What is the purpose of an everlasting punishment in hell?

As far as a purpose goes, from a socialist perspective, I always thought it was to provide a decent living for Satan and his demons.

I mean we don't really need it in theology, but making so many pitch-fork wielding demons unemployed is just asking for trouble.

So we should all give the local pastor or vicar a little more money.
That will keep the furnaces burning, and the unspeakable horrors going.

It might not require a degree from Harvard, but it's a dirty job, and somebody has to do it.

Originally posted by halfoldman
As far as a purpose goes, from a socialist perspective, I always thought it was to provide a decent living for Satan and his demons.

I mean we don't really need it in theology, but making so many pitch-fork wielding demons unemployed is just asking for trouble.

So we should all give the local pastor or vicar a little more money.
That will keep the furnaces burning, and the unspeakable horrors going.

It might not require a degree from Harvard, but it's a dirty job, and somebody has to do it.

I have never seen demons wielding pitchforks, but ok, we'll go with that. I don't have to give anyone money to convince me that some people have been so bad in their lives, destroying others without consideration or respect to their lives, that they don't deserve hell for the hell they brought into the life of someone else. But ok, we'll go with your interpretation because bad people don't deserve any punishment.

If there is a hell, there must be a heaven. It just gives people hope and comfort to know there is a place for them after all the hell they have been through in their lives. Just to say it all ends with the grave and there is no more, then no one is punished and no one is comforted. But ok, we'll go with yours, no one deserves any comfort for the hell they received in their lives.

Children today are dying from famine and war, and yet no one considers they are deserving of some comfort for the misery bad people have put them through. Instead of arguing over heaven and hell, why don't we all do something now to deliver people from the terrible things they are going through. Let's give our money and resources to end child hunger and abuse. The reason people don't accept there is a heaven or hell is that they have never seen truly the devastation in the lives of others and dismiss them as though they don't even exist. These same people sit in their warm homes, in front of their nifty computers and type out diatribes against religion and demand the religious do something, and yet they are not willing to do anything themselves.

Such disrespect for the rest of humanity to be so hypocritical.

reply to post by WarminIndy

Oh no, I certainly believe in karma - a just measure of "hell" for those who cause it.

But that's not how Christianity sees it.
Hell is for those who aren't saved, since everyone is born into original sin.
So that should scare you into their faith.
But they also claim their religion is all about love.
So hell shouldn't be necessary if that was true.
Still, hell serves a function: if the carrot of "love" doesn't work then get the "stick" of eternal hell.

I don't know what demons you've seen, but the way most Christians saw them for over 1000 years is with a pitchfork, which was possibly taken from Poseidon's trident, when aspects of various old pagan gods were recombined to invent the devil.
It also serves a practical function: it's what the demons poke into the posterior of people in hell to make them jump into the fire, or boiling kettle, or whatever psychopathic gore one can come up with.
But obviously they don't all have pitchforks, if the scary hell narratives on ATS are anything to go by.
They've modernized a bit.

Of course that doesn't mean that for many Christians it is about love, or that religion is always bad.
Most people are morally complex, and in a just universe they deserve neither eternal heaven or hell.
But in a literal reading hell does have a purpose - it's where people go who haven't accepted a certain interpretation of religion.
It exits in culture as long as resources are given to spread that ideology.

Originally posted by halfoldman
reply to post by WarminIndy

 

Oh no, I certainly believe in karma - a just measure of "hell" for those who cause it.

But that's not how Christianity sees it.
Hell is for those who aren't saved, since everyone is born into original sin.
So that should scare you into their faith.
But they also claim their religion is all about love.
So hell shouldn't be necessary if that was true.
Still, hell serves a function: if the carrot of "love" doesn't work then get the "stick" of eternal hell.

I don't know what demons you've seen, but the way most Christians saw them for over 1000 years is with a pitchfork, which was possibly taken from Poseidon's trident, .

edit on 7-12-2011 by halfoldman because: (no reason given)

The concept of hell and hades existed long before Christianity as the concept of a place of punishment and another of reward is found in ancient cultures. Just because those religions do not call them hell and heaven does not mean the concept is different.

