age of criminal acountability being raised

age of criminal acountability being raised

due to the bulger case years ago
and jon venables recently been caught with child pornography
there is a debate now to raise the age limit of accountability

(visit the link for the full news article)


Related News Links:

en.wikipedia.org

accountability was lowered just before these monsters done what they done
now the argument is
the child knows right from wrong
but is still to young to grasp the criminal aspect of their actions

back when this happend
do gooders were ridiculed and blamed for being a soft touch
and age was lowerd
i dont know whether this is good or bad
they also said an increase of 24000 crimes in britain has increased between 10-14 yr old kids


(visit the link for the full news article)

reply to post by davesmart


sorry no source yet
was on channel 5 breaking news several mins ago

sorry for my spelling i rushed this out

Doing this is simply to lower the number of people in jail.

Gotta cut costs anywhere we can.

Wikipedia as your source? Why not use google.com or just put "the internet"?

Originally posted by DavidWillts
Wikipedia as your source? Why not use google.com or just put "the internet"?

like i said
breaking news on the tv on channel 5 uk
cheers

and the link is to the original case

Originally posted by Ixtab
Doing this is simply to lower the number of people in jail.

Gotta cut costs anywhere we can.

Thanks
that is the nail on the head
the news said the jails were increasing with youngsters

I think the jail system is nonsense anyhow. Plenty of people do stupid stuff when younger..and later on learn from their mistakes
Jail does not actually correct any behavior. probation and forced therapy to address the situation for non-violent crimes seems the best answer..but simply putting someone in a detention center with a bunch of other criminals only at best makes them stagnate..but more often than not, makes them pick up even worse traits (or become a smarter criminal).

I don't believe in do gooders, or monsters...well, I do actually, but my bar is different than most. a monster is someone whom premeditates murder or the like..hell, a respected politician can be far more of an "evil" mindset than some criminal. also, "do gooders" or whatever may have far more skeletons in their closet than someone with clear issues.
There are good and bad acts..but people are generally a blank slate that are capable of both sides at any given moment.

Age of accountability. Tough one really. This is something I am not qualified to even form an opinion on. I have noticed some very in tune 15 year olds in my life, and some 20 year olds that act like they were 10 in regards to understanding consequences. Again, big fan of qualified mental health experts weighing in on each case individually. In a perfect world, we would replace judges in most cases with therapists/psychologists. the corrections process needs to be for correcting behavior, not locking destructive behavior for a small time then unleashing it without any change or understanding of the individual. This is why we have repeat offenders on all crimes..the issue is rarely looked at, and when release happens, life is actually harder for the person to integrate with community.

reply to post by davesmart


Why not try this: Build facilities that educate people on the topic of the crimes they commit. If you get 'em young it might do some good. Every society has moral standards that dictate right from wrong. Use that moral standard as a base for the curriculum they teach.

For instance, child porn and sexual abuse. Teach them why it is wrong and the negative consequences that stem from those actions. Teach them how it throws THEIR moral compass out of whack and the emotional and physical ramifications of their actions on the ones they abused. And don't be soft about it either. Throw political correctness out the window because political correctness isn't what got the offenders there in the first place. Get down and dirty with it. Get on their level. If you want to save someone who is at the bottom of a well, do you talk them out of it? No. You go down and get 'em.

And the same applies to whatever else crimes they commit. Robbery, rape, animal abuse, assault.......make them HATE the type of person they're becoming.

Keep changing the age limit for criminal accountability and people might start to think that the people who govern us don't know what they're doing. Wait.......you're right. That ship has already sailed.

reply to post by SaturnFX


hya
yes this is toughy
i personally know 2 brothers that are in and out of jail even recently
i try to not divulge much because i dont want to portray myself as something im not
i talk to many people in my little way
and i can say these brothers stated
its so easy inside (brixton)
open wing
sky tv and a kettle in the cell
plenty of access to the gym and the library
and if they still had any problems
they would go to the chaplin
and he sorted everything
ive got the jail mail with the prison stamps to prove it

cheers
dave

reply to post by Taupin Desciple


hi
thx for your reply
yes the ships sailed
them ever so nice people that govern us know what they are doing
lower, then raise it
hahaha
love the irony

Originally posted by davesmart
reply to post by SaturnFX

 

hya
yes this is toughy
i personally know 2 brothers that are in and out of jail even recently
i try to not divulge much because i dont want to portray myself as something im not
i talk to many people in my little way
and i can say these brothers stated
its so easy inside (brixton)
open wing
sky tv and a kettle in the cell
plenty of access to the gym and the library
and if they still had any problems
they would go to the chaplin
and he sorted everything
ive got the jail mail with the prison stamps to prove it

cheers
dave

edit on 7-3-2012 by davesmart because: (no reason given)

British jails. heh
Anyhow, I will hand it to the brits, they do spend time trying a little bit to correct the person. I watched a documentry about long term prisoners over there and basically after hard time, a year or so before they go out, they sort of do a halfway house to get the people back into society...with amenities and extras. Thats fine, "culture shock" of going from spartan existance to suddenly surrounded by stuff can make a person institutionalized go a bit crazy.

