Good without God?

Any reason why ppl should believe it takes a God to be good?

Open for reasonable discussions...

Nope, no reason. Some people like to argue that God gave us values to live by and that we would be unable to live in a society without them. That's just an absurd rationale, though, as many of the values that make people decent are common sense (don't hurt others, don't kill people, don't drive drunk, etc). To think that some kind of God needs to tell people this is silly.

Besides,there are kind, moral, sensible atheists, just as there are rotten, conniving God-fearers.

It forces morons who will believe everything a man written book says on behalf of god, to be scared of judgement and hell should they fail to be good.

Without fear of gods wrath a man is not bound by religious incentive and therefore capable of terrible crimes wiht no remorse.

When in fact an educated individual with no specific religion or none at all can behave perfectly well knowing that for the good of the population and a good life, do good things and good things happen.

Its not rocket surgery.

Any reason why anyone should reply to such a simple and overused metaphor?

Any reason? Any at all?

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Originally posted by ConspiracyFearist22
Any reason why ppl should believe it takes a God to be good?

Open for reasonable discussions...

Its written in the hearts of all man kind...

One only has to listen...

Who do you think "wrote" it there?

Good vs. Evil........that is all there is. As a poster mentioned above, God is stamped on our hearts. Everything good comes from God and God can create good from evil. I have always found it funny to realize that "evil" backwards is "live" and "devil" backwards is "lived".........and yes, I know what "God" is backwards, but I honestly believe all good is from God.

Christian believe says that acts alone do not get one into heaven. Only by the grace of God will one enter the Kingdom.

So, no, you don't need God to be a good person. But, again according to Christian beliefs, you can be the best person on Earth, but without a belief in God or Jesus as his son, you won't get the "final reward".

/TOA

I believe "be good for goodness sake." You hear stories all the time of people putting their lives in danger to save the life of a perfect stranger. They don't think they just act. Babies cry in sympathy when another baby is crying.

To think that these actions are motivated by a deeper power just doesn't make sense. If the power of a god can make people do good things without their knowledge why are so many doing bad things?

reply to post by redbarron626


New to this community. I like to learn. Open for debate. Simple!

Originally posted by Akragon

Originally posted by ConspiracyFearist22
Any reason why ppl should believe it takes a God to be good?

Open for reasonable discussions...

Its written in the hearts of all man kind...

One only has to listen...

Who do you think "wrote" it there?

So you believe it is inherent? Interesting. Any views on the possibility of biological origins of what is said to be morals?

Originally posted by Texasbud
Good vs. Evil........that is all there is. As a poster mentioned above, God is stamped on our hearts. Everything good comes from God and God can create good from evil. I have always found it funny to realize that "evil" backwards is "live" and "devil" backwards is "lived".........and yes, I know what "God" is backwards, but I honestly believe all good is from God.

This is an interesting stance. So what about evil? If all good follows from what is said to be God, what about evil? It may be inherently stamped into us by now. We are the products of the most advanced evolution. But why do we attribute morals and good deeds to a celestial author? Any views?

Originally posted by Ladysophiaofsandoz
I believe "be good for goodness sake." You hear stories all the time of people putting their lives in danger to save the life of a perfect stranger. They don't think they just act. Babies cry in sympathy when another baby is crying.

To think that these actions are motivated by a deeper power just doesn't make sense. If the power of a god can make people do good things without their knowledge why are so many doing bad things?

You make some very good and interesting points! I too wonder about a babies sense to cry. Other things too, like they're ability to recognize faces and know how to smile. All without a real teaçhing of what it actually means t9 smile or cry.

So I guess, for someone to grow up never to know of what God supposedly is, howis it they can still know right, wrong, good, bad¿

Originally posted by ConspiracyFearist22
Any reason why ppl should believe it takes a God to be good?

Open for reasonable discussions...

None that I can see. "Good" or "Bad" are relative terms though and it can be quite subjective as to the meanings. If by "it takes God" you mean a belief in God. Many people that are "bad" believe in God and many that are "good" don't. Vice Versa I am sure as well.

Personally I have meet quite a few true "believers" that I would consider bad. Like I said though, it is all subjective, I am sure that they would consider themselves quite "Good".

