What can Occupy do about police violence?

My answer would be to stop occupying things. The whole point of the movement and like movements is solely TO provoke violence and justify authoritarian response when things get hairy.
It is all in the playbook.
Occupy your own brain and use intelligent means to create change as an individual instead of parroting talking points and levelling down to useful idiot controlling mobthink.

Originally posted by Recollector
There is ONLY one way :

CRITICAL MASS.

Police will NOT stop 1,000,000 people march or protest.

So, OWS need NUMBERS.And to get numbers, OWS needs a message.Protesting against the 1% it is NOT a strong message.A strong message will be : "Change the system.We need a new world.Death to capitalism and corporatism".

OWS cannot grow stronger without a strong message.

Critical mass is correct. For now, the movement just needs to maintain and go with a long term education strategy, exposing the fallacies and dichotomies. The slogan is not so much the issue as the comprehension of what the system does...allowing loopholes for those with the money and in the know, polarizing moralities and a whole slew of societal constructs that act to implicitly favor those at the top.

But for some, being in the middle is just fine...

Originally posted by petrus4

This is one of the things that I really don't understand about some conservatives on here. A lot of the rest of you, on the other hand, seem to have an overwhelming emotional need to single-mindedly view Occupy as domestic terrorists.

I have had to read through all of your posts to find something to disagree with you about because I hate agreeing with you. For the most part, I agree here. So, I will give you the view of a genuine conservative.

We do not consider OWS domestic terrorists. We consider them to be children out of control. They show no respect towards themselves or others. We are not a country of anarchy. We are a country of laws. I will give you the belief that some laws need to be broken to effect change. That was Gandhi’s view. Violent protests will get a police response. No cop that I ever knew wanted to be outnumbered at a 10-20-30 to one ratio facing a mob. I was one of two against 200. I almost got very ugly and we were fighting for our lives. Most of us never went to work hoping to get into a violent situation but we knew most of the time violence was on the razor’s edge of every call we went on. When we knew we were going to face violence, adrenaline takes over because it is a survival instinct. We do not play fair in life and death situations. We played to win. OWS should understand that.

If occupy wants conservative support, they must disown the fringe. They must have a common cause and not the dozens of individual desires expressed. A shotgun approach at everything will never work. The Tea Party gathering in Washington was a peaceful protest. As it ended, the area was cleared of trash by the members themselves. Did you see the trash in the streets at OWS? It was embarrassing. The Tea Party had a common cause and was peaceful. The OWS was violent and dirty. They must remain clean and non-violent.

Who do you think TPTB were more afraid of? Not OWS because they had the police between them and the protestors. TPTB were more afraid of the peaceful protests. That is why the MSM ridicules the Tea Party, they cannot be controlled and manipulated like OWS. They are afraid of a powerful force that obeyed the laws in protest and a common understanding. Look at what happened in 2010. That was a result to the Tea Party. It may happen again in November. That scares the liberals to death. Since they can’t find anything else to fight them with, they call them tea baggers, racists, and bigots.

You can get the conservatives. You think we are not pi$$ed at this situation? We do not like it any better than you do. I pay the same price for a gallon of gas that you do. I pay more taxes than ½ of Americans. A gallon of milk costs me $4 the same as it does you.

If you want to get us, you have to pick the right target. Congress is the right target. Wall Street is nothing. They are working the laws to get rich. The laws have to be changed. They are 100 stories up in their hi-rise away from the smell. Bring it closer to home. You need to be in D.C. Keep it peaceful and that will keep them afraid. Let them know you are watching, not from a jail cell but from a voting booth.

Hope I have helped.

reply to post by Nite_wing


You bring up a lot of important points. I think it is definitely true that we need to acknowledge that the police are not always barbaric psychopaths with a desire to engage in violence.

At the same time, however, Occupy are not always violent. There have been genuine lies concocted about Zucotti Park in particular; lies which, as I have said, unfortunately many conservatives seem to be extremely eager to believe.

