America there is no freedom

reply to post by nenothtu

I'm sorry. That was entirely lost on me. I lost no freedom. I went down to the station with the nice policeman, signed a paper, walked right back out, and trounced him on my day in court.

You lost no freedom??

Wrong. You inherently lost freedom when you were arrested:

Arrest: A seizure or forcible restraint; an exercise of the power to deprive a person of his or her liberty...

I hope I don't come across as rude but I truly believe that you have no concept of freedom. You mistake "privilege" for "freedom". You are unqualified to judge whether or not Americans have any freedoms because you have no concept of it.

I believe you exhibit a phenomena that is similar to Stockholm syndrome or battered wife syndrome where you identify and apologize for you captors and/ or abusers.

I have provided you with examples of people being arrested for using what you call a "freedom" yet you have justified that arrest as the individuals not exhibiting "common sense" or being offensive. However you then go on to admit that no one should be arrested for failure to use "common sense" or for offending another. It makes me wonder how you reconcile those arrest in your mind. Yet, somehow, you seem to.

Your proclamations are reminiscent of those of an ancient Roman Citizen. Their legal system had the concept of a "free citizen" and therefore the layman quite arrogantly professed how free they were, seemingly never to realize that the term was an oxymoron. One would be hard pressed to find a culture that was more regulated and controlled or one were the citizenship was more convinced of falsely believing they were free. It's a brilliant system and some things never change.

"None are so hopelessly enslaved as those who falsely believe they are free." -Goethe

reply to post by nenothtu

Now, in any society there is going to be a certain segment that just doesn't care who they harm. It happens in ALL societies. This is why laws come about - to provide measures to prevent those people from interfering with the rest of us. It shouldn't be our problem if THEY can't control themselves, so some times they must be controlled. If laws could be held to that, there would be no problem, but rule-makers thing the sole purpose of their existence is to make rules, without which they have no purpose to be, so that is exactly what they do. When they run out of sensible rules, they start making non-sensical ones, because they can.

These are your views and your views of boundary of freedom. You drew boundaries for the freedom as you liked , I draw them as I like. So , there will be different view , different boundaries , then there will be different constitution.

So , just because we have chosen different boundaries , you can not blame us for choosing them.

No. I'm against the export of western style law to countries that are unsuited to it, and I'm definitely against "nation building" and spreading "democracy" at the point of a sword. In my mind, that exercise is no different than spreading communism by force, spreading Islam by force, or any other political system by force. Spreading ideology is not the proper purpose of war. If you must use force to convince someone that your way is the right way for them to go, you are not very effective at getting your ideas across, and it just may be that your way is NOT the right way for them to go.

agreed

I personally believe they should have gone in, erased the Taliban

NEWS : Taliban opened office in Qatar. It is not good for US govt to erase it , but it is better to expand it for divide and conquer or for war against terrorism.

but NEVER tell them how to live within their own nation

I agree with most of the things as much as I could understand.

thank you for replying.

peace.

Originally posted by harvib
reply to post by nenothtu

 

I'm sorry. That was entirely lost on me. I lost no freedom. I went down to the station with the nice policeman, signed a paper, walked right back out, and trounced him on my day in court.

You lost no freedom??

Wrong. You inherently lost freedom when you were arrested:

Arrest: A seizure or forcible restraint; an exercise of the power to deprive a person of his or her liberty...

I lost no more freedom than I do when I go to work, mow my yard, or or go grocery shopping. As a matter of fact, I lost LESS freedom being arrested than I do in any of those efforts, because it took far less time. Some things just have to be dealt with, and engaging your responsibilities rather than running away from them is not a "loss of freedom", it's an exercise of it. Because of my engagement there, and the scraping the cop got in court, he's far less likely to attempt such bone-headed efforts with any one else.

Freedom does not come without the conflict which is some times required to maintain it. Quite the contrary, the ability to engage in that conflict is a large part of what it means to be free.

I hope I don't come across as rude but I truly believe that you have no concept of freedom. You mistake "privilege" for "freedom". You are unqualified to judge whether or not Americans have any freedoms because you have no concept of it.

I believe you exhibit a phenomena that is similar to Stockholm syndrome or battered wife syndrome where you identify and apologize for you captors and/ or abusers.

I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree. Freedom isn't free, it must be maintained, sometimes at an inconvenience or a cost. My freedom carries with it responsibilities. Freedom without responsibility isn't freedom at all - it's living by someone else's leave, or a their expense, or both.

