Hey All You Trinitarians, Anti Trinitarians And Those Who Don't Give A -----... "The Word" Manife

I ran across this thanks to a fellow ATS member who posted another article by Dr. Heiser.
Just a little background; I was raised in an anti-trinitarian theology religion, but have evolved into a person who sees both sides of the argument, and have even come to appreciate the Greek philosophy that, until now, I believed to be the basis of the "Christian Godhead".

Now onto the meat and potatoes; The basic premise of this is that the concept of a multi faceted Godhead did not originate with the New Testament(NT), First Century Christianity, The Roman Catholic Church, Pagans or even Greek philosophy. Rather, it originated with the Old Testament(OT) and a Jewish Godhead.

The most famous, and most argued, of New Testament Trinity verses is John 1:1-3 and the fleshly v14. Usually the debate of these verses, and their implications, slides into an argument over semantics. For those of you not familiar with these verses they go something like this;

1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was (a) God. 2 He was with God in the beginning. 3 Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.
14 The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us.

Dr. Heiser flips all this on it's head and makes the argument, quite well I may add, that "The Word" made numerous appearances as a physical being seperate yet the same as Yahweh in the OT. He was, and always has been, the physical manifestation of Yahweh long before Jesus "the god-man" ever made his appearance.

The phrase “the word of the Lord came to me” or something similar is very
common in the Old Testament. That often happened to prophets who were getting
tuned by God aurally to deliver some message to a typically unreceptive audience.
There are occasions when it means more, though—when it’s actually describing a
person or entity. So, in what follows, I don’t mean to say that when you see this phrase
or one like it that it always or even mostly refers to some sort of divine person. I only
mean to say that sort of thing does happen, and I believe it’s fundamental to what John
had in mind when he wrote the first chapter of his gospel. Let’s take a look at some
examples.

Genesis 15 is a fairly familiar passage to many Christians, at least in terms of the
basic flow of events. In that chapter God repeats his promise to Abraham from Genesis
12 that the patriarch will have descendants as numerous as the stars in the sky. But is
God alone when he makes this promise? Check it out and watch for the underlining:

1 After these things the word of the Lord came to Abram in a vision: “Fear
not, Abram, I am your shield; your reward shall be very great.” 2 But Abram said, “O Lord God [Hebrew, adonai-Yahweh] what will you give
me, for I continue childless, and the heir of my house is Eliezer of
Damascus?” 3 And Abram said, “Behold, you have given me no offspring,
and a member of my household will be my heir.” 4 And behold, the word
of the Lord came to him: “This man shall not be your heir; your very own
son shall be your heir.” 5 And he brought him outside and said, “Look
toward heaven, and number the stars, if you are able to number them.”
Then he said to him, “So shall your offspring be.” 6 And he believed the
Lord [Hebrew, Yahweh] and he counted it to him as righteousness.

This is a fascinating text. Notice right from the start that it is the WORD of the
Lord who comes to Abram in a vision. This is no mere voice or auditory sensation.
The Word here is something that can be seen—else why call it a vision? Abram
recognizes this Word or being as the Lord (Yahweh) and speaks to him as such. Now,
since Abram is in a conversation with God, we might be tempted to say that the phrase
“the word of the Lord came to him” in verse four is just a sound in his ear and no other
person is visibly there. Verse five makes it clear that we are interpreting verse one
correctly—that there is a person there with Abraham: “And he [the Word / Yahweh]
brought him outside and said …” A sound does not bring a person outside; another
person does. My thinking here is that this text does not have two deity figures in it at
one time, but rather that here we have another case of Yahweh appearing in visible form
to Abraham, this time referred to as the Word. Incidentally, have you ever wondered
how, in Genesis 18, where we read point-blank that Yahweh visits Abraham as a human
(or in a human body since he ate with Abraham), Abraham recognized Yahweh in that
episode? My guess is that he had seen him before, here in Genesis 15.
ii
The most powerful evidence that Genesis 15 is describing a visible person
referred to as the “Word” comes from the New Testament—and from Jesus, the Word,
himself. In John 8:56, the Incarnate Word tells his Jewish antagonists that he appeared
to Abraham prior to his incarnation: “Your father Abraham rejoiced that he would see
my day. He saw it and was glad.” The Jews object to this claim, whereupon Jesus utters
his famous statement, “before Abraham was, I am” (John 8:58).
iii
My point here is that only one passage in the Old Testament makes sense of this claim by Jesus, the Logos,
the Word—Genesis 15:1, where “the Word of the Lord appeared to Abraham in a
vision” as the visible, personal manifestation of Yahweh. I hope you grasp the
significance of this interchange. Since the Word is clearly equated and identified as
Yahweh in Genesis 15, when the New Testament has Jesus saying “that was me,” he is
claiming to be Yahweh in visible form. He is the Word of the Old Testament, who was
the visible Yahweh.

