the media cannot understand organic leaderless democracy

Originally posted by XPLodER
"outside" of govenment, when people of a society live and work and eat together where all are equal in that society and work togehter for the benifit of all people within that comunity the decitions that effect the comunity are put to a debate and a consensus vote (only for the society that lives together) on there wishes.
when the people of a open comunity solicite the opinion and vote on an equal basis within that comunity on issiues that effect that comunity.

Democracy, as you see it, exists already outside of Government. The free and self-governance of the individual allows such. I am not sure why you think it does not. Unfortunately and not sadly, you speak of a utopian form of Democracy in which all members of society all conform and preside by the same set of morals, desires and wants. I hate to burst your idealistic bubble, but that will never happen without the use of force and subjugation. Without fear and without absolute control, people will continue on their own paths to their desires and wants that will eventually stray from the parallel of linear political thinking that you have presented.

govenment by democray,
a govenment that functions on the precept that a majority opinion of elected officials is required to pass laws on the behalf of all the people the govenment represents

republic
america is a republic

A republic is a form of government in which the people, or some significant portion of them, have supreme control over the government and where offices of state are elected or chosen by elected people.[1][2] In modern times, a common simplified definition of a republic is a government where the head of state is not a monarch.[3][4] The word republic is derived from the Latin phrase res publica, which can be translated as "a public affair", and often used to describe a state using this form of government.

wiki

I asked what you thought -- not what Wikipedia thought. But alas, we will work with this. In the formation of the United States and up to the 17th Amendment, the United States of American was a Republican form of Government focusing on a Federal system in which both States and Central Governments retained a limited political power. After the 17th Amendment, the United States of American became a Representative Democracy, in which all representatives were elected directly by the People.

The last step, in which I wish to never see would be to abolish the Electoral College; the system that places a president into their position. Once that has happened, the United States of America, as far as governmental structure, will become a full-fledged Direct Democracy.

"yes" and i beleive it forms a barrior for "average" people to get heard

Then why is the clamor on Wall Street and not on Pennsylvania Avenue or in front of the Halls of Congress in which the very laws that have allowed such collusion to become legal were borne? This is a major wedge in many people that have kept an arms length of the OWS movement.

untill recently my country NEW ZEALAND practiced direct democracy called
first passed the post we are a democracy still
we are now using MMP or mixed member proportional

You were? Are you sure? I see you have a "direct democracy party" but none of your political or government structure history suggests that you were ever a Direct Democracy. A Constitutional Monarchy is what I have seen -- but please, if you have sources that I can refer to and read I would be happy to.

i do think presenting to a well conected politician that supports the effort will be far more fruitful,
but it great to know that "the people" can deliver bills for debate

"the people" shouldn't be taken lightly and in my opinion, placing them in quotes shows you hardly believe what I am saying. The People on the other hand, have all the inherent political power and only the powers in which the People have enumerated to said governmental body are valid.

It is not about presenting it to a "well connected" politican; it is about putting into place men and women of stout and steady principles that follow the Constitution (or in your case, the governmental document that your nation has agreed upon).

well you must admit there has been alot more political debate raging and everyone is comunicating

this is great for freedom and rights
it reminds us of what we could be

xploder

We are...not could. Could says you have acquiesced your Natural Rights and have allowed the State to reign supreme. May it be through collusion with business or repression of Rights -- what we could be is a dangerous statement that suggests that we have already lost.

Originally posted by ThirdEyeofHorus
This move toward direct democracy is just the Soros Socialism machine running in the background, as if by just hammering the message with the constant hammering away by OWS supporters, suddenly 310 million people are going to accept changing our Constitution from a Republic to Democratic Socialist State.

i have never heard of anyone but you suggest this..until now, here in this thread

It is a huge mistake to think that a direct democracy is going to make things better. We already have representative govt, where the public elects representatives who then go to work for us. If they are not representing us, it's because we were lulled to sleep thinking other people know how to do it better. But some kind of direct democracy voting on legislation just means now we are going to have mobs of people who want stuff but they won't have any knowledge of how to write legislation.

ok i now understand how most journalists get this wrong,
the people articulate what they want to see in ligislation,
they give it to the current politicians,
they ask them to debate the laws that people want to see.
simple no change in the form or type or functioning of the govenmental process.

