The Importance of a balanced pH

Originally posted by Bedlam

Originally posted by pirhanna
Here's a question, as there is a lot of mixed ideas about acidic or alkaline foods and their effects on the body.

How is it that a highly acidic compound (such as apple cider vinegar for instance) could make the body more alkaline? Is there an intermediate chemical process that I'm not seeing discussed? If there is not, then this makes no logical sense to me.

But I see over and over again people claiming apple cider vinegar (which is highly acidic) makes the body more alkaline.

What gives here?

My problem with the whole thing. Well, the major one. I hear it a lot, but I only hear it esposed by websites selling detox or colon cleansers or iffy cancer cures.

That is a good question!

Digestion is a complex process... extremely complex. To answer your question, YES, there is an intermittent process, actually several hundred, taking place very rapidly as the food is being broken down by hydrochloric acid.

However, for the sake of simplicity, what happens with the acidic fruits like lemon, lime and orange, is that your body is removing the citric acid and other acidic components through a mixture of enzymes in the fruits, and the acid in your stomach. When everything is "burned", the remaining components are minerals and highly alkalized substances, such as bicarbonate. With apple cider vinegar, you are left with those minerals plus special enzymes called "the mother", which are essential building blocks for enzymes and proteins. These enzymes help "rebuild" some of the damaged cells in your digestive system, so that not only do you get relief from the food causing you heartburn or indigestion, but as time goes on, you start to become more tolerant to foods that you might not have been able to before. It also helps stimulate growth of helpful bacteria and kills bad bacteria.

Win - Win.

~Namaste

Originally posted by SonOfTheLawOfOne

Originally posted by Bedlam

Originally posted by pirhanna
Here's a question, as there is a lot of mixed ideas about acidic or alkaline foods and their effects on the body.

How is it that a highly acidic compound (such as apple cider vinegar for instance) could make the body more alkaline? Is there an intermediate chemical process that I'm not seeing discussed? If there is not, then this makes no logical sense to me.

But I see over and over again people claiming apple cider vinegar (which is highly acidic) makes the body more alkaline.

What gives here?

My problem with the whole thing. Well, the major one. I hear it a lot, but I only hear it esposed by websites selling detox or colon cleansers or iffy cancer cures.

That is a good question!

Digestion is a complex process... extremely complex. To answer your question, YES, there is an intermittent process, actually several hundred, taking place very rapidly as the food is being broken down by hydrochloric acid.

However, for the sake of simplicity, what happens with the acidic fruits like lemon, lime and orange, is that your body is removing the citric acid and other acidic components through a mixture of enzymes in the fruits, and the acid in your stomach. When everything is "burned", the remaining components are minerals and highly alkalized substances, such as bicarbonate. With apple cider vinegar, you are left with those minerals plus special enzymes called "the mother", which are essential building blocks for enzymes and proteins. These enzymes help "rebuild" some of the damaged cells in your digestive system, so that not only do you get relief from the food causing you heartburn or indigestion, but as time goes on, you start to become more tolerant to foods that you might not have been able to before. It also helps stimulate growth of helpful bacteria and kills bad bacteria.

Win - Win.

~Namaste

edit on 7-4-2012 by SonOfTheLawOfOne because: (no reason given)

Thanks for the in depth response. At first glance it seems completely backward that eating some acidic things could be the cure to reduce acidity. I see what you are saying though about the body's complex systems and their responses to particular foods.

I am probably one of the most allergic people on the planet - and tend to have heartburn issues, though not nearly as much since I've changed my diet, and removed glutens. The glutens were definitely giving me a bad response. I've found it's much easier to combat fat gain when one eats no gluten. Non-gluten grains don't seem to have the same effect.

Been working a lot of things to combat the allergies (acupuncture, chinese cupping, aloe, curcumin, Vitamin D, diet, exercise, oriental mushroom formulas, etc), and am going to try adding apple cider vinegar to the list. Will post the effects or lack thereof in a few weeks.

reply to post by SonOfTheLawOfOne


Great! That's basically the explanation on alt med sites, but nicely worded. Is there a scholarly paper, or a website that gives details that's NOT an alternative medicine website?

If you want to find out what the glycemic index of a food is, for example, there are detailed protocols for measuring it, and for a lot of foods, you can even get the raw data that were taken.