As far as the folks you mention...are they getting treatment while in? getting people working with them to sort them out and not make the same bad decisions as before? no matter what the prison is, be it cold rock or silk pillows..unless the behavior is altered when they are out, then nothing has changed overall.

I don't judge people btw. I have a couple friends whom are ex-felons and they are good people whom made bad decisions when younger. I don't care..we all make bad decisions, just not everyone gets caught. If I judge them, I then have to judge myself..I judge them on how they are today...and I know plenty of people with clean records I wouldn't stand in the same room with if I could help it.

But ya, anyhow, the corrections system is broken...it is woefully primitive, and qualified discussions must be had about it and its intentions...if the aim is to lessen crime, then that is what needs to be put at the front...if its simply vendetta...then bring back gladiatoral fighting and at least lets be entertained with the tax dollars at work.

Originally posted by Taupin Desciple

For instance, child porn and sexual abuse. Teach them why it is wrong and the negative consequences that stem from those actions. Teach them how it throws THEIR moral compass out of whack and the emotional and physical ramifications of their actions on the ones they abused.

I try not to comment too much on specific crimes verses just the mentality behind it.
But quite often, victims of sex crimes are later on in life the aggressors. Yes, victim empathy is a huge part in making a person whom has molested a kid realize there was something wrong and should be pushed to the front.

But the saying goes, you cant "fix" a pedophile..and this is true, because quite often there is nothing actually broken in regards to how they act..meaning you can't teach them to not be attracted to kids...they aren't actually attracted to kids..so you cant unteach what wasn't taught to begin with.
What the issue is quite often is them not dealing with what happened to -them- and how they never got past the victim role..and so are reversing the role and becoming the non victim. That is where the effort is needed..
Basically, they need their inner child to be hugged as it were...the molestation of a kid is actually a symptom of the underlying problem, and not the problem itself..hense why treating the symptom is not a valid therapy for them.

As far as non-victim crimes, such as child porn watching or something. That is a mixed bag. From people supressing tendencies, to simple shock video watchers. each type needs to be addressed based on the motivation. Granted, it may be far less dangerous than someone whom actually touched someone, but should still be seen as a indicator of potential danger and a therapist needs to understand what they are dealing with.

The problem with sex cases in general is that quite often, all are treated the same...whereas there are such differences between each case.

The subject though has a witch hunt theme to it though making it uncomfortable for people to learn about and discuss rationally. Sad really, because that is the area the governmental officals will remove rights from the broader society..by using the ignorant fears of the taboo subjects

reply to post by SaturnFX


hi saturn
one of the brothers prior to going to jail
was on scitzophrenia meds
wen he 1st went to jail about 3 yrs ago
they took his meds of him and said he doesnt need that in here
within 2 wks of getting out, he was back in...
hearing voices

Originally posted by davesmart
reply to post by SaturnFX

 

hi saturn
one of the brothers prior to going to jail
was on scitzophrenia meds
wen he 1st went to jail about 3 yrs ago
they took his meds of him and said he doesnt need that in here
within 2 wks of getting out, he was back in...
hearing voices

That says it all, doesn't it
The jail system is broken and illogical. damn barbaric habits in the 21st century. only the most twisted of serial killers needs to be locked up. Everything else needs to be understood and corrected based on the individual issues.
Education and job placement would do far more for the stability for the average criminal than 2 years in the pokey

reply to post by SaturnFX

But quite often, victims of sex crimes are later on in life the aggressors.

That is not true at all, that is a misunderstood falsehood that people think is true.

apt.rcpsych.org...
Despite the paucity of reliable evidence, it is clear that the majority of
children who are sexually abused do not become
abusers. Moreover, we know that around half of
all young abusers have not themselves been victims
of abuse. This paper sets out to consider these issues
and highlight potentially important factors in
understanding the origins and development of
sexually abusive behaviour at an early age.

www.gao.gov...
Table 1: Results From the Research of Widom and Colleagues on the Cycle of Sexual Abuse
Sexually abused
(N = 153)
Physically abused
(N = 160) Neglected (N = 697) Controls (N = 667)
Adult arrests Odds ratioa Percent Odds ratioa Percent Odds ratioa Percent Odds ratioa Percent
Any sex crimeb 1.4 6.5% 1.4 11.0% 2.1 13.1% Not applicable 6.0%
Prostitution 3.7* 3.9% 0.9 1.4% 5.0* 3.6% Not applicable 0.6%
Rape or sodomyc 1.9 4.2% 2.4 4.7% 1.8 3.6% Not applicable 2.1%

That idea that the victims become abusers is demonstrably false and people normally hear this only on TV and movies.

reply to post by SaturnFX


could not agree with you more
maybe labour and the notion of doing something worthwhile may change them
but when they come out
depression kicks in because nothings realy changed on the outside
and they had had these notions of getting a job as soon as they are out
and theres none
like you say
there is so many factors concerning each case
and each one has to be approached in a different manner
cheers
dave

(sorry spelling)

Originally posted by DavidWillts
That idea that the victims become abusers is demonstrably false and people normally hear this only on TV and movies.