I also agree with you, as I stated in my OP, that the fringe elements need to be dissociated from Occupy; but unfortunately, I can't see that happening. I suspect that if the idea of getting rid of such groups as Greenpeace and Code Pink were brought up, there would be an extremely adamant response about keeping them.

I very much agree with you that for the most part, Occupy are engaging the wrong targets. Getting into street fights with the police, is not the way to bring about real change. I do advocate and commend their work in helping people fight housing foreclosures, as one example; but I am also inclined to believe that that is where the majority of their effort needs to be focused.

I do not, however, agree with you about working within the system. The legislative branch in particular, has repeatedly proven that it is completely and irredeemably corrupt at this point. The other thing to understand is, that democracy in general terms does not work without a strong public desire for participation. Even if said desire existed among the public at this point, the Jeffersonian model is elitist and does not fully allow for such.

As painful as it might be for you to admit, Occupy's general assemblies are one area where conservatives genuinely can learn from them. That is real democracy, which the Greeks would have been able to recognise. The American Congress is not.

What can Occupy do about police violence?

This is very simple and there is no other option...

WHEN THE POLICE TELL YOU TO MOVE OR GIVE YOU AN ORDER, FOLLOW IT

It's common sense...

Originally posted by Magnum007

What can Occupy do about police violence?

This is very simple and there is no other option...

WHEN THE POLICE TELL YOU TO MOVE OR GIVE YOU AN ORDER, FOLLOW IT

It's common sense...

Yes, but what happens if you co-operate, and they then decide to bash you anyway?

reply to post by petrus4


doesn't happen... when they tell you to move and you move before they have to move in, nothing happens...

it's plain logic

reply to post by petrus4

Occupy's general assemblies are one area where conservatives genuinely can learn from them. That is real democracy, which the Greeks would have been able to recognise. The American Congress is not

since when did america become a democracy?
its a republic......moving on......

Originally posted by truthseeker808
reply to post by petrus4

 

since when did america become a democracy?
its a republic......moving on......

Exactly my point.

in simple terms nothing - the police have an agenda that they will stick to, it still amazes me that last year during the riots across the uk the police did nothing! yet when it comes to G8 protest the police couldn't have been more forceful! the same goes for occupy, the police have to do something about it because their masters are the bankers and occupy wants the criminal bankers out of there! i suppose they just need to film everything and when the cops cross the line they will then have evidence like the guy who was tasered in washinton for no reason (he had done nothing wrong he did not resist arrest and the police already had a hold of him when they tasered him, also he was not read his rights or told what he was being arrested for!) thats not police work, that is the work of henchmen!

Originally posted by Magnum007
reply to post by petrus4

 

doesn't happen... when they tell you to move and you move before they have to move in, nothing happens...

it's plain logic

So as long as a person always complies with everything that a police officer tells them to do, they will never be subjected to violence?

I think the other problem here, is the apparent presumption that paternalistic authority is a positive thing.

Originally posted by petrus4
I've been reading over the last few hours, about how apparently Occupy are planning on making a comeback this spring. The problem is, I can see them trying to do that, but then simply receiving another severe beating from the police, and the whole thing fading away as a result.

The thing is there will come a saturation point, when there are so many unemployed, so many homeless, and so little being done by those in power to change the system, that the massive crowd becomes too big for the cops to beat down.

This was almost happening last year, when the unions joined the protests.

People now know about Occupy, without the support of the MSM. Even though they tried to dumb it down, they failed. And they exposed themselves as being corrupt and biased to the core too.

I saw a thread a few days ago suggesting that all the major networks had seen a collapse in viewing figures, and I truly believe that their failure to be honest and objective about Occupy had a hand in that. People found out about it all through the internet, and the MSM were exposed as being liars, corrupt, propaganda merchants... people no longer trust any of the major news outlets.

Occupy will be back this year, some of them haven't gone anywhere. Just because the MSM isn't reporting it doesn't mean people all went home.

They will be back, bigger than ever, with more issues to raise and more people supporting them.

Something that really interested me was the fact that people were suggesting OccupyOWS was being financed by some special interest group, or the Democrats... I guess they didn't read up on the fact that people all around the world were donating to them, and that PayPal shut down their first account with thousands of $'s in it? And I guess no one was tuning in live every day like I was to see them opening all the supplies people were sending them from all over the USA?