How were the "alkaline end products" of things like citrus fruits measured? Who did it? Was it replicated? What's the process by which a proton donor somehow ends up a proton receptor? How can you consume a proton donor and not have a system wide pH drop? It's not that I'm saying it can't, just that so far I see the same table over and over on alternative med websites with no attribution.

Originally posted by Lil Drummerboy

Originally posted by snowspirit
wiki.answers.com...

"Does drinking water with lemon juice in make your pH level more alkaline?"

In fact yes. Although it is pretty obvious lemon is acidic, a weak acid. The response that it creates in the body, however, is extremely alkaline. Lemon and lime juice promote the release of sodium bicarbonate from the pancreas to support enzyme activity. As well as this, lemon is converted to potassium citrate in the intestine which is also alkaline. So... drink away!!

edit on 7-4-2012 by snowspirit because: removed link, not working

I recommend using real lemons and washing them before you cut into them. try to remember all the people that dont wash their hands after they use the bathroom are touching your lemon before it gets to you..

Good point about making sure the produce is clean when using it. Im lucky that I have my own fresh limes in my backyard and its all organic.

Thanks for all the fantastic and informative responses already. I think this topic needs more coverage as its vital to maintaining a healthy balance within the body. Given all the crap we are being poisoned with on a daily basis as a result of our instant and take away lifestyles, I think it essential we find ways to reduce or even neutralize some of these negative toxins.

Enjoying a nice freshly squeezed lime juice for breakfast and after all the reading i have done I can tell you it feels good to know im helping balance out some of the damage i have caused my body.

Originally posted by Bedlam
reply to post by SonOfTheLawOfOne

 

Great! That's basically the explanation on alt med sites, but nicely worded. Is there a scholarly paper, or a website that gives details that's NOT an alternative medicine website?

If you want to find out what the glycemic index of a food is, for example, there are detailed protocols for measuring it, and for a lot of foods, you can even get the raw data that were taken.

How were the "alkaline end products" of things like citrus fruits measured? Who did it? Was it replicated? What's the process by which a proton donor somehow ends up a proton receptor? How can you consume a proton donor and not have a system wide pH drop? It's not that I'm saying it can't, just that so far I see the same table over and over on alternative med websites with no attribution.

edit on 7-4-2012 by Bedlam because: (no reason given)

Im not sure I understand your question in its entirety?

Are you asking by what exact process the body converts the citric acid of the fruit into an alkaline product??

Based on what SonOfTheLawOfOne describes the pancreas releases a base which neutralizes the acid and then the fruit and enzymes in the digestive track break down the rest of the juices into alkaline. I'm no chemical engineer so I dont know the exact process but it would be simple enough to measure. Measure your PH for a couple of days then drink 2 or 3 glasses or lime juice a day for a week and then retest your PH. If your PH turns more alkaline then chances are the process works. Wouldnt be the first time in human history we dont understand why something works but still utilize its effects to our benefit.

At the end of the day untill someone smarter than me figures it out as long as it does what its supposed to do im quite happy drinking Lime juice if it helps lower the acidity of my body. If nothing else im getting my daily dose of Vitamin C.

Its a win - win.

Originally posted by Bedlam
reply to post by SonOfTheLawOfOne

 

Great! That's basically the explanation on alt med sites, but nicely worded. Is there a scholarly paper, or a website that gives details that's NOT an alternative medicine website?

If you want to find out what the glycemic index of a food is, for example, there are detailed protocols for measuring it, and for a lot of foods, you can even get the raw data that were taken.

How were the "alkaline end products" of things like citrus fruits measured? Who did it? Was it replicated? What's the process by which a proton donor somehow ends up a proton receptor? How can you consume a proton donor and not have a system wide pH drop? It's not that I'm saying it can't, just that so far I see the same table over and over on alternative med websites with no attribution.

edit on 7-4-2012 by Bedlam because: (no reason given)

Hmmm... I'm not exactly sure what information you're looking for, but I'll take a crack at it.

If you are looking for medical proof of a food conversion process from acid to alkaline, it's advanced high school or college chemistry and has to do with how acids, bases and salts work together. There is no medical journal that goes into details about this process as far as I know, because the medical establishment has long established stool tests, colonics, wireless pills that you can swallow, that measure pH in the intestines from top to bottom and the field of chemistry is deeply intimate with medicine.

