To all of those people creating threads in the Philosophy forum, asserting so-called "truth"...

Originally posted by arpgme
How do you know that it is truth at all? How do you know that you know what you know?

How do you know that God(s) or a universal mind exist?

How do you know that there is a dominant force of love?


All of these new age spiritual universal "Truths', or that even think "Jesus is truth" how do you know that these things are true?

In other words, this thread is about Pyrrhonism. How do you know that anything that you know is actually true? Do you actually question your beliefs or do you have them just because it feel good or you had and unexplainable situation so you came up with your own explaination even though there is not evidence or proof?

edit on 8-4-2012 by arpgme because: (no reason given)

Had a long thought pattern leeding (where my mind saw things and made connections with unnatural ease) up to All is one and after that moment had a supernatural answer response from what you can belive is the other side. After that a opened crown chakra and third eye and something flowing thru me that makes me harmonious. I have gotten my own answers of what is going on thru synchronicity that I also see all the time (the mutliple of 11 kind). It is kinda hard not to call the other side loving when it feels like they are carresing the top of my head.

My mind can still question everything and is in fact even more questioning after my awakeening than it was before. It seems god or whatever we call it do not want me to be a person that accepts things directly but wants me to make sure god is as good (symbiotic) as I want him/her to be. Since I belive god can take away my free will if he/she/it wanted it, it tells a lot that I still have the right to stand up for what I belive in. I think god is a teacher that is more interested that the student learn the lesson (following devine symbiotic ideals) than listening to gods commands. He wants me to be selfsufficiant strongminded and loving. He gave me a brain to understand philosophy and find my way home with logic and a sense of right and wrong.

Originally posted by ArrowsNV

Originally posted by arpgme
Do you actually question your beliefs or do you have them just because it feel good or you had and unexplainable situation so you came up with your own explaination even though there is not evidence or proof?

edit on 8-4-2012 by arpgme because: (no reason given)

Have you had one of these 'unexplainable' situations?

I have, my best friend was there with me. And it took us from being agnostic (myself) and complete atheist (my buddy) to having a view that there IS something out there. God, Allah, Buddah, whatever you want to call it.

I would describe the event but I've already been bitched at by the Mods last time I posted it. :/

Although I do have a Pyrrhonian view on life most of the time, I do believe that there is something that most refer to as 'God' out there.

How about yourself?


And yes, I agree with the poster above. You don't know. You will never know, not until you die anyways.

edit on 4/8/2012 by ArrowsNV because: (no reason given)

Yes and then you will have a lot of fun laughting at the stupid smallminded things you belived to be completly correct. You gotta love ego .

reply to post by arpgme

What is all-encompassing? Even if "that" dosn't stop the subsconscious it has no bearing on whether or not what the subconscious holds is true or not, does it? Don't they say that the subconscious can't tell the difference between truths and lies, that it is the conscious brain which does that?

All-encompassing in that it touches on every aspect of nature. Your conscious is a collection of filters/ egos you've lumped into a personality along with a series of thresholds which keep you reasonably occupied during the mind's quest for comfort zones.

Extended play (subconscious):

en.wikipedia.org...

He suffered a nervous breakdown during this time. Tesla was later persuaded by his father to attend the Charles-Ferdinand University in Prague, which he attended for the summer term of 1880. Here, he was influenced by Ernst Mach. However, after his father died, he left the university, having completed only one term.

During his early life, Tesla was stricken with illness time and time again. He suffered a peculiar affliction in which blinding flashes of light would appear before his eyes, often accompanied by visions. Much of the time the visions were linked to a word or idea he might have come across, at other times they would provide the solution to a particular problem he had been encountering; just by hearing the name of an item, he would be able to envision it in realistic detail. Modern-day synesthetes report similar symptoms. Tesla would visualize an invention in his mind with extreme precision, including all dimensions, before moving to the construction stage; a technique sometimes known as picture thinking. He typically did not make drawings by hand, instead just conceiving all ideas with his mind. Tesla also often had flashbacks to events that had happened previously in his life; these began during his childhood.

en.wikipedia.org...