If your interest isn't peaked by now feel free to move along. If it is go read it in fullhere

If you're still on the fence check this little gem out.

In Jeremiah 1, the call of the prophet, we read:

1 The words of Jeremiah, the son of Hilkiah, one of the priests who were
in Anathoth in the land of Benjamin, 2 to whom the word of the Lord
came in the days of Josiah the son of Amon, king of Judah, in the
thirteenth year of his reign. 3 It came also in the days of Jehoiakim the son
of Josiah, king of Judah, and until the end of the eleventh year of
Zedekiah, the son of Josiah, king of Judah, until the captivity of Jerusalem
in the fifth month. 4 Now the word of the Lord came to me, saying, 5
“Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, and before you were born I
consecrated you; I appointed you a prophet to the nations.” 6 Then I said,
“Ah, Lord God! [Hebrew, adonai-Yahweh] Behold, I do not know how to
speak, for I am only a youth.” 7 But the Lord [Yahweh] said to me, “Do
not say, ‘I am only a youth’; for to all to whom I send you, you shall go,
and whatever I command you, you shall speak. 8 Do not be afraid of them,
for I am with you to deliver you, declares the Lord.” 9 Then the Lord [Yahweh] put out his hand and touched my mouth. And the Lord
[Yahweh] said to me, “Behold, I have put my words in your mouth.

It is quite clear from the first eight verses in this chapter that the prophet is
conversing with Yahweh, who in verse 4 is referred to as “the Word.” We could easily
take this as Jeremiah speaking to the air or responding to something only in his ear. But
then comes verse nine, where the Word reaches out and touches Jeremiah. Sounds
don’t physically touch people. Physical persons touch people. In Jeremiah 1 the
Word—pardon my borrowing from John 1:14—is made flesh and does something only
a physical entity can do.

And now ladies and gentleman I present to you the clencher. This little dilemma that "The Word" was the physical manifestation of Yahweh was recognized by the Jews. As you may know Jews in Jesus' time largely spoke Aramaic. This resulted in a translation of the Hebrew scriptures known as the Targum widely used for daily reading.

The word for "Word" in aramaic is Memra. There are many places throughout the OT where there appears to be "two manifestations" of Yahweh. The Targum clears this up by placing Memra in those places. Below are a few verses for you to compare to your own personal Bible.

Genesis 19:24- Then the Memra of the Lord [Yahweh] rained on Sodom and Gomorrah
sulfur and fire from the Lord out of heaven.

Genesis 15:6- And Abraham trusted in the Memra of the Lord [Yahweh], and He
counted it to him for righteousness.

Genesis 17:7 - And I will establish my covenant between my Memra and
between you.

Genesis 1:3 – the first creative act of God:
And the Memra of the Lord [Yahweh] said, “Let there be light,” and there
was light by his Memra.”
Genesis 1:27 – the Creation of humankind (recall the plural verbs in verse 26 –
let us make humankind in our image”):
And the Memra of the Lord [Yahweh] created man in His likeness, in the
likeness of the presence of the Lord He created him, the male and his yokefellow He created them.
Genesis 3:8 – God comes to Adam and Eve “walking in the garden in the cool
of the day” after they have eaten the forbidden fruit):
And they heard the voice of the Memra of the Lord [Yahweh] walking . . .
Genesis 28:20 – This verse records Jacob's vow, "If God will be with me ...
then Yahweh will be my God."
"If the Memra of the Lord will be my help... the Memra of the Lord shall be
my God."
Exodus 3:14 – Moses’ burning bush experience (we haven’t gotten to this yet,
but God is not the only one in the bush; notice how the Memra speaks as though
he is Yahweh):
And the Memra of the Lord said to Moses: "I am He who said unto the
world 'Be!' and it was: and who in the future shall say to it 'Be!' and it shall
be." And He said: "Thus you shall say to the children of Israel: 'I Am' has
sent me to you."
Exodus 17:21 – The flight from Egypt where God is in the pillar of the cloud /
fire leading Israel out of Egypt:
And the Memra of the Lord [Yahweh] was leading them during the day in a
pillar of cloud.