I'm well aware of the difference between privilege and freedom. I rarely ever deal in privileges. They are a complete waste of time.

I have provided you with examples of people being arrested for using what you call a "freedom" yet you have justified that arrest as the individuals not exhibiting "common sense" or being offensive. However you then go on to admit that no one should be arrested for failure to use "common sense" or for offending another. It makes me wonder how you reconcile those arrest in your mind. Yet, somehow, you seem to.

Stomping on the rights of others isn't what I consider "freedom". Again, failure to exercise "common sense", or being offensive are not reasons for arrest, nor were those the things the involved individuals were arrested for. No amount of trying to twist out of that fact will falsify it. They were arrested for actions they took, not for being stupid. Being stupid often leads to stupid actions, but it is NOT the action itself. That requires extra effort, for which they earn their "reward".

Your proclamations are reminiscent of those of an ancient Roman Citizen. Their legal system had the concept of a "free citizen" and therefore the layman quite arrogantly professed how free they were, seemingly never to realize that the term was an oxymoron. One would be hard pressed to find a culture that was more regulated and controlled or one were the citizenship was more convinced of falsely believing they were free. It's a brilliant system and some things never change.

"None are so hopelessly enslaved as those who falsely believe they are free." -Goethe

edit on 19-2-2012 by harvib because: correct typo

"Freedom" is not the right to stomp on the rights of others. Freedom is the right to do as you want, so long as you are not infringing thee rights of others and attempting to negate their freedom, Goethe notwithstanding.

If your freedom allows you to infringe the freedom of others, what is to keep them from infringing yours? That's not "freedom" at all.

Originally posted by hmdphantom
reply to post by nenothtu

 

These are your views and your views of boundary of freedom. You drew boundaries for the freedom as you liked , I draw them as I like. So , there will be different view , different boundaries , then there will be different constitution.

So , just because we have chosen different boundaries , you can not blame us for choosing them.

I'm not blaming Iran for setting her own boundaries, I'm saying that when they try to expand those boundaries at the expense of the boundaries of others, they should expect that not to go very smoothly. I also expect that Iran should respect the boundaries they set for themselves.

The US should do the same in all those respects, for we are not above honor - although there are many people here devoid of it, and more are being raised every day.

I personally believe they should have gone in, erased the Taliban

NEWS : Taliban opened office in Qatar. It is not good for US govt to erase it , but it is better to expand it for divide and conquer or for war against terrorism.

I wasn't speaking for the US government, I was speaking my own opinion. In my opinion, the Taliban should have been erased. There is no "conquer" in any war against any thing without the conquest. If they don't conquer the Taliban, it is a failure. There is no reason to divide without the followup conquest.

I've never made the claim that the US government is composed of strategic geniuses. The mis-prosecution of the Afghan war should be evidence enough of that failure. They snatched defeat from the jaws of victory early on in the war when they sent conventional forces in to an unconventional war.

One uses a hammer to drive nails, a screwdriver to tighten screws,. a wrench to twist bolts, and unconventional warriors in an unconventional war. The right tool for the right job.

Originally posted by nenothtu

Originally posted by theBigToe

100% Agreement. Free speech is a universal right and should be held to that in all corners of the world.

Tread carefully - you are in great danger of causing me to wax philosophical!

I believe all true rights are "universal" in nature - they exist everywhere, everywhen, for everyone.

Agreed as well. Our founding fathers were on the same page as yourself. Notice they did not state that our rights originated with government, but instead demanded that the United States of America always recognize those "inalienable rights" endowed by our creator.

Our constitution was considered dangerous and radical at the time for that distinction...imagine a world dominated by Kings and Dictators who had virtually no limitation on thier powers, leading world powers like England and Japan who literally claimed thier rulers where given authority over the people by God....and here is this new country, in 1776, declaring that the people rule over government...that thier rights do not originate from government..."endowed by our creator"...one of my favorite phrases...it was a radical declaration at the time and remains a radical idea to the remaining tyrants in the world.

Originally posted by hmdphantom
Because human beings want to live in cities and they form societies , so how can we get our rules for that society ?

I think that people are the ones who should decide where to get their rules from. So , are you saying that we have to get our rules from where you get your rules ?

We get our rules (Laws) from the people....not a "Religious Counsel", Not an Imam, Not a Dictator.

Our (USA) rules should not apply to Iran. The Iranian people should determine thier own laws for society and as long as Iranians are arrested, beaten, killed, tortured, raped etc. for voicing thier opinions that is not possible.