Tammet's unusually vivid and complex synesthesia has been widely reported. In his mind, he says, each positive integer up to 10,000 has its own unique shape, colour, texture and feel. He can intuitively "see" results of calculations as synaesthetic landscapes without using conscious mental effort and can "sense" whether a number is prime or composite. He has described his visual image of 289 as particularly ugly, 333 as particularly attractive, and pi as beautiful. The number 6 apparently has no distinct image yet what he describes as an almost small nothingness, opposite to the number 9 which he calls large and towering.[8][14] Tammet has described 25 as energetic and the "kind of number you would invite to a party".[15] Tammet not only verbally describes these visions, but has also created artwork, including a watercolour painting of pi.

On a related note...

333 as particularly attractive

3 - System, 33 - Truth

This is how I arrived at a title:

System of Truth

Something I have observed over the years while visiting spiritual forums is that we all seem to have our own truths. Mine are different from yours.
I came to these truths through a lot of thought,observations and personal experiences.

The journey to find the truth is the answer to what the truth is.

Reality, personal reality, and sense of self are all connected into what my truth,your truth and everyone's truth is.

The physical world we live in allows us to experience every aspect of "life". What we experience dictates what we "believe" Vs what we know. Generally it is what we experience for ourselves that creates the knowing.
A person can tell you it did not happen, or that is not what it was, but when you experience it, it becomes truth for you. Real truth comes from first hand personal experience from yourself. Anything else is someone's opinion on what should and should not be.

The real truth is we do not know the whole truth, we each only get little bits and pieces of a much grander puzzle than our minds can totally understand.
Or at least that is what my experience has led me to believe about truths.

Pyrrhonism, as far as I'm aware, refutes both sides of an issue? As in for each presented proposition, there is equally good evidence to disavow it. So is this actually what we're talking about here?

From a quick scan of this thread I don't really see much of this; I was perhaps looking for a bit more philosophy in the Philosophy forum I suppose. It's a pity that things like "truth" and the issues that follow on from it can't be discussed in a more objective manner.

Originally posted by arpgme

Sure, but first we must know that reality is subjective. Or this is just a delusion.

Reality, and what we value as being true exists in our mind. It is subjective.
You cannot get outside of your mind.

Sure, but it is a Value attained by evidence, actual evidence, not just belief.

Really?
What evidence do you have to show that statement is true?

Again, how do you KNOW this?

That is what I have experienced. Have you not experienced conflicting versions of the truth?
And that on examination the conflict in truth can be defined by examining the two truths in conflict having originated from two different people?
Two subjective minds.

No, I never said that the flying red man in the sky was true in REALITY only as a FANTASY IDEA in their mind. If you want to say that illusions and fantasy is truth, then you have a contradicting definition of truth, because truth is reality, not just an idea of the mind. It is something that is demonstrable of physical sense with evidence.

No, you stated that santa was TRUE in the mind of another. You placed a value on santa as being true because a subjective mind believed it.
You then added your own subjective belief that santa was untrue.

There is no evidence that a fat red man is flying in the sky every Christmas. We been to the north pole and people say that there was NO factory there...

Have you experienced the north pole?

The factory could be invisible, and so could santa claus, and in that case it COULD be TRUE in reality, but the mere fact that they just believe does NOT make it fact in reality. It is just a belief.

In whose reality?
Reality is subjective.
To the child who writes a letter to santa, leaves out cookies and milk, in that childs mind as it experiences life, santa exists in that childs reality.
Subjective.

Sure, EVERYTHING about science could ALL be false, it IS a possibility, BUT that does not AUTOMATICALLY mean that whatever people believe is true, unless of course OBJECTIVE REALITY was also false, but we don't KNOW that it isn't and the physical world is EVIDENCE that it is. With the evidence the belief is justified, but with lack of evidence for SUBJECTIVE REALITY it is not justified.

What is objective reality? Prove that it exists using the scientific method.

How do you know the physical world exists? How do you run an objective experiment that can get outside of existence in order to run an objective study?
How do you know it is not simply your mind that has created the world as you experience it?
How do you know that the evidence you require is not merely another illusion?

And I would say, I don't know because YOU have the KNOWLEDGE of the EXPERIENCE, YOU KNOW what happened in YOUR experience, so YOU would have to tell me what proof or evidence you have from YOUR EXPERIENCE, I can't tell you what happened in YOUR experience, but I what I CAN say is whether or not there is proof or evidence that what you determined from the entity in your experience was true or not.