Originally posted by ConspiracyFearist22
Any reason why ppl should believe it takes a God to be good?

Open for reasonable discussions...

Does it take a thermometer to be hot?

The thermometer is a measure of degree. Degree is hot and cold, yet one thing under the hood of reality. God is the measure of things divided by Him, yet He is the Infinity of all things. We are the things measured as finite creatures. It's the difference between unity and multiplicity. For God to divide, our Father was required to keep the copy from being a duplicate. A copy of infinity is still infinity. For the copy to be, it had to be less than something else. God is all of us, yet we are many divided. As we rise, we return to unity from multiplicity. This is an activity that must be temporal, with a beginning and end. God is both.

For God to be observed, multiplicity is a requirement. Good is giving. God gives. He divides the light from the darkness continually.

Originally posted by EnochWasRight

Originally posted by ConspiracyFearist22
Any reason why ppl should believe it takes a God to be good?

Open for reasonable discussions...

Does it take a thermometer to be hot?

The thermometer is a measure of degree. Degree is hot and cold, yet one thing under the hood of reality. God is the measure of things divided by Him, yet He is the Infinity of all things. We are the things measured as finite creatures. It's the difference between unity and multiplicity. For God to divide, our Father was required to keep the copy from being a duplicate. A copy of infinity is still infinity. For the copy to be, it had to be less than something else. God is all of us, yet we are many divided. As we rise, we return to unity from multiplicity. This is an activity that must be temporal, with a beginning and end. God is both.

Brother, I respect your position. But maybe I'm a little dense, but I don't see how your text clearly defines whether it takes God to be good or not. Should it take a text as eloquently written as yours, to make a case for gods existence and whether or not we can be good with or without God?

For God to be observed, multiplicity is a requirement. Good is giving. God gives. He divides the light from the darkness continually.

edit on 16-4-2012 by EnochWasRight because: (no reason given)

Sorry about that. My text got mashed in with yours Enoch... that's weird...

In the end times, a characteristic of people is that they will call "good evil and evil good".
It's the crux of the problem that God must show humanity. Let's take one example: Thou Shalt Not Murder. I'd venture to guess that the majority of us would agree with this commandment and instinctively abide by it. Not more than 60 years ago, the vast majority of the western nations would have labeled abortion as the wilful murder of a human baby. Today, it is championed as a woman's right to do as she pleases with her body, and the majority say "I feel that a woman has the right to choose it". Supporters bury their head in the sand that the abortionist cuts up the live baby into pieces and sucks it out. But by doing that, we are burying our head in the sand as to the reality - we are making a dinstinction in our MIND that somehow abortion is not the deliberate taking of a human life. Why? Because it allows us to continue supporting a practice, that if looked at clinically, is the cutting up of a baby into pieces - its supporting a practice that is murder. Those who support the free and legal practice have accepted within their hearts to reject "Thou Shalt Not Murder". Those now call "evil good". But most of these same people, if confronted with a mother holding a newborn baby in their arms stating "Im going to cut this baby up", would rush to get the infant away from the mother - to save it. Hypocrisy is what Jesus continually confronted with the Pharisees. It is the same here with abortion: if you believe in His commandment "Thou Shalt Not Murder", you cannot call abortion anything but evil. The beast works through the MIND by changing beliefs. A mark on your forehead is your thought/belief.

In the beginning, God gave two choices: good and life, and evil and death. Even after Cain's offering was rejected by God, He still told Cain that he could be accepted if he chose to do "right". Cain promptly chose to kill Abel. Back to your question OP, can there be good without God? In my example above, the answer is "no". Abortion wasn't legal in this country when the value of life was held by the majority. Once a baby could be redefined as a mass of cells, our belief changed from 'murder' to a 'medical procedure'. Then entered death because we allowed "evil" to be redefined as "good". Without God, societies definition of "good" can be changed by the "powers that be" - the beast. I always thought of myself as a "good person" as compared with society... then God turned my MIND towards Him, and I suddenly saw the hypocrisy of that view that allowed me to view abortion as something other than murder. What He provides in scripture is the constant revelation that He has given everyone the choice between good and life, and evil and death, and He uses His portion Israel to demonstrate the consequences of disobedience to the moral laws given to them. The ten commandments were written into the hearts of His Faithful and into the hearts of their descendants....the very same descendants that are systematically being destroyed by the changing of their beliefs.