We already have more legislation than we know what to do with. Now you want mobs of people writing and rewriting more legislation so that they can get stuff from the supposed 1 %.
This is just nuts people.

no the idea is all people get to decide what the responciable legislation is they "tell" their congress what they would llike to see and why

this lets the representitives KNOW what the people want, allows the legislator to craft a bill to achive the will of the people.

this is comapaird to the corparation written legislation that is passed by your representitives

Anyway OWS is really a minority.

a more acurite way of saying that is that is AT THE MOMENT OWS is a minority and do what ever you feel is required to dismiss the movement, IMHO i think there are many many more people who cannot afford to protest that support the movement in spirit

They are people who want stuff from govt.

from what i gather they want stuff done from congress LIKE PROSICUTE WALL STREET

That is the message I've heard over and over again. Just look at this girl who claims the police killed her unborn child with pepper spray. She wants to sue the police for 25 million bucks with no proof. If these are the kind of people who want to run the country from direct democracy, thanks but NO THANKS!

edit on 23-11-2011 by ThirdEyeofHorus because: (no reason given)

taking any one person and labeling them the whole movement is riduculaus

i dont acuse all american soilders of being sport killers because one guy was convicted

piece and light

xploder

Originally posted by XPLodER
wait untill the bills are written and handed to congress,
then you will see people on the steps of govenment

Now you are being obtuse. People have, since the creation of the United States of America, presented bills to Congress via a local representative. That is the novel idea of a Republic. This "direct" influence you seek is already in place here in the United States -- I am nearly on the brink of questioning your deep desire and dedication if you are from New Zealand.

The People, at the local levels of government has the largest influence and effect of change. That builds up and only so if the People are engaged from the roots; their local governments. From there, the People will "snowball" the effect with each passing of various levels of government.

Though I know it falls on deaf ears when people here think the popular vote matters in the United States....

you are very quick to judge (all in good time)

That is not a judgement, that is an observation and opinion. One made through various discussions and debates with various members that say they are supporters -- along with those that support but keep an arms length away.

acually at this stage it is about education of the issues and orginizing people to be proactive in the political arena

a well educated motivated population is the best defender of freedom i know

xploder

Education in what? I really hope you are not doing the educating because honestly and frankly; you are all over the place. Your understanding of Democracy and its effects are anemic and wishful -- akin to a Utopian society.

reply to post by XPLodER

i do think presenting to a well conected politician that supports the effort will be far more fruitful, but it great to know that "the people" can deliver bills for debate

Right so more special interests and lobbyist right? Hello?! not seeing your own hypocrisy there?

I guess its ok as long as it supports OWS tho right

reply to post by ThirdEyeofHorus


You're correct in supposing I have no knowledge of Illuminati bloodlines Guess I should add that to my list of things to look into.

Ok, I'd abridge your chain of control there in a few places. Most notably to put pelosi and reid as Potus handlers I'm sure not a fan of anyone who hobknobs with that dirty devil kissinger.

I guess what I'm trying to ask is how does soros or his operatives or whatever link into ows? probably more standard fare I'm ignorant of no doubt. thanks for patience

And no dude I wasn't labeling you looney. The idea of soros operatives just seemed funny to me. Like they'd be a real alphabet soup type entity. Sorry not trying to insult you

Originally posted by ThirdEyeofHorus
reply to post by XPLodER

 

Just who is going to be writing these bills? Is there something you know I don't? You got a secret lawyer who is gonna do all this? ACLU ? Soros operatives ? What? Or you're going to let that guy doing the mic check who just said to destroy Capitalism write these bills? Or how about that guy who wanted to set buildings on fire??? Hmmm?

edit on 23-11-2011 by ThirdEyeofHorus because: (no reason given)

as i have no afiliation with the group and are not privy to their descusions i can only speak from the viewpoint of how i personally understand the stuation from second hand information.

if you want ot point to indivduals and chastize the entire group for their actions that is your right,
but i dont condem the actions of one soilder sport killling and atribute that to the us army

please be fair

xploder

Originally posted by ManBehindTheMask
reply to post by XPLodER

 

i do think presenting to a well conected politician that supports the effort will be far more fruitful, but it great to know that "the people" can deliver bills for debate

Right so more special interests and lobbyist right? Hello?! not seeing your own hypocrisy there?