You continue to confuse the idea that the "West" is interested in exporting our version of "Freedom".

..Those rights are not ours to export....the people (anywhere in the world) are "endowed by thier creator"...God, Allah, Nature, The holy Spagetti Monster...whatever.

The Arab Spring is not some infection of "Western" values. It is evolution. Freedom is a natural state, something every child the world over is born with and any government that denies it's premise will eventually crumble. Call it nature, call it the will of Allah...call it what you like. It sprouts from "the people", not the West and whether it be days, months or years...the dictators of the middle east will fall. The "Arab Spring" has started.

Originally posted by Indigo5

Originally posted by hmdphantom
Because human beings want to live in cities and they form societies , so how can we get our rules for that society ?

I think that people are the ones who should decide where to get their rules from. So , are you saying that we have to get our rules from where you get your rules ?

We get our rules (Laws) from the people....not a "Religious Counsel", Not and Imam, Not a Dictator.

Our (USA) rules should not apply to Iran. The Iranian people should determine thier own laws for society and as long as Iranians are arrested, beaten, killed, tortured, raped etc. for voicing thier opinions that is not possible.

You continue to confuse the idea that the "West" is interested in exporting our version of "Freedom".

..Those rights are not ours to export....the people (anywhere in the world) are "endowed by thier creator"...God, Allah, Nature, The holy Spagetti Monster...whatever.

The Arab Spring is not some infection of "Western" values. It is evolution. Freedom is a natural state, something every child the world over is born with and any government that denies it's premise will eventually crumble. Call it nature, call it the will of Allah...call it what you like. It sprouts from "the people", not the West and whether it be days, months or years...the dictators of the middle east will fall. The "Arab Spring" has started.

edit on 20-2-2012 by Indigo5 because: (no reason given)

Those people didn't have any idea before Iranian Islamic revolution.

get informed

Like you said Arab spring , look out , we are not Arabs.

Too much education , I know.

Look back at your posts on this thread , you are not a worthy person to answer.

Originally posted by hmdphantom

Originally posted by Indigo5

Originally posted by hmdphantom
Because human beings want to live in cities and they form societies , so how can we get our rules for that society ?

I think that people are the ones who should decide where to get their rules from. So , are you saying that we have to get our rules from where you get your rules ?

We get our rules (Laws) from the people....not a "Religious Counsel", Not and Imam, Not a Dictator.

Our (USA) rules should not apply to Iran. The Iranian people should determine thier own laws for society and as long as Iranians are arrested, beaten, killed, tortured, raped etc. for voicing thier opinions that is not possible.

You continue to confuse the idea that the "West" is interested in exporting our version of "Freedom".

..Those rights are not ours to export....the people (anywhere in the world) are "endowed by thier creator"...God, Allah, Nature, The holy Spagetti Monster...whatever.

The Arab Spring is not some infection of "Western" values. It is evolution. Freedom is a natural state, something every child the world over is born with and any government that denies it's premise will eventually crumble. Call it nature, call it the will of Allah...call it what you like. It sprouts from "the people", not the West and whether it be days, months or years...the dictators of the middle east will fall. The "Arab Spring" has started.

edit on 20-2-2012 by Indigo5 because: (no reason given)

Those people didn't have any idea before Iranian Islamic revolution.

get informed

You should reedit the title to, "Why is the U.S. so angry at the Iran?"

"Mad" means insane. Please dont pick up the bad habits of those that speak English and dont know how to speak it properly.

BTW the U.S. will ALWAYS be superior to Iran.

We dont publicly execute people over fairy tales here and then hit the play button on the "ALLAH PRAISE ALLAH" soundtrack that you all party to while people are dangling there hanging from a rope over a crowd.

Rofl

Originally posted by theBigToe

Originally posted by hmdphantom

Originally posted by Indigo5

Originally posted by hmdphantom
Because human beings want to live in cities and they form societies , so how can we get our rules for that society ?

I think that people are the ones who should decide where to get their rules from. So , are you saying that we have to get our rules from where you get your rules ?

We get our rules (Laws) from the people....not a "Religious Counsel", Not and Imam, Not a Dictator.

Our (USA) rules should not apply to Iran. The Iranian people should determine thier own laws for society and as long as Iranians are arrested, beaten, killed, tortured, raped etc. for voicing thier opinions that is not possible.

You continue to confuse the idea that the "West" is interested in exporting our version of "Freedom".