The stomach is hydrochloric acid and will burn through wood. It's meant to dissolve anything you put into it. Some people have stronger acid than others. If you take the same hydrochloric and gastric acid that is in your stomach and put it in a vile, and dropped food into it and measured what the chyme contained, you'd get a higher pH from eating limes, lemons and oranges, and a LOWER pH from acidic foods like sugar and high fructose corn syrup. As this passes down the intestines, due to the amount of bicarbonate and minerals that are in whole foods, as well as fiber, the higher pH foods climb in pH and the lower ones from sugar stay low. What comes out in the end, if it is of a "normal" or balanced pH, and means you are healthy and have a good digestive system. When it doesn't come out normal, you have a problem and probably a low pH. The good bacteria in your intestine DIE when they encounter pH that is too low and the bad bacteria grow, and so your intestines want to get it OUT ASAP! So that's why that happens...

So I guess what I'm saying is that it is experimental science that can be done at home? Eat nothing but sugary, crappy junk food for a month, for all 3 meals, and drink soda, and tell me what happens. Then go a month eating whole foods, lots of fruits and veggies, lean meats, and drink nothing but water or teas with no sugar that isn't naturally occurring, such as in fruits, and tell me how you feel. In fact, do it for a week.

So it comes down to basic chemistry and stool tests, or litmus paper for your urine, which also reflects a higher pH or when you eat and drink higher pH foods.

I hope that helps!

~Namaste

reply to post by TiM3LoRd


Awesome limes!

A squeeze of that in some vanilla roobios tea with some local orange blossom honey.

I'm jealous of your limes...

~Namaste

Originally posted by TiM3LoRdIm not sure I understand your question in its entirety?

Are you asking by what exact process the body converts the citric acid of the fruit into an alkaline product??

Well, that would be nice, at least a pointer to somewhere that does explain it. Technical is ok, I can hang with it until you get up to zwitterions. Physical chemistry is nasty.

But as much as anything else, I'm looking for where that info that everyone posts on which foods are 'alkaline' or not actually came from, who gathered that data, what was the testing criteria? Or is it just based on assumptions and TCM?

Based on what SonOfTheLawOfOne describes the pancreas releases a base which neutralizes the acid and then the fruit and enzymes in the digestive track break down the rest of the juices into alkaline. I'm no chemical engineer so I dont know the exact process but it would be simple enough to measure.

That's what I'm asking. Did someone do something similar? If you want a glycemic index, that's laid out. If you want a 'which foods are alkaline or not', that seems to come from thin air. I can't find the original attribution. I don't see it on mainstream sites. I don't see it on scholarly sites. I'm not saying it isn't so, I just can't validate it. Hoping someone here has actually seen data that substantiates the table. Otherwise, how do you know they didn't just make it up?

For those interested, here are two abstracts that discuss how alkalinity inhibits tumor growth, and how acidic diets tend to promote tumor growth. There are a ton of other related papers to these.

Bicarbonate Increases Tumor pH and Inhibits Spontaneous Metastases

Acid-Mediated Tumor Invasion: a Multidisciplinary Study

Look to the right in small print, you'll see "Full Text PDF". Cick on that to view the entire paper.

~Namaste

Originally posted by SonOfTheLawOfOne

Hmmm... I'm not exactly sure what information you're looking for, but I'll take a crack at it.

If you are looking for medical proof of a food conversion process from acid to alkaline, it's advanced high school or college chemistry and has to do with how acids, bases and salts work together. There is no medical journal that goes into details about this process as far as I know, because the medical establishment has long established stool tests, colonics, wireless pills that you can swallow, that measure pH in the intestines from top to bottom and the field of chemistry is deeply intimate with medicine.

Yeah, I understand basic chemistry, even had a couple of semesters of organic. Let me rephrase - how do you know that table has any correspondence to reality? I see it all over the alt med sites but nowhere else. How did they measure the "alkalinity"? If I want to measure a glycemic index, there's a specified fasting period, then a specific amount of the food to be consumed, then a waiting period, then so many blood glucose tests so many minutes apart etc. That way the test produces something like a consistent number if replicated by another testing lab. What's the protocol used for testing the alkalinizing potential of a kumquat? Was it even tested at all? Did this table of acid and alkaline foods come from someone's imagination?

I'm looking for the original data or test that produced the table on your site. No one ever seems to know where it came from, but everyone believes it.

reply to post by Bedlam


I think what you are looking for is PRAL - potential renal acid load - which is one of the measures of determining the acidity or alkalinity of foods that are ingested.