I was never taught the pitchfork wielding demons and devil poking people in the rear, but throughout my life I have seen too many things and have seen both angels and demons. Most often they do their work through people. And I am certain that every person has seen them, but not realizing or understanding. When one learns to see beyond their own limited view, they will see things they never realized before.

Here are some examples...
European

The hells of Europe include Breton Mythology's "Anaon", Celtic Mythology's "Uffern", Slavic mythology's "Peklo", the hell of Sami mythology and Finnish "tuonela" ("manala").

Asia

The hells of Asia include Bagobo Mythology's “Gimokodan” and Ancient Indian mythology's “Kalichi"

Africa

African hells include Haida Mythology's “Hetgwauge” and the hell of Swahili Mythology (kuzimu).

Oceania

The Oceanic hells include Samoan Mythology's “O le nu'u-o-nonoa” and the hells of Bangka Mythology and Caroline Islands Mythology.

Native American

The hells of the Americas include Aztec Mythology's “Mictlan”, Inuit mythology's “Adlivun” and Yanomamo Mythology's “Shobari Waka”. In Maya mythology , Xibalbá is the dangerous underworld of nine levels ruled by the demons Vucub Caquix and Hun Came. The road into and out of it is said to be steep, thorny and very forbidding. Metnal is the lowest and most horrible of the nine Hells of the underworld, ruled by Ah Puch. Ritual healers would intone healing prayers banishing diseases to Metnal. Much of the Popol Vuh describes the adventures of the Maya Hero Twins in their cunning struggle with the evil lords of Xibalbá. The Aztecs believed that the dead traveled to Mictlan, a neutral place found far to the north. There was also a legend of a place of white flowers, which was always dark, and was home to the gods of death, particularly Mictlantecutli and his spouse Mictlantecihuatl, which means literally "lords of Mictlan". The journey to Mictlan took four years, and the travelers had to overcome difficult tests, such as passing a mountain range where the mountains crashed into each other, a field where the wind carried flesh-scraping knives, and a river of blood with fearsome jaguars.

The concept of hell did not begin with Christianity.

reply to post by WarminIndy

Oh yes, this is certainly true, a similar concept to hell exists in many cultures.
That would have been a great point in the opening post to clarify that the thread is not only about Christian theology (as is the case in most discussions on hell on ATS).

However, it should be remembered that despite certain similarities, there are also differences in cross-cultural understandings of hell. A lot of the sources on those cultures would be Christian missionaries, explorers or anthropologists who understood other cultures through their world-view.
A lot of those cultures were also not monolithic, and had various sects devoted to various gods (Swahili, for example, is a trade language in East Africa based on Arabic, and is used by a range of different cultures).
Many of those cultures also believed in reincarnation, and hellish states or places were not permanent, although outside Asia, Western research on this has been rare until recently.
So hell in that sense would be more similar to a kind of purgatory, where bad karma is worked off, or a particular crime is punished, or a bad state of consciousness is improved, until the soul can continue it's evolution.

One kind of "hell" in African culture in SA is facilitated by the living.
It is very important to be remembered by the living community as an "ancestor" after death, and they have various rituals devoted to pleasing the ancestors.
However a very bad or selfish person might not be remembered (since they would make poor intermediaries between the living and the spiritual world), and that is a kind of true death or starved, hellish state.

What could get one into hell could vary between cultures.
For some it was being a coward on the battle-field.
The metaphors to describe hell also varied.
So ultimately their function was to encourage qualities that were considered good and necessary in society.
I'm not sure to what extent people went to hell simply for not believing a certain doctrine or interpretation.
In Eastern religions like Buddhism and Hinduism the material world was itself a kind of hell governed by temporary illusion and false attachments, and spiritual practices were a way to escape the cycle of death and rebirth.
Living an animalistic life of mating and defending means you can get the body of an animal or plant, and that also sounds highly unpleasant, especially considering factory farming and animal butchery.
So they might not have an eternal hell, but they also have frightening consequences to scare you into the fold.
However, the most successful religions today remain Christianity and Islam, and they have the scariest versions of eternal hell, and I don't think that's a coincidence.