..Those rights are not ours to export....the people (anywhere in the world) are "endowed by thier creator"...God, Allah, Nature, The holy Spagetti Monster...whatever.

The Arab Spring is not some infection of "Western" values. It is evolution. Freedom is a natural state, something every child the world over is born with and any government that denies it's premise will eventually crumble. Call it nature, call it the will of Allah...call it what you like. It sprouts from "the people", not the West and whether it be days, months or years...the dictators of the middle east will fall. The "Arab Spring" has started.

edit on 20-2-2012 by Indigo5 because: (no reason given)

Those people didn't have any idea before Iranian Islamic revolution.

get informed

You should reedit the title to, "Why is the U.S. so angry at the Iran?"

"Mad" means insane. Please dont pick up the bad habits of those that speak English and dont know how to speak it properly.

BTW the U.S. will ALWAYS be superior to Iran.

We dont publicly execute people over fairy tales here and then hit the play button on the "ALLAH PRAISE ALLAH" soundtrack that you all party to while people are dangling there hanging from a rope over a crowd.

Rofl

I see proofs.

Or you have not slept well ?

My advice : don't project your illusions anywhere you want , think first.

The title is what I have decided whether you like it or not.

lol Go ahead and stick to whatever kind of english makes it easier for you to project your thoughts with coherence because I cant understand anything youve just said here.

i sleep very well after a good xanax.

whats a xanax?

id give you some but then khamenei would have you sentenced to death for a drug offense.

reply to post by hmdphantom


"Arab Spring" was a reference to geography, not ethnicity.

You can call it a "Persian Spring" if it that is less offensive? Or do you prefer the regionally specific "Green Revolution"?

Either way it is comming to Iran. Days, weeks, months...But it is comming.
Freedom is not a policy or a political opinion, not a nuance of culture. It is a human instinct. It is as natural as the tides.

Originally posted by hmdphantom
After pages of constructive debate about freedom , It is what a short sighted person does to take this off-topic and lead the debate wherever heshe wants

You were off-topic from the beginning.

edit on 20/2/12 by hmdphantom because: (no reason given)

Those images above ...of your fellow Iranians, the people you described earlier as "emotional" and manipulated by western media and as getting "what they deserved" when your government brutalized them...they are calling for freedom.

And if you think that is "off topic" then you still don't understand the topic of your own OP.

reply to post by Indigo5


That's not the first time I've been associated with "radical thought" - I believe DHS has the same notion of folks like me, but in a less favorable light.

There has been a disturbing tendency on the part of Americans over the past several years to attempt to convert "rights" into government -issued "privileges". I've noticed a decided shift in that sort of thought just over the course of my life time. That would seem to be a source of the confusion - people increasingly thinking that their rights depend on the good pleasure of another agent.

The key words there are "thought" and "thinking".

Now, it could be argued, and argued very strongly, that the rights a people have extend only as far as they are willing to exercise them, and that if they delegate that authority to another agent, then the other is de facto in charge of their rights. That in no way eliminates or "takes" their rights, but if they believe so, then the net effect is the same. The fact remains, however, that those rights are still there and intact, but lying dormant from disuse. They can be taken back up again at any time, if people only realize that.

There is no stronger prison than the one that may exist between one's ears, and be guarded by none but one's self. When they convince people that their rights are government issued privileges, they make of those people their very own jailers, and so long as they can keep them convinced of that, no escape is possible.

If, however, the veil of that illusion is ever pierced, all hell breaks loose.

Originally posted by Indigo5

Originally posted by hmdphantom
After pages of constructive debate about freedom , It is what a short sighted person does to take this off-topic and lead the debate wherever heshe wants

You were off-topic from the beginning.

edit on 20/2/12 by hmdphantom because: (no reason given)

Those images above ...of your fellow Iranians, the people you described earlier as "emotional" and manipulated by western media and as getting "what they deserved" when your government brutalized them...they are calling for freedom.

And if you think that is "off topic" then you still don't understand the topic of your own OP.

edit on 20-2-2012 by Indigo5 because: (no reason given)

edit on 20-2-2012 by Indigo5 because: (no reason given)

This thread argues about freedom in America and if you could understand what I am trying to say , you wouldn't bring it to this point that Iran seems to suffer the same problem.

You just got me wrong and couldn't get a clue about the real destination of this thread.