So, what do you think? Does the idea of a seperate yet equal binitarian(there's evidence of trinitarian too but it's a little deeper)Yahweh Godhead have it's roots in Jewish theology?

reply to post by wearewatchingyouman


Dear wearewatchingyou:

I know that you don't describe yourself as Christian....

But I have noticed you say you enjoy the company of Christians immensely....

And you are obviously very interested in the Holy Spirit and the Christ....

Has the thought occured to you this is the Holy Spirits way of convincing you? That the Holy Spirit is indeed working in you, whether you acknowledge Him or not?

Bless you.....

Great thread, praise the Lord you're coming around to the truth. Here is another nugget, or two. At the baptism of Christ, He is in the H2O with John the Baptist and the Father calls down from heaven and His Holy Spirit descends like a dove from heaven. All are present at the baptism.

Also Christ declared that "no man" had seen the Father at any time, and that the Father is Spirit. Well, which "Lord God" met with Abraham "face to face" accompanied with 2 angels in Genesis 18?

Yeshua/ Jesus.

reply to post by wearewatchingyouman


I prefer

word = sound = vibration = frequency = universe/everything

everything originates from vibrations/frequencies

God says 'BE' and it is (he creates/destroys via sound/frequency)

reply to post by wearewatchingyouman

Anti Trinitarians And Those Who Don't Give A -----...

I think I fit in somewhere between there

Those are some great examples and rationalizations. I enjoyed the read. But I do not think "The Word" being manifest as flesh is mystical. For is it not written ye are gods? Are we not flesh with spirit? Are we not made in God's image?


reply to post by CitizenNum287119327


Yes, I agree with you. Completely.

reply to post by wearewatchingyouman


Great topic. One of my favorite aspects of linguistics is to study the ancient Hebrew pictographs of the proto-Cannanite language. A simple reading of the symbols in YHVH reveals the meaning. Behold the Hands, Behold the Nail. I did many articles on this subject. Link in my signature. Here's is PPSIMMONS version.

Originally posted by Sahabi
reply to post by wearewatchingyouman

 

Anti Trinitarians And Those Who Don't Give A -----...

I think I fit in somewhere between there

Those are some great examples and rationalizations. I enjoyed the read. But I do not think "The Word" being manifest as flesh is mystical. For is it not written ye are gods? Are we not flesh with spirit? Are we not made in God's image?

Interesting that you bring up Psalm 82/John 10. My view has been much the same as yours for some time. Here is another article by Heiser, that I read last night, where he makes the argument that when Jesus quotes Psalms 82 and says "is it not written that ye are Gods" he is not making a reference to the Jewish judges and humanity but rather, quite the opposite, he is claiming to be divine. He makes the argument, once again quite well, that Psalms 82 is not referencing human judges but literally a heavenly council of lesser "Gods of the nations." If you're interested check it out. www.thedivinecouncil.com...

Originally posted by Iason321
reply to post by wearewatchingyouman

 

Dear wearewatchingyou:

I know that you don't describe yourself as Christian....

But I have noticed you say you enjoy the company of Christians immensely....

And you are obviously very interested in the Holy Spirit and the Christ....

Has the thought occured to you this is the Holy Spirits way of convincing you? That the Holy Spirit is indeed working in you, whether you acknowledge Him or not?

Bless you.....

While I appreciate the sentiment, I don't think I could ever identify myself as "Christian". I do try to live my life in accord with the basic tenants of Jesus. The spirit may even be within me. I however identify myself as an Agnostic Theist. I do believe in God. I just don't see that belief as rational. God, and his plan, are beyond human explanation, and understanding, and as a human I realize my limits when it comes to this.

To be a "Christian" I must believe, and tell others, that the only way to be saved is to accept Christ as your savior. I'm not too sure about that at this point. While I appreciate the Bible, and other holy books, I can't bring myself to accept one view, or interpretation, of God and His plan. There are many paths to God that I can see as great arguments. As I'm sure you'll come to learn about me I often take one side or the other in debates around ATS just so I can better understand them.