Potential renal acid load of foods and its influence on urine pH

And the way that this is calculated can be further explained in PRAL calculations and measurements here:

Dietary potential renal acid load and renal net acid excretion in
healthy, free-living children and adolescents - (I couldn't find the original paper that I had linked prior, so this one will have to do)

Whole foods also has a great explanation HERE.

~Namaste

in actuality everything on the chart in the OP is in fact very acidic. the chart is showing the most alkaline of the items however on a acidic / pH chart something isn't considered "alkaline" until it exceeds the alkalinity of the human eye, around 7.3 pH and the reciprocal is also true it isn't considered acidic until it falls below the 7.2 - 7.4 threshold. and is thus an irritant to the human body. the chart is misleading and thus i dismiss the entire article attached to it.

reply to post by TiM3LoRd


Also, consuming an acidic diet is very bad, because your body needs to maintain a balance. Since calcium is alkaline, your body sucks it out of your bones and teeth when you are acidic.

Soda's are very acidic...almost as low as hydrochloric acid.

reply to post by TiM3LoRd


The fruits you described in the OP are all acidic.

Citrus fruits - citric acid.

It argues somewhat against the thesis of the OP.

Originally posted by chr0naut
reply to post by TiM3LoRd

 

The fruits you described in the OP are all acidic.

Citrus fruits - citric acid.

It argues somewhat against the thesis of the OP.

That is right the fruits are acidic but when consumed produce an alkaline effect on the body. This is where we are at in terms of the discussion. As i mentioned before, As long as the fruits reduce the acidity in my body i dont really care how it does it. Im after the end result not too concerned with the in between. I'm too old to take up digestive chemistry. It is an easy enough hypothesis to test.

Originally posted by TiM3LoRd

Originally posted by chr0naut
reply to post by TiM3LoRd

 

The fruits you described in the OP are all acidic.

Citrus fruits - citric acid.

It argues somewhat against the thesis of the OP.

That is right the fruits are acidic but when consumed produce an alkaline effect on the body. This is where we are at in terms of the discussion. As i mentioned before, As long as the fruits reduce the acidity in my body i dont really care how it does it. Im after the end result not too concerned with the in between. I'm too old to take up digestive chemistry. It is an easy enough hypothesis to test.

In my opinion, foods should simply be balanced.

The best trick is variety. Lots of colors, lots of textures, acid and alkaline, carbohydrates, oils, proteins, liquids and solids and not too much of any one thing.

The body and digestion is largely self-regulating in healthy people. Attempting to force something upon the body is wasted effort.

Originally posted by CaDreamer
in actuality everything on the chart in the OP is in fact very acidic. the chart is showing the most alkaline of the items however on a acidic / pH chart something isn't considered "alkaline" until it exceeds the alkalinity of the human eye, around 7.3 pH and the reciprocal is also true it isn't considered acidic until it falls below the 7.2 - 7.4 threshold. and is thus an irritant to the human body. the chart is misleading and thus i dismiss the entire article attached to it.

Great contribution... you dismiss something that the OP is asking a question about?

There are a lot of charts that are somewhat accurate, it's hard to find one that is two-sided. The charts you find online are based (usually) on the effect on blood, urine, saliva and stool, not the pH before it's consumed, because in that case, almost everything is acidic.

Your understanding of pH seems a bit off, do you have a source for your information?

I'm still trying to make sense of your post...

~Namaste

reply to post by SonOfTheLawOfOne


At least that's a place to start, although the first link looks a bit bad on face value.

They seem to be measuring the amount of acidity excreted after ingesting a food. If I eat cheese, according to the abstract, I pee out a lot of acid (low ph, large volume). However, if I drink fruit juice, I don't. (higher pH, lower volume).

I'm not sure that's telling you what the table says. If I consume a lot of lemon juice at a pH of 2.3, and only pee out a little of the acid load, then I'll be systemically more acidic, right? Not more alkaline? I won't have gotten the excess proton load out, at least not by urine. You might dispose of it by breathing it off as CO2, I suppose.

Off to do some reading on PRAL.

Originally posted by chr0naut

Originally posted by TiM3LoRd

Originally posted by chr0naut
reply to post by TiM3LoRd

 

The fruits you described in the OP are all acidic.

Citrus fruits - citric acid.