Every single one of the ten commandments are obliterated on daily television, the Internet and films to change our beliefs - to lead us slowly into hypocrisy that we don't even recognise as hypocrisy. As Jesus said ""Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You travel over land and sea to win a single convert, and when he becomes one, you make him twice as much a son of hell as you are." When God opens the eyes of someone to His reality, it is painful and the start of a long journey as He tears away the beast's beliefs - as in my example of abortion. When anyone is confronted with the truth, no matter the subject, there are two choices presented; 1) admit the former hypocrisy and false belief and accept the truth despite how painful, or 2) carry on in the hypocrisy or false beliefs because they are familiar, comfortable or enjoyable. The Holy Spirit states that most will perish because they willingly accepted lies, so much so that it destroyed the love of truth within their hearts and minds. If you love truth, you will seek God because "God is truth".

Please take this response as not an argument for/against abortion, it's not my intent. My intent is to demonstrate that "good", without God, is defined by society and is always subject to change. It clearly is not God's definition, and as we watch the western nations succumb because we have unknowingly allowed others to redefine the definition of "good" for us - and they accomplished it by removing God from our Mind. This is equally true of those who profess to be Christian - hypocrisy is rampant because a "different" gospel is preached. It's not about abortion - it never is - but rather about how humanity needs God in their lives because without an unmoveable standard we will succumb to the temptations of the heart and mind. God is the same today as yesterday. Nothing has changed except us.

Originally posted by Akragon

Its written in the hearts of all man kind...

One only has to listen...

Who do you think "wrote" it there?

I completely agree.

Empathy, Morality, and social conducts are hard coded in our DNA.

These things developed as part of our evolution. It was deeply advantageous for us to learn to take care of one another, humanity would have never survived this far without that.

I'd recommend Google searching:
The evolution of Social Dynamics
The evolution of Morality
The evolution of Empathy

For some independent research on the topic. I don't have the time this morning to post any great links on it. But anyone who's interested in why it's encoded in our hearts can read up on it themselves.

Here's the wikipedia page to get started.

~
We just have to listen to what's been put in us. No reason to assume we need Gods for in, in fact, we can see that we don't.

reply to post by WhoKnows100

In the end times, a characteristic of people is that they will call "good evil and evil good".
It's the crux of the problem that God must show humanity. Let's take one example: Thou Shalt Not Murder. I'd venture to guess that the majority of us would agree with this commandment and instinctively abide by it. Not more than 60 years ago, the vast majority of the western nations would have labeled abortion as the wilful murder of a human baby. Today, it is championed as a woman's right to do as she pleases with her body, and the majority say "I feel that a woman has the right to choose it". Supporters bury their head in the sand that the abortionist cuts up the live baby into pieces and sucks it out.

Right. The hypocrites were another group that Jesus condemned. Consider the advocacy for the choice of killing a baby, but not allowing the same choice in health providers for all citizens. The hypocrisy of ObamaNationCare is the very point. On one side, the scream choice. On the other side, they take choice away. The same is true for freedom and liberty and speech. It's only advocated if it meets their twisted agenda of denying truth. I say, "Deny Ignorance." They are seen for the lies they tell. Know them by their fruit.

reply to post by WhoKnows100

Every single one of the ten commandments are obliterated on daily television, the Internet and films to change our beliefs - to lead us slowly into hypocrisy that we don't even recognise as hypocrisy. As Jesus said ""Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You travel over land and sea to win a single convert, and when he becomes one, you make him twice as much a son of hell as you are."

It amazes me how Jesus spoke to us from 2000 years in the past on these issues. He didn't leave a single detail unspoken. The truth sets us free, but only if we willingly embrace it. Light is separated from darkness by God's spirit. Not by strength and not by might. What law can touch this? They busy themselves trying to shut us up. In the end, there's no law that can touch truth. It stands as blameless.