All I have is my experiences, and these are used to define what is true and untrue for me.

You are no different, nor is anyone else.
Truth, reality and existence for each of us, is subjective. In our mind, and of our minds.

If someone sees a talking cow in their experience. I have no proof that it didn't happen. But that is not what I am asking, I am asking how do they KNOW it was a cow? How do they know it isn't a similar being unknown to man? Or a shape-shifter or any other possibility? THAT is what I am asking..

That is an infinite regression. You can ask that of any experience. That is why the truth is subjective.
Truth, it is just a value we place on things. Your line of questioning shows that in your example. Someone will say that: "it is true, I talked to a cow". And you can say:"how do you know that was true? It could have been a shape sifter".
And you could go and talk to the cow and then come back and say: "I talked to a shape shifter, it was in the form of a cow".
And now the truth has changed, based on your subjective experience.
Or, you could go and investigate and go and try and talk to the cow:" I tried to talk to the cow and it did not talk, I think the guy who said he talked to the cow is crazy!"
And now what you believe is that the man is crazy and the cow cannot talk.

But maybe the cow can talk, but it just didn't talk to you, but you now believe the truth is that the man is crazy.


Subjective.

Thanks for replying to my posts.

reply to post by arpgme


I like the way you think. I really do.

I absolutely agree with everything you stated in this post, and I second all of it.

I've been working hard for years now to validate what I'm not even sure I hope is true or not true, and the process is beginning to wind down - at least concerning what I can reasonably expect to be able to validate as a corporeal Homo Sapien human with a broadband Internet connection.

What I've focused on has been brutally uncompromising logic and extremely strict inference, extrapolation, association and the well-known tenets of consistent and dependable reality that have been established and verified - again and again - for much longer than I've been poking around for answers. That said, I've also included the most enduring "truths" within this examination, and opened them up in allegory and metaphor (which really helps you better understand them in their original interpretation) to see how well they manage when applied to the dry-eyed, faith-free existential staples that emerge when all the scientific specialization is eliminated in favor of a much more universal approach to what must be, what can't be, and what just might really exist as a result of what those two determinations have revealed (as opposed to a lot of the contradictory mess that is presented as scientific fact these days). As far as questionable science goes, let's just say that if it really matters to you, you can construct something that looks like a duck, walks like a duck, and quacks like a duck, but that isn't any more of a duck than you are. If your career depends on the existence of that "duck" then the potential for quackery in that department is even more considerable.

Religion, of course, is an obvious sinner when it comes to making things up, and FAITH is the same "heavenly armor" for saints as it is for suicide bombers. Belief in the unbelievable and unprovable, on the specific grounds that it is unbelievable and unprovable, is willful delusion. Spelling delusion F.A.I.T.H doesn't change the definition of the word. Imposing that delusion on others as a requirement for salvation (from what?, I don't know) is raw evil, at the very least. Programming tiny children to have that delusion as a core aspect of their reality view is monstrous. The hell of this planet is that even science knuckles under to authoritarianism, so it's not as if there's anywhere else for the average person to turn to for a version of reality that doesn't clash horribly with simple logic. So why not cling to whatever makes a person feel better? Then again, that mindset does open one up to tragic manipulations. In the corporeal realm and especially in the eternal realm.

They say that a new age is coming. I hope it's not as vicious and destructive as the last one has been. I'm not optimistic though. These days it seems to be all the rage to insist that whatever you choose reality to be, it will be. For you anyway. Meanwhile, it doesn't actually work - not at all - which has people doubting their own capacity to even be fully human in their supposed innate capacity to generate their own personal reality. If this continues, the coming new age will be an embarrassingly pathetic display of strident delusion, and lots of people taking advantage of it.

Originally posted by atlasastro

Reality, and what we value as being true exists in our mind. It is subjective.
You cannot get outside of your mind.