Despite what some on here would have you believe, Occupy had massive support all across the world, with donations every day of both money and goods to keep them going. Businesses in the area were supporting them, locals were getting involved, people were very much mobilized and supporting the Occupation.

Incidentally, there are already plans in place. There are moves to have a global general strike on the 1st May, and groups are springing up to plan the worlds biggest protest against corruption and government on November 5th.

Occupy is far from over, and the police will certainly not be able to deal with the growing protests this year. This is why our governments are all seeking methods to monitor, infiltrate, arrest and detain like never before. It has nothing to do with terrorism or crime and everything to do with preventing a revolution.

The parties and their corporate backers cannot risk allowing truly democratic parties to rise and take their place. They've spent centuries building these special interest clubs between the wealthy and our governments - regardless of the party in power - and they will not let their influence go easily.

It's going to be a fascinating year, especially when Greece defaults and Spain comes clean about needing a bailout that no one can afford to give them

Originally posted by petrus4

I do not, however, agree with you about working within the system. The legislative branch in particular, has repeatedly proven that it is completely and irredeemably corrupt at this point. The other thing to understand is, that democracy in general terms does not work without a strong public desire for participation. Even if said desire existed among the public at this point, the Jeffersonian model is elitist and does not fully allow for such.

As painful as it might be for you to admit, Occupy's general assemblies are one area where conservatives genuinely can learn from them. That is real democracy, which the Greeks would have been able to recognise. The American Congress is not.


As painful as it might be for you to admit, Occupy's general assemblies are one area where conservatives genuinely can learn from them. That is real democracy, which the Greeks would have been able to recognise. The American Congress is not.

edit on 12-4-2012 by petrus4 because: (no reason given)

Perhaps I wasn't clear. I am not advocating working ONLY within the system. It is one tool to use. Passive resistance by general assembly is a way to protest. Violence will beget violence. The police expect it when they go whether it happens or not. They are emotionally and physically prepared for it to happen. Even if the police infiltrated the Occupiers (and I am sure they will/do) if one of the undercover starts violence against the others occupy should immediately throw them out of the occupy protest. That is called self-policing.

You are absolutely correct about democracy not working without public participation. (Dammit I had to agree again.) However, most of us have no idea where to start except by becoming knowledgeable and voting. We do not want to be associated with groups that shame us by the actions of OWS. Americans are by nature peaceful. We do not like conflict within our neighborhoods. (That is why the occupy should occupy D.C.-that is the home territory of Congress) Sometimes there is nothing we can do about it but we don't like it. Don't count us all as liking the wars we are in. I am not sure about Korea. Vietnam was wrong. I am not sure about Iraq. Afghanistan is wrong. I am not sure about Iran. WWI, I don't know. WWII was necessary.

If you want to fight foreclosures, you have to use the system. Illegal foreclosures are illegal. Plain and simple. People who bought homes hoping to be able to pay for them, were wrong. The banks were wrong in lending the money for them. The people were sucked in by the Frank-Dodd bill. The banks knew Fannie Mae would cover their losses so they played the system for all it was worth and then some. That, IMO is where the world economic collapse began. I said it when the bill was passed and I am still saying it now. Yelling at the banks does not help. Yelling at the DOJ to stop illegal roboform foreclosures will help.

Let me try to use an example (from an old farm boy). You don't shoot at the tree to kill the squirrel. You shoot at the squirrel. The focus of occupy has to be narrowed and defined with a certain target in mind. "Aim small. Miss small."

If occupy could prove to me they could remain peaceful by policing themselves, keep it clean and non-violent, they might be surprised to see real "old" conservatives there instead of old hippies. But keep this in mind, I am not going to sleep in the street. I have a bed, it's paid for, and it's warm. So if I leave and say, I will see you tomorrow, it means I am going to get rest, take a shower, have a bite to eat, and I WILL see you tomorrow.

reply to post by petrus4


What can Occupy do about police violence? Stop doing things to cause it. Stop baiting the Police so they can make video's for YouTube out of context. Stop pretending that illegally occupying private property, or camping out illegally on public property denying everyone else the right to use it is protest.