Victims don't always become abusers. Sorry if you thought that to be what I was saying
But more often than not, victims, untreated, tend to have destructive patterns in life..be it abusing others, or drug habits, etc...
point is, the subconscious will always try to sort out trama in some way...either through it being addressed directly via therapy, or other means later on (being in abusive relationships for instance).

As far as abusers being former victims. no, not all abusers were victims also...but the majority (51% makes majority) were in some form...but also realize it doesn't necessarily mean just sexual abuse. physical abuse also can manifest into dangerous traits later on, mental abuse, etc...

Then there is the poor moral compass. This actually can be attributed to actions later on in life...again, trama events often lead to this. a death of a close relative, a particularly nasty divorce, etc..things that break down the barrier of humanity and personal ethics.

Finally, there are the technical abuse cases (such as an 18 year old being with a 15 year old type thing). Those are just stupid mistakes and a slap to the head often fixes that issue...but arguably, a 60 year old with a 17 year old (still illegal in many areas) is equally as technical as a post pubescent person is in fact biologically attractive to adults...in those cases, its simply a matter of them dealing with the legalities.

The problem with the stats is that they are all mixed in together, giving inaccurate understandings simply by the graphs..which is why I am a fan of individual studying for corrections verses a one size fits all shoebox.
But, my way costs money...however, it lessens the chance of reoffending..so, its give and take really...still, some would see the initial cost of individual corrections and say no...not seeing the savings of correcting a behavior for less re-offending or other destructive patterns

My info comes from a therapists understanding whom I trust moreso than poltical statistics. He actually has the full understanding and I find the subject fascinating overall (mental health in general, not just his understanding of sex crimes. I am also highly interested in his information about paranoid, obsessive compusive disorders, and society psychology (mob thinking).
I personally never watch drama television, I actually have no clue how the media describes such people honestly. But do be careful when using media to try to understand a group..as a group is not a one size fits all, but rather typically consisting of dozens of sub-groups and averaged out

reply to post by SaturnFX


Had to stop reading and reply to this. You're pretty much spot on and I can speak from very recent experience, as I got arrested Monday night and had to get a lawyer to get me out, albeit only maybe a day or so earlier, but he's still a gonna help with this mess I'm in. So, about them jails. They are a joke, a very bad, very painful experience that most people should not have to go through. Some do, like the guy I met who got jacked on Friday. He got out same time I did last night and his clothes were hospital scrubs. He had no idea how he ended up wearing them when he got arrested or even when his clothes were changed and no recollection of what he did to get jacked. Alcohol does funny things, apparently.

So yeah, there is a need for jail for people who really mess up but most were in there for the most ridiculous things. One guy was charged with stealing a car, a felony, because he fell asleep in a friend of a friends car while charging his phone. Stupid yes, but not a felony, and the guy who owned the car didn't even want to press charges but the cop was "already there" so he had to do something, or so the kid says and after what I went through I certainly have no reason to doubt him.

Another guy was taken out of community service and put in jail, for what he was doing the CS for in the first place, and he wasn't late getting it done the park rangers, of all people, arrested him, HUH?

As far as jail for a rehab place, all it does is piss people off. We had a bit of fun with some of the questions asked when booked, like how do you feel about being in jail? Another HUH? Stupid questions get stupid answers. Being in a confined space with a bunch of jack-booted thugs who are basically king doo-doo's of poop hill as they have no power outside of the jail but the violence they inflicted was appalling at times. Their attitudes towards everyone was simply sad to witness. I'm no genius but I know enough to keep my mouth shut, some didn't get that memo and were dealt with rather harshly for using the bathroom or water fountain.I see the need for some order, but what I saw was over the top, IMHO. The verbal abuse was sad as they were not listening to their inmates and it could have cost someone. We had some pretty sick people in there and it took hours for them to do something about it and it was plain and clear these guys were truly sick.

The whole operation is a money making scam. Screwing people, not unlike me who right now is facing a $3,000 fine and a $1,500 lawyer fee to help with this. I screwed up - I KNOW better to pick up the damned phone, I have a Bluetooth but didn't have it in when the call came and ten seconds later I was getting rousted.

Also have to add, they have got to be one of the most incompetent systems of prison management. I guess I shouldn't ask for much as it's the government and they can't do anything right but that's not griping, that's just fact. I guess you really don't have to be that smart to be a cop or CO as the people there were mostly dunces.

reply to post by SaturnFX


The stats are bs here
in about 1989 the gov come out with a scheme
it was called the Y.T.S (youth training scheme)
which is basically
get young people to work in factorys with hands on training fo ran extra 10 pounds on the subsidy
wen thousands are on it
the gov can pat themselves on the back and say..
we have reduced unemployment