Originally posted by halfoldman
reply to post by WarminIndy

 

However, the most successful religions today remain Christianity and Islam, and they have the scariest versions of eternal hell, and I don't think that's a coincidence.

I don't know, that South American one seems pretty scary to me. I don't think I would like to have to walk across those daggers like that. I think the Viking religion was about the cowardice on the battlefield, but that excludes women as they didn't engage in raiding like the men.

I'm thinking on how the theories the French philosopher Michel Foucault could be applied to this topic, particularly on his concepts of "discipline and punish".
When madness was first constructed as a condition at the beginning of the Enlightenment, it was no longer a case of punishing the mad for specific crimes, like begging or being disruptive.
The "insane" became a new sub-species of man, to be confined in asylums and disciplined.
In a sense that discipline for the sake of discipline became the marker between madness and "rational" civilization.

So, to me hell is a bit like that.
It is the threat of eternal punishment to discipline the believer.
Like the panopticon prison with its all seeing central tower, or the ubiquitous modern security camera, God was always watching your every move, and since God was the origin of the divine rights of kings and rulers, God became the eyes and ears of state power.

Protestant Christianity arrived with a very unpleasant work ethic, and restrictions on all forms of fun.
Although American-style Evangelical Christianity is now popular, when I grew up Calvinism was still the virtual state religion for whites in SA, and it served the superstructure very well.
A confession of faith and a baptism were not a guarantee that you could avoid hell.
You had to check yourself for sinful acts and thoughts all the time, unless you didn't take it seriously (which was then best kept to yourself, since religious sedition and political sedition was very close, and rendered you a socially outcast "communist").

Earlier forms of bodies that demanded constant surveillance for the perceived production of a "healthy" work-force were the masturbating child, the sodomite, the Malthusian couple (who won't reproduce because of the economy) and the hysterical (rebellious) woman. In fact, a lot of religious posts on ATS still dwell on those essential issues, that went from sins to medical conditions, and with the new Christian fundamentalism, right back to being socially contaminating sins.

So hell serves to discipline the believer before an all-seeing God.
It serves no more purpose for those already damned and in hell, or almost certainly going to hell.
It is not a punishment, or a chance to reform in mainstream Christianity.
It is discipline by proxy.
It is discipline based on the concept that the justness of God demands punishment, so the first act of humble discipline is to accept Christ who was punished for your sins.
However, to stay in that system demands discipline simply because the system demands it.

In theocratic states it gives the state the power to punish the believer for his or her sin or crime, and that harsh punishment on earth was thought to save the soul from eternal damnation (so burning sinners at the stake or stoning them is actually doing them a favor - it was good and cleansing for the soul).

Thus, if your own conscience won't convict you, then you should thank the fellow believer who disciplines you and says, "Repent, or you're going to hell".
That discipline (sometimes still read from the pulpit) keeps the religious structure intact, and gives the believer a chance to turn or burn.
It's supernaturally political.

Originally posted by halfoldman
I'm thinking on how the theories the French philosopher Michel Foucault could be applied to this topic, particularly on his concepts of "discipline and punish".
When madness was first constructed as a condition at the beginning of the Enlightenment, it was no longer a case of punishing them for specific crimes, like begging or being disruptive.
The "insane" became a new sub-species of man, to be confined in asylums and disciplined.
In a sense that discipline for the sake of it became the marker between madness and "rational" civilization.

So, to me hell is a bit like that.
It is the threat of eternal punishment to discipline the believer.
Like the panopticon prison with its all seeing central tower, or the ubiquitous modern security camera, God was always watching your every move, and since God was the origin of the divine rights of kings and rulers, God became the eyes and ears of state power.