Perception is what exists within your mind. Reality is the contextual relationship that exists between everything that shares a common sub-structural commonality. This relationship includes your mind, but is not inside your mind. In fact, your mind exists within that contextual relationship and is an aspect of reality. Your brain - which brings your mind into physical existence - cannot be a product of your mind, since it literally generates the thoughts that collect to form your mind. In fact, a pretty good analogy of this is how music is created by a musical instrument (let's use a violin in this case). The violin isn't the music, and the music isn't the violin, but the music is very specific to what the violin is capable of producing, in timbre, tonal range, and available note structure. It is "violin music", essentially, and not simply music in a general sense of what music can possibly be. The human brain produces thoughts that are compatible with what that specific brain is capable of producing, in the same way as that violin is capable of producing "violin music". This is how we know that the brain is responsible for the emergence of the mind that is associated with it. We call it the Personality, and it is remarkably consistent after years of being developed (range of agility, originality of thought, predilections, and fundamental beliefs and views). The "music" of that specific brain.

Reality is not subjective - relative to the overall contextual balances that have developed within whichever specific "reality confine" one is dealing with. To change any established relative reality, the contextual balances have to be radically altered, and that takes a lot of change within the relationships between what exists and has existed within that specific confine. Its not malleable in the way that perception is, and even perception isn't 100% malleable. If it was, then cognitive dissonance would not exist. But it does exist, and this proves that even perception is somewhat resistant to pure subjectivity.

You can believe whatever you wish, but that doesn't affect what's real, and beneath every relative reality confine sits the relationship that it shares with every other reality confine, and this is what is true and dependable and permanently real. That foundation that is created by this most primordial of contextual relationships. Reality exists. Humanity is the only existential development that is capable of giving it the finger and pretending that it's above such nonsense. This is what makes humanity special.

reply to post by arpgme

If you have to adjust your beliefs, that mean that they were completely true in the first place, right? Why believe in something that you'd just have to adjust or get rid of anyway, when you find out it isn't true or that it needs to be significantly changed? How do you know that it was "God" that picked you up?

In my experience, some of my belief structures have changed as I've gotten older. Yes, you could say they no longer rang true for me as I matured and began thinking in different ways about the world around me. I would rather have beliefs that I adjust when the need arises than to believe in nothing at all. The term God to me means the creator of us all. I believe we were created and our creator is who we term God. I guess it does boil down to faith.

Originally posted by NorEaster
Perception is what exists within your mind. Reality is the contextual relationship that exists between everything that shares a common sub-structural commonality. This relationship includes your mind, but is not inside your mind. In fact, your mind exists within that contextual relationship and is an aspect of reality.

But that could only be your perception of reality.

Your brain - which brings your mind into physical existence - cannot be a product of your mind,

Prove it. Paradox anyone?

since it literally generates the thoughts that collect to form your mind.

That is what you have been told and believe.
You didn't take you brain out and watch it do all that did you!

In fact, a pretty good analogy of this is how music is created by a musical instrument (let's use a violin in this case). The violin isn't the music, and the music isn't the violin, but the music is very specific to what the violin is capable of producing, in timbre, tonal range, and available note structure. It is "violin music", essentially, and not simply music in a general sense of what music can possibly be.

But the violin is only an invention of the mind and so is the music, how do you know that it even exists. You believe it does. Does the violin play itself? What is music even? It is simply the label you have given the sound? Again, music is an invention of the mind, why is it even music? Because subject to your own mind you have differentiated that sound as music, you believe it is now music. The same applies to the brain/mind reality paradox.

The human brain produces thoughts that are compatible with what that specific brain is capable of producing, in the same way as that violin is capable of producing "violin music". This is how we know that the brain is responsible for the emergence of the mind that is associated with it. We call it the Personality, and it is remarkably consistent after years of being developed (range of agility, originality of thought, predilections, and fundamental beliefs and views).

It may be consistent in that we all have personalities, but each of those personalities will play a different tune, won't they! And what one may call true music, another will not call music at all. And so music becomes subjective to the personality and how it defines what is true music or what is real music.
But anyway. The Materialistic dogma you regurgitate is pretty 101 boring.

You have to believe the brain came first and that thought came after that etc. But can you prove that is true? Can you get outside of that to prove it. Get outside of the entire universe and observe that happening?
No you cannot.
So you have to believe in the philosophy, and the science. You have to place faith in that mode of inquiry and the tale of reality it has built for you, and that you have regurgitated to me. You have to believe that that description you have made is true, is real. Is reality. Only what you can measure!

I'm cool with that, it is up to every one individual to place those values on existence in order to define it for themselves, to find what is true for them, what is real.