I guess its ok as long as it supports OWS tho right

This is exactly what is overlooked, conveniently, by advocates for this glorious Democracy. That the 'consensus' knows best and will deliver us into the light and all will live freely and without fear; that is until the majority decides it otherwise. Rule of Law? Hardly since such law can be changed on the whim of the 'consensus'.

reply to post by XPLodER


There is another thread about doing direct democracy, and various OWS supporters have individually recommended it. That suggests to me that there is a suggestion from the top of the movement which filters down to all the little groups, and because people individually say it, it appears to be "organic"

So check this out

Just the other day, he posted a feedback linking Gaddafi, Occupy Wall Street, Adbusters (the organization behind it all) and the professional, academic "anarchist" David Graeber who ties the various (apparently elitist) components of this enterprise together. The initial key is that Adbusters is apparently being funded in part by the same elitist foundation crowd that funds PBS and other power-elite promotional media, including the George Soros-funded Tides Foundation. InfoWars and the New American, among others, have reported on this funding stream.

Professional, academic "anarchist" David Graeber and his (Gaddafi-like) "direct democracy" ... provides us with the spectacle of supposedly leaderless groups making decisions that then through some sort of osmosis become the standard for the larger whole. Again, Graeber defines himself as an "anarchist," though some of his solutions, theoretically, might find a home in Marxist or socialist practices.

The emphasis on consensus is startling. It's very clever, too, a way of exercising dominance without seeming to. There are now Youtube videos in which you can see the chanting ritual that takes place between the supposedly leaderless groups and "moderators," leading to an eventual "decision." Matt Drudge (Drudge Report) posted one on his website last night: "VIDEO: 'Occupy Atlanta' in strange group chant, ritual ..." (See today's featured video)

So ... Graeber, who used to work for Yale and now works for another academic institution as a "social anthropologist" is the inspiration behind this theorizing. But there sure are questions about the implementation. We recently posted an interesting report from Webster G. Tarpley of alternative webblog Tarpley.net, as follows:Occupy Wall Street: Who Wants to Hijack the Movement? ... Eyewitness observers suggest that the deliberations of the general assembly are largely a diversion, and that real power is being increasingly concentrated in the hands of about 20 mysterious and anonymous individuals who appear to make up a kind of covert steering committee that pulls the strings on the general assembly, or else goes around it completely. The members of this cadre of mysterious operatives are not as young as the average demonstrator. The secret leadership is made up of people ranging in age from 25 to over 40, with the older ones occupying the key posts. Many of them appear to be active duty or recently retired military ...

thedailybell.com...

It is really naive to think that a few thousand people protesting suddenly came up with the idea for direct democracy and all these specific demands which are strikingly similar to the Democrat Party platform just by sleeping around in tents in the various parks but they all are just people and it's all just somehow real organic.

Originally posted by XPLodER

Originally posted by ThirdEyeofHorus
reply to post by XPLodER

 

Just who is going to be writing these bills? Is there something you know I don't? You got a secret lawyer who is gonna do all this? ACLU ? Soros operatives ? What? Or you're going to let that guy doing the mic check who just said to destroy Capitalism write these bills? Or how about that guy who wanted to set buildings on fire??? Hmmm?

edit on 23-11-2011 by ThirdEyeofHorus because: (no reason given)

as i have no afiliation with the group and are not privy to their descusions i can only speak from the viewpoint of how i personally understand the stuation from second hand information.

if you want ot point to indivduals and chastize the entire group for their actions that is your right,
but i dont condem the actions of one soilder sport killling and atribute that to the us army

please be fair

xploder

This is not about being fair. This is about seeing an agenda. But the current trend in Socialism is to agitate for "economic Justice and equality" even if it means stealing people's paychecks or cheating the public out of 25 million dollars while faking a miscarriage.