I do appreciate your interest in my salvation though. I find that for the most part Christians do care about people, and thus they try and get people on what they consider to be the path to everlasting life. Because of this I never say never that something might knock me over the head with enough force to put me on that path. Peace.

For those of you who would like to look at this binitary Godhead theory a little deeper I highly recomend this video. vimeo.com...

Wow i didnt even know he had this on his site. Good stuff sir.

reply to post by wearewatchingyouman


Hey WAWYM!


I realize you said you believe in God, but these answers for the God of the Christian Bible are still great reasons for faith in His Son and I wanted to share them with you. I pray they bless you, Amen.

Originally posted by wearewatchingyouman

Originally posted by Sahabi
reply to post by wearewatchingyouman

 

Anti Trinitarians And Those Who Don't Give A -----...

I think I fit in somewhere between there

Those are some great examples and rationalizations. I enjoyed the read. But I do not think "The Word" being manifest as flesh is mystical. For is it not written ye are gods? Are we not flesh with spirit? Are we not made in God's image?

Interesting that you bring up Psalm 82/John 10. My view has been much the same as yours for some time. Here is another article by Heiser, that I read last night, where he makes the argument that when Jesus quotes Psalms 82 and says "is it not written that ye are Gods" he is not making a reference to the Jewish judges and humanity but rather, quite the opposite, he is claiming to be divine. He makes the argument, once again quite well, that Psalms 82 is not referencing human judges but literally a heavenly council of lesser "Gods of the nations." If you're interested check it out. www.thedivinecouncil.com...

Check out my "rebuke" link in my sig, very good info. They murdered Him for blasphemy because of His many claims to divinity.

reply to post by wearewatchingyouman

So, what do you think? Does the idea of a seperate yet equal binitarian(there's evidence of trinitarian too but it's a little deeper)Yahweh Godhead have it's roots in Jewish theology?

I would say yes. There does seem to be evidence of a trinity in Judaism. Starting with Daniel.

Daniel 10.
4 And in the four and twentieth day of the first month, as I was by the side of the great river, which is Hiddekel;
5 Then I lifted up mine eyes, and looked, and behold a certain man clothed in linen, whose loins were girded with fine gold of Uphaz:
6 His body also was like the beryl, and his face as the appearance of lightning, and his eyes as lamps of fire, and his arms and his feet like in colour to polished brass, and the voice of his words like the voice of a multitude.

Daniel 12.
5 Then I Daniel looked, and, behold, there stood other two, the one on this side of the bank of the river, and the other on that side of the bank of the river.
6 And one said to the man clothed in linen, which was upon the waters of the river, How long shall it be to the end of these wonders?
7 And I heard the man clothed in linen, which was upon the waters of the river, when he held up his right hand and his left hand unto heaven, and sware by him that liveth for ever that it shall be for a time, times, and an half; and when he shall have accomplished to scatter the power of the holy people, all these things shall be finished.
8 And I heard, but I understood not: then said I, O my Lord, what shall be the end of these things?

Daniel saw 3 beings in his vision. But who was the other 2?

Zechariah 4
12 And I answered again, and said unto him, What be these two olive branches which through the two golden pipes empty the golden oil out of themselves?
13 And he answered me and said, Knowest thou not what these be? And I said, No, my lord.
14 Then said he, These are the two anointed ones, that stand by the LORD of the whole earth.

Zechariah 3.
8 Hear now, O Joshua the high priest, thou, and thy fellows that sit before thee: for they are men wondered at: for, behold, I will bring forth my servant the BRANCH.

Revelation 11
3 And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.
4 These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.

Genesis 18
1 And the LORD appeared unto him in the plains of Mamre: and he sat in the tent door in the heat of the day;
2 And he lift up his eyes and looked, and, lo, three men stood by him: and when he saw them, he ran to meet them from the tent door, and bowed himself toward the ground,
3 And said, My LORD, if now I have found favour in thy sight, pass not away, I pray thee, from thy servant:

And Malachi 3.
1 Behold, I will send my messenger, and he shall prepare the way before me: and the LORD, whom ye seek, shall suddenly come to his temple, even the messenger of the covenant, whom ye delight in: behold, he shall come, saith the LORD of hosts.

It would appear that God has 2 close servants. And in certain formal occasions all 3 will appear together. They could appear to be a trinity.