Yet , you continue the childish argument "my dad is taller than yours".

read my posts before sending reply on the 9th page of the thread.

post by hmdphantom

post by hmdphantom

You miss lots of points :

America is still the place where you can post this OP without getting arrested and even be protected in the constitution for doing so

post by Indigo5

You guys crack me up. You do realize that Iran has a fully operational Online Propaganda machine aimed at the west? Teams of posters tasked who post all day long on ATS and a hundred other forums?

Hey hmdphantom...prove me wrong...how about in the spirit of objectivity you provide a bullet point list outlining everything that is wrong with the current Iranian government and thier leaders? Or are they perfect?

post by Indigo5

Just like other arrogant people here who think they are living in the center of the earth , and every one is trying to dictate propaganda on them . You have propaganda illusion.

Differing opinions voiced publicly, even dishonest ones, have an inherent value and virtue because they spur discourse and debate in a free democracy.

If the corporate driven media lies to the public, a competitor will confront them on the lie.

If no large media confronts them on the lie, then one of the thousands of smaller, interent news outlets will.

And if a free American chooses to look and find the truth, that truth is always available.

In places like Iran, bloggers, protestors, artists are imprisoned for speaking against what the government guided media reports.

The very fact that you pretend to be unaware of the distinction speaks volumes as to your motives.

post by Indigo5

You just want to believe the lies flowing in your MSM ? then why bother coming to ATS ?

Just turn on the TV and let the propaganda into your mind.

conclusion

you are just a scared arrogant person who is terrified to know about the facts other than the MSM provides.

And you have not been educated because you just search google to get what you want. (to get informed about what my username means)

And at the same time that you are not educated , you just want to proof the opposite by insisting what your TV tells you.

Or maybe TV has already educated you ?

And me ?

I don't care a fig about what you want accuse me on this website.

Originally posted by hmdphantom

You just got me wrong and couldn't get a clue about the real destination of this thread.

Oh...I understand your intended "destination" of this thread, but in a free forum of opinions the destination is not yours to dictate.

Originally posted by hmdphantom
You just want to believe the lies flowing in your MSM ? then why bother coming to ATS ?

Just turn on the TV and let the propaganda into your mind.

 

conclusion

you are just a scared arrogant person who is terrified to know about the facts other than the MSM provides.

And you have not been educated because you just search google to get what you want.

And at the same time that you are not educated , you just want to proof the opposite by insisting what your TV tells you.

Which is it? Am I corrupted by TV? MSM? the Internet? ATS?

If those are all invalid and corrupted sources of information then where oh where should I look?

If only we had something like a "Ministry of Truth"!

Originally posted by hmdphantom

Before the whole velvet revolution planned by the PTB , we had much freedom in internet in Iran.

But after they showed their intentions and their dirty games , Iranian government changed it's stance about Internet and media.

There is no democracy world wide. People are always affected by TV and in TV they trust. ( and some in the internet ).

Democracy is a lie when people are told who to choose.( by the media)

Here are your talking points thus far...let me know if you'd like me to cite posts to support the same..

TV/MSM....tools of The West/NWO/PTB....Justifiably oppressed by the Iranian Government.

Twitter, Facebook, Internet....tools of the The West/PTB/NWO justifiably oppressed by the Iranian government.

* I imagine a list of words and acronyms like PTB and NWO sitting beside your keyboard, meant to appeal to folks on boards like ATS...how unsophisticated you must imagine people to be. Thus your repeated use of the word "arrogant", folks often look to bait others with labels that they feel personally vulnerable too. They mistakenly assume that others are just like them and have the same weaknesses and sensitivities.

Protestors in Iran...emotional, manipulated by the West, a purported minority deserving of oppression by a purported majority, influenced by the Internet and Western MSM, assisted by foriegn infidels/mercenaries etc. and deserving of the brutalities that the Iranian government inflicted on them.

Lastly and with great irony...Americans have no freedom, were responsible for 9-11 along with Israel (who has no right to exist) and we should feel shame and despair....We have no freedom.

These are consistent themes that I have seen repeatedly espoused by the failing Iranian government.

I do believe the internet is used for propaganda purposes, and your attempt here is a great example, but the nature of the internet, which allows millions of folks like myself who live in a free country to voice thier opinions and challenge that propaganda makes it a poor medium for government sponsored BS.

Again...the OP is your doing, the "destination" of this thread is not. That is freedom. You will one day understand the word. It is a messy, living thing, just like the human race, but stunning in it's fundemental beauty all the same.