Anyway, you haven't really answered my question, which is who is going to write all these bills? The guy who just got home from work driving a forklift and opens a beer and watches football? Or these people camping out in tents who are going to free clinics to be tested for STDs?
Not only am I being truly fair and judicious, I am being realistic.
Also, I will mention that some of the protesters being interviewed have said that they want to "restore democracy" which is really interesting because we are a Representative Republic with democratic elections. They seem to think that getting a direct democracy is restoring a democracy they think we once had but don't anymore. So are these the kind of people you want running things and writing legislation when they don't know what our system is based on and has been since the Constitution was written?

Originally posted by ownbestenemy

Originally posted by XPLodER
wait untill the bills are written and handed to congress,
then you will see people on the steps of govenment

Now you are being obtuse. People have, since the creation of the United States of America, presented bills to Congress via a local representative. That is the novel idea of a Republic. This "direct" influence you seek is already in place here in the United States -- I am nearly on the brink of questioning your deep desire and dedication if you are from New Zealand.

i do not intend to be obtuse,
i desire to see the population of the greatest country in the world use their right to redress to challenge the inblence in society that is so obvious to me. weither you belive me or not what happens in america effects my country as well this is being made painfully obvious with your and our economic conditions.
OWS

The People, at the local levels of government has the largest influence and effect of change. That builds up and only so if the People are engaged from the roots; their local governments. From there, the People will "snowball" the effect with each passing of various levels of government.

well the remove insider trading bill only had 2 sponcers untill the media ran a story on it,
now there are 45 sponcers, maby the motivation of the OWS will also enhance the passage of bills that work for the people

Though I know it falls on deaf ears when people here think the popular vote matters in the United States....

i would like to hear your understanding of the poular vote and its implications.

That is not a judgement, that is an observation and opinion. One made through various discussions and debates with various members that say they are supporters -- along with those that support but keep an arms length away.

beautiful i love the fact that you are free to express your opinion on such an important topic and i respect your opinion.

Education in what? I really hope you are not doing the educating because honestly and frankly; you are all over the place. Your understanding of Democracy and its effects are anemic and wishful -- akin to a Utopian society.

no as i am not part of or speaking on behalf of or joined to or in any other way connected to any movement at all
i do not educate people or make dicisions.

this thread is my interpretation of what is confusing the media so much,
and from some of the responces in the thread i can now understand why media are so confused

as well as i have learned more about how your republic works


so in a sence i have been educated during the discusion

xp

reply to post by XPLodER


Ah so you are not American but you are recommending all this direct democracy stuff to us? Tres Interessant! This really explains why you are not aware of our Republican form of govt. If you are from somewhere like Iran, you will not understand that we already have Representative govt and not a tyrannical dictatorship. The question is whether our politicians are hearing us. Lobbyists in Washington have been given voice. If the effects of lobbyists are hated by people, how will it be when the cacophanic voices of many many people with little understanding are making outrageous demands based on what they think will suit them?
Let's take the example of the wild west, when it was common to hang criminals after a posse rounded them up. Or look at the history of the French Revolution where people can go to the guillotine because a group of people mobbed.
Mob Rule is what is really being espoused with the OWS movement. Maybe it works to depose a military leadership like Qaddafi or Mubarak, but I'm not too sure I want that.

Originally posted by ThirdEyeofHorus
reply to post by XPLodER

 

There is another thread about doing direct democracy, and various OWS supporters have individually recommended it. That suggests to me that there is a suggestion from the top of the movement which filters down to all the little groups, and because people individually say it, it appears to be "organic"

So check this out

Just the other day, he posted a feedback linking Gaddafi, Occupy Wall Street, Adbusters (the organization behind it all) and the professional, academic "anarchist" David Graeber who ties the various (apparently elitist) components of this enterprise together. The initial key is that Adbusters is apparently being funded in part by the same elitist foundation crowd that funds PBS and other power-elite promotional media, including the George Soros-funded Tides Foundation. InfoWars and the New American, among others, have reported on this funding stream.