It argues somewhat against the thesis of the OP.

That is right the fruits are acidic but when consumed produce an alkaline effect on the body. This is where we are at in terms of the discussion. As i mentioned before, As long as the fruits reduce the acidity in my body i dont really care how it does it. Im after the end result not too concerned with the in between. I'm too old to take up digestive chemistry. It is an easy enough hypothesis to test.

In my opinion, foods should simply be balanced.

The best trick is variety. Lots of colors, lots of textures, acid and alkaline, carbohydrates, oils, proteins, liquids and solids and not too much of any one thing.

The body and digestion is largely self-regulating in healthy people. Attempting to force something upon the body is wasted effort.

I respectfully disagree but understand why you'd disagree and can see your point.

However, it is a bit more complex than that, and there are countless studies that show that certain oils and fats, such as ones that are hydrogenated, are bad for you and lead to disease. Remember how they used to say trans-fat was good for you?? What happened to that? How about aspartame? That's been legal for a long time, but it's highly acidic and poisonous to the body, but it's far cheaper than sugar.

You should lean towards an alkaline diet, but following the 80/20 rule, 80% alkaline, 20% acidic, for the majority of your diet, that automatically means you'll be eating more fruits and veggies and leaner meats, and drinking more water and less soda. Carbohydrates are good when they aren't artificial and are simple, and texture doesn't mean as much unless you're talking about fiber, which is essential.

Humans ate hundreds of grams of fiber a day for thousands of years. There is NONE in any packaged or processed foods, otherwise they couldn't store it for long periods of time. Watch the video I posted a few posts back, it is a leading endocrinologist talking about the chemical and biological effects of sugar and high fructose corn syrup and lack of fiber in our diets. He is but 1 of MANY doctors that aren't getting paid enough to keep quiet about it. I think you'll appreciate it.

~Namaste

ETA: for all of the end-of-the-world folks, make sure you're eating your (non-GMO) popcorn, because it's good fiber! But use an olive oil spray and sea salt for a healthier batch and munch away, you'll feel better for it!

Originally posted by chr0naut

Originally posted by TiM3LoRd

Originally posted by chr0naut
reply to post by TiM3LoRd

 

The fruits you described in the OP are all acidic.

Citrus fruits - citric acid.

It argues somewhat against the thesis of the OP.

That is right the fruits are acidic but when consumed produce an alkaline effect on the body. This is where we are at in terms of the discussion. As i mentioned before, As long as the fruits reduce the acidity in my body i dont really care how it does it. Im after the end result not too concerned with the in between. I'm too old to take up digestive chemistry. It is an easy enough hypothesis to test.

In my opinion, foods should simply be balanced.

The best trick is variety. Lots of colors, lots of textures, acid and alkaline, carbohydrates, oils, proteins, liquids and solids and not too much of any one thing.

The body and digestion is largely self-regulating in healthy people. Attempting to force something upon the body is wasted effort.

I agree completely, but the scenario you are referring to only exist in movies storybooks and remote jungle villages where people dont live in modern environments. I wont go into a rant about how our current takeaway lifestyle with its preservatives and trans fats are killing us. I will say that on average the food we eat and the drinks we consume are heinously bad for us.

Its actually a testament to how awesome the human regulatory system is that we havent all dropped dead from the poisons we ingest on a daily basis. We have a very adaptable biology but we are not doing ourselves any favors with the crap we eat and drink.

What im suggesting is a return to ballance which is what this thread is all about. NOT going all out alkaline. As we have discussed a majority of the food and drink we consume is acidic and as a result be tend to have a more acidic pH in the body. As i mentioned before im not too concerned on WHAT reduces the acidity in my body only that it DOES. If that means bi carb soda or lime juice then so be it. Whatever it takes is what i will take.

The point im trying to make is that I understand and acknowledge the importance of maintaining a balanced pH. Im here to find the best possible way to achieve it not debate the process of how it occurs. It would be great to get an understanding of how it happens but that is secondary to the primary objective of fixing my body first.

If i am being pursued by a dangerous threat and my only means of escape is a car with the keys in the ignition I will most certainly NOT stop to try and understand the inner working of the engine or the gear box or the fuel injection. What I will do is jump in the car turn it on and get the hell our of harms way. When I am in more of a safe location I might pull the car over and look into the inner working of how the car works. For the moment im quite happy that it does what it does.