by consulting scripture. Without it, where do we go?

That's the huge question here.

reply to post by smyleegrl


That's your path to follow, if you desire. If it doesn't hurt anyone, who am I to disagree?

I hope you find your answers, either way.

When I told my mother that I thought I was agnostic, she looked at me and said "So? Who isn't? Everyone wants proof honey, but that makes a mockery of faith and should God indeed exist, makes a mockery of Him also."

I am a believer in Jesus and his teaching the rest is up for debate and speculation...

But to me science and my spiritual belief are not at odds and I see the bible as parable and metaphor.

Originally posted by CirqueDeTruth
When I told my mother that I thought I was agnostic, she looked at me and said "So? Who isn't? Everyone wants proof honey, but that makes a mockery of faith and should God indeed exist, makes a mockery of Him also."

edit on 27-4-2012 by CirqueDeTruth because: spellling

edit on 27-4-2012 by CirqueDeTruth because: finished sentence.

What a beautiful saying.

2nd

reply to post by FlyInTheOintment


"Christian Agnostic" is a bit of an oxymoron isn't it? As Christians we believe in Jesus Christ as the one true God, and only way to heaven.

Most Christians will say that they believe in the literal truth of the entire Bible.

Maybe because Jesus also believed in the literal stories in the bible, such as Adam and Eve and Jonah being swallowed by a whale, Noah flood etc... Jesus also believed in a young earth so it kinda contradicts the evolution theory. In Genesis we find God created human fully formed out of the dirt of the ground.

All I can suggest is that you study your Bible daily and not let other people influence you.

If you have repented and put your faith and trust in Jesus as your lord and Savior. Then you are a Christian.

Originally posted by abeverage
I am a believer in Jesus and his teaching the rest is up for debate and speculation...

But to me science and my spiritual belief are not at odds and I see the bible as parable and metaphor.

Some parts in the bible are metaphors and Jesus did speak in parables, but that does not mean that the bible is not a book with literal absolute truths in it. Only those who are born again and have put there faith and trust in Jesus as there Lord and savior will go to heaven. Believing that he existed is not enough.

reply to post by Starchild23


Religion: a mirage

Jesus: reality

reply to post by Starchild23
Ho, Starchild. I think the confusion we're running into in this thread is that we're dealing with separate definitions of agnosticism.

As I'm understanding the OP, and applying the term to myself here despite my faith in the bible, we're properly working with the less-commonly-used definitions:

2. a person who denies or doubts the possibility of ultimate knowledge in some area of study.

3. a person who holds neither of two opposing positions on a topic: Socrates was an agnostic on the subject of immortality.

Not agnostic as to the existence of god, but agnostic as to some of the matters and views of the faith itself. Granted, it might not be the best term to use for what we're trying to get across, but basically we're signifying a break from the orthodoxy and admitting we're doubtful about - presently - understanding the fullness of some of these points.

Be well.