Professional, academic "anarchist" David Graeber and his (Gaddafi-like) "direct democracy" ... provides us with the spectacle of supposedly leaderless groups making decisions that then through some sort of osmosis become the standard for the larger whole. Again, Graeber defines himself as an "anarchist," though some of his solutions, theoretically, might find a home in Marxist or socialist practices.

The emphasis on consensus is startling. It's very clever, too, a way of exercising dominance without seeming to. There are now Youtube videos in which you can see the chanting ritual that takes place between the supposedly leaderless groups and "moderators," leading to an eventual "decision." Matt Drudge (Drudge Report) posted one on his website last night: "VIDEO: 'Occupy Atlanta' in strange group chant, ritual ..." (See today's featured video)

So ... Graeber, who used to work for Yale and now works for another academic institution as a "social anthropologist" is the inspiration behind this theorizing. But there sure are questions about the implementation. We recently posted an interesting report from Webster G. Tarpley of alternative webblog Tarpley.net, as follows:Occupy Wall Street: Who Wants to Hijack the Movement? ... Eyewitness observers suggest that the deliberations of the general assembly are largely a diversion, and that real power is being increasingly concentrated in the hands of about 20 mysterious and anonymous individuals who appear to make up a kind of covert steering committee that pulls the strings on the general assembly, or else goes around it completely. The members of this cadre of mysterious operatives are not as young as the average demonstrator. The secret leadership is made up of people ranging in age from 25 to over 40, with the older ones occupying the key posts. Many of them appear to be active duty or recently retired military ...

thedailybell.com...

It is really naive to think that a few thousand people protesting suddenly came up with the idea for direct democracy and all these specific demands which are strikingly similar to the Democrat Party platform just by sleeping around in tents in the various parks but they all are just people and it's all just somehow real organic.

i would suggest you goto cryptyme and down load the white paper on dis creaditing wiki leaks,
they major point is that to acociate a movement to their worst enemy is a tactic,
cant prove nothing but it is a posability

xp

Originally posted by ThirdEyeofHorus
reply to post by XPLodER

 

Ah so you are not American but you are recommending all this direct democracy stuff to us? Tres Interessant!

blatent lie
i have never avocated for a direct democractic for of govenemnt for the usa
FALSE

re read what i have said

i do not wish to see any change in the form of govenemnt of any nation as self determination is key

try agin to put words in my mouth,
you missed and its on your face lol



xploder

reply to post by XPLodER


My material is not from wiki leaks or wikipedia even. I'm not sure what that would do for me?

Originally posted by XPLodER

Originally posted by ThirdEyeofHorus
reply to post by XPLodER

 

Ah so you are not American but you are recommending all this direct democracy stuff to us? Tres Interessant!

blatent lie
i have never avocated for a direct democractic for of govenemnt for the usa
FALSE

re read what i have said

i do not wish to see any change in the form of govenemnt of any nation as self determination is key

try agin to put words in my mouth,
you missed and its on your face lol

xploder

Alright, then maybe I just misinterpreted this remark of yours

organic leaderless democracy is where the acual people decide what they want to see in the bills before congress.

Please let me know what you really meant by it.
Here you are talking expressly about OWS and not the students in Iran, so you must be giving advice to Americans.

OWS allows all people to give the ideas to others to generate bills WE want passed.

Oh gosh, you are not American but you want OWS to generate bills you want passed. Now tell me just how that works? You are living in the States on a visa or overstayed your visa or whatever but you want to be represented but you can't vote being you are not a citizen? Is that what is going on here?

OWS currently gives a minority group of socialist collectivists an avenue to impress on leaders that they want free stuff from rich people. That is the message they have been giving. Then again, because they are not a majority, maybe it's not a majority rule they really want, but their own lobby voice in Washington, but they are calling it something else. They want to write a bunch of bills to regulate industry and have their student loans forgiven. I feel so represented by them. (Not)

Originally posted by XPLodER
i do not intend to be obtuse,
i desire to see the population of the greatest country in the world use their right to redress to challenge the inblence in society that is so obvious to me. weither you belive me or not what happens in america effects my country as well this is being made painfully obvious with your and our economic conditions.
OWS

I find a bit of disconnect here. First you present the above, but later in this very post, you make no claim to be representative of the OWS. Which is it? Why even levy and declare OWS at the end of that? I stray from the nefarious but you are walking the line when you claim one thing and then not the other.