Perhaps advise your government to stick to local broadcasting? For whatever little time they have left.

reply to post by Indigo5

Here are your talking points thus far...let me know if you'd like me to cite posts to support the same..

TV/MSM....tools of The West/NWO/PTB....Justifiably oppressed by the Iranian Government.

Twitter, Facebook, Internet....tools of the The West/PTB/NWO justifiably oppressed by the Iranian government.

* I imagine a list of words and acronyms like PTB and NWO sitting beside your keyboard, meant to appeal to folks on boards like ATS...how unsophisticated you must imagine people to be. Thus your repeated use of the word "arrogant", folks often look to bait others with labels that they feel personally vulnerable too. They mistakenly assume that others are just like them and have the same weaknesses and sensitivities.

Protestors in Iran...emotional, manipulated by the West, a purported minority deserving of oppression by a purported majority, influenced by the Internet and Western MSM, assisted by foriegn infidels/mercenaries etc. and deserving of the brutalities that the Iranian government inflicted on them.

Lastly and with great irony...Americans have no freedom, were responsible for 9-11 along with Israel (who has no right to exist) and we should feel shame and despair....We have no freedom.

These are consistent themes that I have seen repeatedly espoused by the failing Iranian government.

I do believe the internet is used for propaganda purposes, and your attempt here is a great example, but the nature of the internet, which allows millions of folks like myself who live in a free country to voice thier opinions and challenge that propaganda makes it a poor medium for government sponsored BS.

Again...the OP is your doing, the "destination" of this thread is not. That is freedom. You will one day understand the word. It is a messy, living thing, just like the human race, but stunning in it's fundemental beauty all the same.

Perhaps advise your government to stick to local broadcasting? For whatever little time they have left.

There it is again. you want to show you are educated but you are nothing but a hammer head that can not think other possibilities.

1 . try to be a just judge.
2 . read my reply again.

post by hmdphantom

Again...the OP is your doing, the "destination" of this thread is not. That is freedom. You will one day understand the word. It is a messy, living thing, just like the human race, but stunning in it's fundemental beauty all the same.

It is not my first time to see people acting much stupidly to show god granted them freedom.

I understand your intended "destination" of this thread, but in a free forum of opinions the destination is not yours to dictate.

I know , so go get every where you want.

I'm not following.

To follow an arrogant persons leads to my arrogance.

+ the one who is not willing to listen can not be helped.

This thread is like a beautiful place that people have made it possible to get here. I won't let a mosquito ruin my peace here.

In this video Jordan Maxwell speaks about the Soviet Union symbol, which is a communist symbol, and how Communism still exists in these days and dominates the world.

He is pointing out that "The dawn of a new day" is becoming increasingly clear in America and around the world. Also, he explains the meaning of the statue in front of the Rockefeller Center in America, which represents Prometheus.

New York will be the capital of this "New World" which they wish to create. This city represents the Empire State..... Source of synopsis: mysticalmusingsandpolitics.blogspot.com...

Pretty much sums the video up and I personally think Mr. Maxwell brings up many valid points of interest.



Yes this is a long video.

But, how much time do you spend on your cell, ipod, Xbox, Twilight and Harry Potter Novels and movies that have no significance or importance in your life......................they call it "entertainment" but what "entertainment" really is - is distracting you from being led to the slaughter house.

Humanity has been so easily fooled, so easily manipulated and distracted.

We are still killing each other (not for liberty and freedom, there is none anywhere) - but for the oil and artifacts.

We are still arguing about the many names of "God".

Divide and conquer.................now the 50m questions is who are the wizards behind the curtain in this land of OZ?

reply to post by ofhumandescent

now the 50m questions is who are the wizards behind the curtain in this land of OZ?

That is really hard to answer.

But there are always plans and methods to get informed about content of the black box.

Write down all the inputs , outputs of the device.

Then try to make connection.

Provide more input-output , your model will be more similar to reality of the content.

But, how much time do you spend on your cell, ipod, Xbox, Twilight and Harry Potter Novels and movies that have no significance or importance in your life......................they call it "entertainment" but what "entertainment" really is - is distracting you from being led to the slaughter house.

Humanity has been so easily fooled, so easily manipulated and distracted.

The fact is that there is no clear slaughterer , people of some land make plans and invade people of another land.

But when we see truly , the third one takes the beneficiaries(who is behind the curtain)

Maybe it is hard for you to get clues about the reality in Middle East.

But it is not hard for me. There are sheep here which some killers always plan to kill them.

But who can help the sheep except his own ?