I am sure many leaders employed that same logic, but even Asian emperors did the same thing...under the name of The Mandate From Heaven. But when "Christian" leaders did that, it was not the fault of Christianity, but a person twisting it to fulfill their own twisted agenda.

Protestant Christianity arrived with a very unpleasant work ethic, and restrictions on all forms of fun.
Although American-style Evangelical Christianity is now popular, when I grew up Calvinism was still the virtual state religion for whites in SA, and it served the superstructure very well.

I don't know about that, I was not in a Calvinistic church. My family is 4 generations Pentecostal, and I am a third generation American on my dad's side, my mom's side was Nazarene and she was third generation on her dad's side. Her mother was Presbyterian, but we never went to church with her family as they also converted to Pentecostal 4 generations ago. The Calvinist doctrine is not something I am familiar with other than people I have met who believe in it.

Things about the Pentecostal faith that people might not know....

The Pentecostal movement is older than Catholicism, but many of the early church fathers practiced what we today call Pentecostal. The organization of Pentecostal churches began at the turn of the 20th century. But the practices were recognized and disregarded by main stream religions. Those people who we would now call evangelical Pentecostals preached during slave days and those preachers would actually go onto slave row at night time and the members would gather deep in the woods and when they felt the spirit move on them, they would put their heads in big pots to muffle the sounds.

The pentecostal movement was the first to have black and white members sitting together in churches. It was always accepting of all people, it was very socially accepting of any person of any social and economic class.

There is a difference in Calvinism and Pentecostalism, but as someone who grew up Pentecostal I can say this, Pentecostalism is an experience spread across denominational lines. When you hear someone say they are Pentecostal, it could simply mean they have had the experience, or the attend a church that attached the name to it.

Very interesting, and nowadays in SA a lot of churches refer to something "Pentecostal" in their teachings.
It's even a stream within the NGK (Nederlands Gereformeerde Kerk/Dutch reformed church).

However, while the NGK also has a very liberal stream, where hell is a just a lonely disconnection with God, and nobody here should judge on other faiths (in fact, some of their pastors say there is no hell), anything with "Pentecostalism" attached seems quite radically literal on a fiery hell.

From my experience with a charismatic mega-church, you can be saved, but if you willfully keep sinning and don't discipline yourself and repent, then you're still going to hell.

So it's really just the same.

They don't exactly preach you can do what like and be saved.

Originally posted by WarminIndy
[
It is one thing to say you do not believe in the Bible, or that you do not believe in God, but if you believe in something, is it your own soul? What determines for you that your soul is right? Is it because you believe that it is or because you say it is? What determines it?

The interpretation of man-based morality is very loose, to say the least. Moral relativism might work in theory but we all know there are universal laws about morality that we must not break. What happens when a person speaks a moral law, then twists it to fulfill their own lusts? That is moral relativism. And if morality is relative, the consequences would then be relative, but they are not. What determines the rightness of your soul?

Just what kind of moral guidance do you think a genocidal maniac who has his own son murdered can give you?
Why not just learn from a normal murderer instead of a God who is clearly insane?
There was no need for him to make such a disgyusting plan.

Regards
DL

Originally posted by FidelityMusic
reply to post by Greatest I am

 

God doesn't decide, WE decide with our actions, we choose what we do and not do. He just puts you where you yourself choose to be.

God does make all things perfect. Remember that humans were created in his image and have the will to choose who they are as a person, what they do, and what they become. From the day we learned of Good and Evil, and chose Evil, we lost a piece of that perfection as HUMAN BEINGS due to our actions, we were created perfect but became something else.. It's up to you to choose your actions in life and keep your soul in this HUMAN state as pure as possible so when you die you're pure and can enter Gods kingdom. If you choose otherwise, that is on you, not God. For you to put the blame on him and talk as if he was the bad one just shows you have a different perception from him and you're distant from him, you have no connection towards him whatsoever. That choice is solely up to you.