Reality is not subjective - relative to the overall contextual balances that have developed within whichever specific "reality confine" one is dealing with.

So now reality is conditional in order to avoid subjectivity? Now you need special rules.
If we don't exist, will the universe?
How do you know.
You can't even be sure the overall contextual balance exists, you believe it is supported by the prescence of others around you. You need to believe I, and everyone else exists. Do we?

To change any established relative reality,

So reality is established! By who or what?. We are not talking about changing reality, but what people believe is real. What they think is true and real, that defines reality and existence for them. Which is subjective. It can never be objective ever, and you know it.
Simply because no one person can know, describe or contain the true or real nature of everything.

You can believe whatever you wish,

Thanks for that.

but that doesn't affect what's real

Yes it does. Studies show that a belief in an abstract being/s has effects on health and longevity. Who would have thought it!

, and beneath every relative reality confine sits the relationship that it shares with every other reality confine, and this is what is true and dependable and permanently real.

How do you know you are sharing anything? How do you know? You have to believe it, that it is true. Real in your mind?
No thing in this universe is permanently real, in fact according to some it didn't even exist at one stage.
So there ya go!
Interesting post. Exceptionally religious in its adherence to materialistic dogma and text book doctrine.

reply to post by arpgme


truth is a point of view. i believe in the afterlife because of an experience i had as a youth but i am to logical of a thinker to blindly believe in anyone's god

reply to post by atlasastro


Reality is inherently a loose term, so why don't we stick to spun density as part of this topic? Something your avatar glances at...

(A take on Romans 1:20) For from the World's creation the invisible attributes are perceived, being understood in the hearts and minds of the articles made, both eternal power and divinity, so as to render each and every inexcusable.

Consciousness is pervasive of course, so the broader your vision... The more elements you're able to capture/ acquire.

Music then becomes a foundation. It doesn't take an engineer to inform you the limitations of our hearing. The ultraviolet spectrum alone is a demodulator, so try to collect a few ideas on what else could possibly be missing.

Originally posted by Americanist
reply to post by atlasastro

 

Reality is inherently a loose term, so why don't we stick to spun density as part of this topic? Something your avatar glances at...

Of course it is. Everything has a spin my friend, everything. Its unfortunate that Planck couldn't figure that out and had to invent a reason to explain why atoms didn't end in catastrophe.

(A take on Romans 1:20) For from the World's creation the invisible attributes are perceived, being understood in the hearts and minds of the articles made, both eternal power and divinity, so as to render each and every inexcusable.

Its all energy, invisible yet defined, eternal and devine.

Consciousness is pervasive of course, so the broader your vision... The more elements you're able to capture/ acquire.

Hmmm. Yes, but I would also ponder that consciousness can be misleading, and elements are invented when simplification if more of the key to the tune.

Music then becomes a foundation. It doesn't take an engineer to inform you the limitations of our hearing. The ultraviolet spectrum alone is a demodulator, so try to collect a few ideas on what else could possibly be missing.

Interesting. What is missing? Nothing is missing!. It is all here. All is here. One, one just has to open up and accept it as I gather.

I love U2. Oh! And the band too.

Like many others have said you don't know or at least not in the sense that you could convey that message to someone else without them experiencing it for themselves. While whatever the truth is may remain a constant it can still be observed differently from human to human.

Originally posted by arpgme
How do you know that it is truth at all? How do you know that you know what you know?
[color=cyan] Instinct, the SAME instinct you use arpgme to seek answers and validations of truth

How do you know that God(s) or a universal mind exist?
[color=cyan] personal proof in some of the things I have experienced and overcame. It felt like there was/is a FORCE there GUIDING 1 even now. This CREATOR designed GOD-Force tells me to keep an eye out for deceptors who may wish to manipulate and has always been right when I encounter them. SO I don't know how I could talk to myself and tell myself to look out for deceptors I don't even know, BUT GOD DOES [/COLOR]
How do you know that there is a dominant force of love?
[COLOR=CYAN] The universe is proof. So many potential various CREATOR CREATED energies co-existing that are bound to find each other. Why not the CREATOR just designed single universes per species w/ no interactions with other species. Instead you got a UNIVERSE full of Creator ENERGIES and some can teach others WHY NOT KEEP THEM SEPERATE (ALONE). Why others prey on others and manipulate others into an AGENDA of control by distributing doubt and LIES or UNTRUTH. [/COLOR]