I do though understand what happens here in the United States effects others but a lot of that is political muddy water in which the United States -- as a government -- shouldn't have such an effect. The individual and business that operate within should be the ones producing that effect upon outside nations.

well the remove insider trading bill only had 2 sponcers untill the media ran a story on it,
now there are 45 sponcers, maby the motivation of the OWS will also enhance the passage of bills that work for the people

I am not sure how that equates to how the People can effect the most change -- but regardless, I am glad you have taken interest in following bills. Do you know the H.R. bill number? Where did you hear it only had 2 sponsors up until the "media" ran a story on it? I ask honestly to know where you are coming from.

i would like to hear your understanding of the poular vote and its implications.

A different thread and I would gladly. Here we are talking about the disconnect between the media and the "leaderless leadership" concept.

no as i am not part of or speaking on behalf of or joined to or in any other way connected to any movement at all
i do not educate people or make dicisions.

this thread is my interpretation of what is confusing the media so much,
and from some of the responces in the thread i can now understand why media are so confused

as well as i have learned more about how your republic works

so in a sence i have been educated during the discusion

xp

Initial I meant no harm nor caustic mannerism when I said what I said; please understand that. I am a strong opponent of "democracy" in the sense that people think it to be the end game in which free people all get along and make grand decisions in which everyone is happy. Take me to that place where it happens, I will be happy; but humans are fallible. They are devious. They are ambitious. All traits taken advantage of in this utopian democratic society people want.

Originally posted by ManBehindTheMask
reply to post by XPLodER

 

i do think presenting to a well conected politician that supports the effort will be far more fruitful, but it great to know that "the people" can deliver bills for debate

Right so more special interests and lobbyist right? Hello?! not seeing your own hypocrisy there?

I guess its ok as long as it supports OWS tho right

you really want to compair PAID lobbyests and privite persons?

you realise thats like compairing apples and moon rocks right?
xp

Originally posted by kellerphoenix
reply to post by XPLodER

 

What scares me more than WWIII, an asteroid impact, a supervolcano or anything else is the idea of this movement. There needs to be structure in any leadership. There need to be laws, rules, control without it there is only anarchy.

edit on 23-11-2011 by kellerphoenix because: (no reason given)

Keller, I think you have this correct. Check this out (when you get there, scroll down the page--you will find some very interesting video footage of just what you are talking about)

pjmedia.com...

The U.S. is a wonderful country. We must not lose the original intent of Its Constitution, which is based on a Republic, the rule of law and liberty and justice for all.

I think if my history studies have remembered it right, the American Revolution was the only revolution in all time that did not end up in dictatorship.

I hope we stand for Liberty and Freedom and with good people who can dig deep into our souls and find a return to the original ideas that were based upon faith in the people to function with freedom in an honesty based, personally responsible kind of free market economy.

The free market is a good idea, but we need the free market system to be cleaned up so it is not corrupted by the kind of people who are cheat and scam via big government/corporations/greed.

I am very sure it can be cleaned up. We should be the shining example to the rest of world as to what they might achieve.

We can do it, if we return to the principles that we love about this about these United States.

Originally posted by ThirdEyeofHorus
reply to post by XPLodER

 

My material is not from wiki leaks or wikipedia even. I'm not sure what that would do for me?

wiki reference was because it was easy,
i am replying to a number of members at one time
i can supply more indepth links if it will help

xploder

Originally posted by XPLodER

Originally posted by ThirdEyeofHorus
reply to post by XPLodER

 

My material is not from wiki leaks or wikipedia even. I'm not sure what that would do for me?

wiki reference was because it was easy,
i am replying to a number of members at one time
i can supply more indepth links if it will help

xploder

Thank you for clarifying.