Deuteronomy 32:4
He is the Rock, his work is perfect: for all his ways are judgment: a God of truth and without iniquity, just and right is he.


Matthew 7:18
A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.

Originally posted by Vandalour

Originally posted by Greatest I am

Originally posted by Vandalour
In my reality we ALL go to heaven, no exceptions. we are all one
yes even Hitler and murders, our life essence go back to the creator
to us the creator is unknown, could it be alien ? sure.
Acording to people that died and come back, hell is not a "location" but a flash feeling of all the bad things you done in your life, that flashback could be some what "unpleasant" and could be the hell everybody is talking about.

Would an alien or otherworldly God be able to judge us correctly though?

Would you just trust it if indeed it was the genocidal bible God for instance?

Seems like I would take his judgment and tell him where to shove it.

Regards
DL

Ummm.. dont know if you read my post wrong, because I dont think there will be any "judgement" as I think we ALL go the "Heaven". Heaven as the source that created mankind, be it alien or robots

I read you right.

Why would you want to give the judging power over humans to some alien or robot?
We are animals. What other animal do you know who mimics some alien or outside force to guide them? None. Why shopuld we?

Regards
DL

Originally posted by WarminIndy
.

Children today are dying from famine and war, and yet no one considers they are deserving of some comfort for the misery bad people have put them through. Instead of arguing over heaven and hell, why don't we all do something now to deliver people from the terrible things they are going through. Let's give our money and resources to end child hunger and abuse. The reason people don't accept there is a heaven or hell is that they have never seen truly the devastation in the lives of others and dismiss them as though they don't even exist. These same people sit in their warm homes, in front of their nifty computers and type out diatribes against religion and demand the religious do something, and yet they are not willing to do anything themselves.

Such disrespect for the rest of humanity to be so hypocritical.

Not as hypocritical as a God who says he loves us all while letting and watching 6 million starve to death each year.

That is way more hypocritical than man would ever be.

You can blame man all you want and you would be right to do so but to not give the creator his due is hypocritical on your part.

Regards
DL

Originally posted by Greatest I am

Originally posted by Vandalour

Originally posted by Greatest I am

Originally posted by Vandalour
In my reality we ALL go to heaven, no exceptions. we are all one
yes even Hitler and murders, our life essence go back to the creator
to us the creator is unknown, could it be alien ? sure.
Acording to people that died and come back, hell is not a "location" but a flash feeling of all the bad things you done in your life, that flashback could be some what "unpleasant" and could be the hell everybody is talking about.

Would an alien or otherworldly God be able to judge us correctly though?

Would you just trust it if indeed it was the genocidal bible God for instance?

Seems like I would take his judgment and tell him where to shove it.

Regards
DL

Ummm.. dont know if you read my post wrong, because I dont think there will be any "judgement" as I think we ALL go the "Heaven". Heaven as the source that created mankind, be it alien or robots

I read you right.

Why would you want to give the judging power over humans to some alien or robot?
We are animals. What other animal do you know who mimics some alien or outside force to guide them? None. Why shopuld we?

Regards
DL

I still think you are reading my post wrong... Im just saying it COULD be aliens that created the human race long time ago, as a experiment, and when our body dies our lifeforce go back to the maker, im not saying it does im just saying it COULD be. my point it.. nobody knows for sure. yes we are "animals" like other animals.. but who to say if some / or same aliens created them in som lab way way back. just saying

Originally posted by Vandalour
[
I still think you are reading my post wrong... Im just saying it COULD be aliens that created the human race long time ago, as a experiment, and when our body dies our lifeforce go back to the maker, im not saying it does im just saying it COULD be. my point it.. nobody knows for sure. yes we are "animals" like other animals.. but who to say if some / or same aliens created them in som lab way way back. just saying

I was because I was looking for content and not just speculative nonsense.

Shall we discuss how the earth was # out by a turtle?

Regards
DL