All of these new age spiritual universal "Truths', or that even think "Jesus is truth" how do you know that these things are true?
[COLOR=CYAN] What species can be upset with HUMANS and or OTHERS for worship of a HIGHER DEITY w/o acknowledging WHY humans worship? The species was taught by SOME and the species encountered SOME not of this sphere WHO may have, SOME of them acted like HIGHER BEINGS over humans CAUSING HUMANS TO DEVELOP THE MENTAL ADJUSTMENT TO WORSHIP HIGHER BEINGS (AS GODS) after the alteration of the CREATOR DESIGNED pre human ORIGINAL genetic code.

Its like DR..Frankenstein making Frankenstein and then once making Frankenstein AWARE telling Frankenstein he the doctor is Frankenstein's god -even though the DR. used existing CREATOR DESIGNED GENETIC MATERIAL to make Frankenstein -- and then ANOTHER SIMILAR DR getting mad that Frankenstein keeps calling for his ORIGINAL DR/GOD even when the DR. is not present, only for the NEW DR. to return and get upset that Frankenstein keeps calling out FOR GOD... Its not REALLY the humans fault?????????

In other words, this thread is about Pyrrhonism. How do you know that anything that you know is actually true? Do you actually question your beliefs or do you have them just because it feel good or you had and unexplainable situation so you came up with your own explaination even though there is not evidence or proof?

edit on 8-4-2012 by arpgme because: (no reason given)

[color=cyan] 1 challenges my beliefs on a regular bases BECAUSE ITS HARD TO TELL IN THIS LIL UNIVERSAL CONTAINMENT DEVICE WHO IS REAL AND WHO ARE THE IMPOSTER FAKERS OF THIS LIL UNIVERSE.. So to keep a healthy mind 1 must challenge all the data received since it has all been thru previous hands ect. [/COLOR]

sometimes when on the interwebs ATS it seems like some report data to non humans for understanding or ignorance as to better deal with the population. If that was the case 1 would think direct questions would be more respectful other then hidden questions. But its just a signal of this universes control FOR NOW.... Interesting OP arpgme:up

reply to post by atlasastro

Hmmm. Yes, but I would also ponder that consciousness can be misleading, and elements are invented when simplification if more of the key to the tune.

Misleading in the sense our minds can be manipulated being rooted in fear. The term 'elements' has wide coverage in the dictionary... Perhaps a refresher is called for. Simplification is key, so you might also let your eyes drift to my signature file.

Interesting. What is missing? Nothing is missing!. It is all here. All is here. One, one just has to open up and accept it as I gather.

I love U2. Oh! And the band too.

Missing is the myriad connections. As I alluded to earlier... Our hearing is geared 20 to 20. The better listener you are, the more signal you receive. You gathered correctly.

Well then... We'll have to catch a show some time.
That and throw up a much larger antenna as a whole!

reply to post by Americanist


"It doesn't take an engineer to inform you the limitations of our hearing. The ultraviolet spectrum alone is a demodulator, so try to collect a few ideas on what else could possibly be missing. "

where would the sounds be coming from( what would be causing the noise) ? all i can think of is really tiny event noises we cant detect, or obviously noises that are too far away from us... but im wondering where the noises we would be missing would be coming from..

Originally posted by ImaFungi
reply to post by Americanist

 

"It doesn't take an engineer to inform you the limitations of our hearing. The ultraviolet spectrum alone is a demodulator, so try to collect a few ideas on what else could possibly be missing. "

where would the sounds be coming from( what would be causing the noise) ? all i can think of is really tiny event noises we cant detect, or obviously noises that are too far away from us... but im wondering where the noises we would be missing would be coming from..

The search for home starts with electromagnetic waves:

en.wikipedia.org...

These exist as cones/ corkscrew patterns not some roller-coaster chart. Energy is drawn down into whirlpools/ cavities. Matter is structured accordingly. My intuitive nature along with that of many others continues to reference the torus as our driving force.

reply to post by Americanist


and is the torus just like a neat idea of the universe, a design for everything that happens and works to happen and work?

How do we know anything with any degree of certainty? From the pragmatic point of view, one cannot know anything with any degree of certainty.