The Tea Party did it right and look at the outcome. They did it right and had no problems at all and did not even leave any mess behind. Occupy could have done the same and would have done the same had they been for real. They could have had a real voice instead of being a front for Unions and radical Progressive groups.

Does not matter now they have let themselves be taken over and funded by Unions and members of the 1% they claim to hate. Occupy is now owned and on loan as part of the Obama campaign. Nobody is being fooled. The organizers trace directly back to the White House now. Whatever they started out as does not exist anymore.

Occupy lost almost all public support for a reason. We the People are not that stupid.

There is little they can do about police violence. The police plant instigators within protests with the sole purpose of turning them "violent" in the public eye.

The best, and perhaps only, way to counter this is to citizen's arrest the instigators of violence, turn them over to the police, and then self-disperse the protest. Reconvene at a different place perhaps at a different time, and repeat the process. Soon enough there will be little violence because any instigation will be met with lawful and peaceful retaliation by the protesters.

Honestly, not only do the cops behave violently towards protesters from city to city they ignore criminals among the crowd even when reported. Great interview here, worth the few minutes (article and video).

rawstory.com

Of course this info was given on ATS back in November but the detractors have no interest in facts, I guess it's just more fun to degrade. Every American should be pissed at the behavior of the police.

reply to post by petrus4


Well i agree with you some what believe it or not a majority of the country leans towards the right.However there biggest problem is go to one of there locations ask 10 people why they came there and you get 10 different answers.They way overstretched there goals trying to include everyone.Then the message of wall street being bad alot of people have money invested in wall street and even Obama learned quickly not to go after wall street.Hes making a mistake trying to go after the rich now.Truth is most Americans want to become rich and therefore dont have the animosity.Now they will agree the system isnt working as long as you word it right. But heres the funny part about obama reality will eventually catch up to him.

Heres what i mean you know how they say warren buffet only paid 15 percent of his income in taxes.Technically not true either since he already paid taxes on the money before investing but that aside for the minute. What persent of income do the middle class pay in taxes? A family of four in the exact middle of the income spectrum will pay only 5.6 percent of its 2011 income in federal income taxes.This means Warren buffet paid 3 times the taxes on a much larger amount. This is going to come out too people dont realize the bush tax cuts helped the middle class as well. When they expire your taxes will go up.

Federal income taxes on middle-income families have declined significantly in recent decades. In 2000, the year before the 2001 tax cut enacted by President Bush and Congress, the median-income family of four paid 8.0 percent of its income in individual income taxes, according to Tax Policy Center.The 2001 act and the 2003 act significantly lowered the marginal tax rates for nearly all U.S. taxpayers.Once the republicans make this clear or if they make it clear and its no longer the other guy paying more taxes youll find this class warfare thing to become very unpopular.

I can honestly say I know almost nothing about the occupy movement, but if their goal is peaceful protesting, there is one sure fire way to do it.

At the beginning of the protest, anyone who is participating should tie their hands behind their backs. Anyone who refuses should be told to get out. This is to make a public show of being non-threatening and peaceful. Next, once they get to the site they are protesting, sit on the ground and don't get up for anything. You can't be seen as threatening if you are sitting on the ground. This also gives the advantage of easily being able to account for all protesters and their safety as well as minimizing chaos. Forget signs and the like and stick to some focused chanting of your message. The annoyance factor of the protests is still there, but there is no chaos and no reason for the police to get violent. Through all this, everything should be recorded from multiple cameras and mulitple sources. Some should possibly be recorded from outside the public eye in case anything happens.

The one danger here is that police and the like will get violent anyway and people could not defend themselves, but in the long run, if you are completely defenseless, you are undeniably in the right and it could only help the cause as well as hurt the police in the long run. This situation is also why I suggest everything be filmed and publicly documented.

The important thing here is to give the police and TPTB absolutely nothing to use against you so that you are undeniably in the right and harming you would hurt their own cause.