The PWS - Protect Wall Street movement

reply to post by mastahunta


If you were to think about it, I think you would realize that it is at the local level where local government regulation hits small businesses the hardest, while the low level politicians are the easiest for the big corporations to bribe.

There is no such thing as a free market, the whole concept is nothing but ideological drivel, and when this country wakes up to that reality, then, and only then, can we start on the path to take back our liberties and prosperity.

Originally posted by poet1b
reply to post by seabag

 

The answer to your questions is the people who foolishly buy into the con job of the free market, and vote for politicians who are the ones doing everything you are talking about.

How insane is it that the people who hate government vote for politicians who make and support all the laws that increases government power, more military, more police, less enforcement of laws that prevent white collar crime.

The people electing politicians who turn our government against the people are the ones most at fault.

Supporting the Free Market con is supporting the bankers, and the politicians who work for them.

So we agree that the political system is corrupt. However, OWS would rather blame Wall Street, capitalism, the free market system and the people who vote rather than blaming the crooked politicians themselves. Here is the cycle that I see….

Corporations want an edge. The bigger corporations (this includes bankers) obviously have a huge financial advantage over the smaller corporations. Lobbyists from these corporations want to use their money to positively influence their business so they seek ways to buy politicians.

Lobbyists approach the politicians and offer them huge financial incentives to sway/change/remove laws and other barriers so the corporation can make greater profits (GE paid no taxes last year on their $14 BILLION profit)

Politicians who can’t be bought are destroyed. Corporations own the media so they have the influence to sway the election by propping up their candidate (the one willing to be bought) while destroying his/her opponent (the one trying to do the right thing and expose the game). They use this as a means to get their guy/gal into office and ensure their continued assistance.

Think about this…if we could limit the ties between government and corporations, stop the money changing hands, stop the Quid Pro Quo, stop the media manipulation, force transparency in all transactions, and limit the terms of congressmen we could eliminate the ability of corporations, banksters and lobbyists to manipulate the system. Once we dump the crooks in Washington and set up barriers to protect this from happening we can go after corporations trying to circumvent the system. These protections have been systematically removed over the years by BOTH PARTIES!

We must identify and remove the corrupt politicians on both sides FIRST! We cannot let the media manipulate our vote. We must pick the candidates that we trust to do these things and not be swayed by the media’s attempts to pick the candidate for us! Whoever the media is pulling for is obviously the one who is ON THE TAKE. This is what the Tea Party is all about. The Tea Party plan is working, though the numbers are currently VERY small as a percentage of government because the Obama machine is strong. I truly believe that WIL NOT be the case in 2012, as evidenced by what happened in the 2010 elections as well as the general awareness of the American people!

reply to post by seabag


That you don't want to blame Wall Street demonstrates that you refuse to see the reality.

They aren't blaming capitalism. Seriously, this is pure rhetorical nonsense.

There is no such thing as a free market system. It does not exist, and never will exist. When you wake up to that reality, you will be on your way.

All these problems start with the ICBers. They pick out, groom, and control the politicians they put into place to turn our own government against us.

The ICBers also put out the propaganda that convinces people that there is such a thing as a free market, getting people to vote for politicians who only represent the corporations.

What a surprise that many of the people who vote for the free market politicians also like to send money to televangelists.

reply to post by mastahunta


Read a bit of the history, much of which is ably posted on this site. Of course the banks knew the loans were bad. That is why they were bundled and securitized to improve the bank's balance sheets to accomodate bank regulations.

The government FORCED the banks to make those loans in order to stay in business. The community reinvestment act, implemented durint the Carter years forced banks to make loans to the poor and minorities. They set the ratio of the percentage of a bank's loan portfolio had to be in CRA loans. Janet Reno upped that threshold to over 50% of a bank's portfolio. The government then revised the fair credit standards to allow banks to make zero down, no credit history and other bogus loans. The entire business was created by the government looking to manipulate the economy to enable social outcomes. The whole nonsense of the American Dream being home ownership.

The banks were not about to sit with these BS loans on their books and Wall Street securitized them. The government loved this as it further pushed the housing market up, fueled economic growth and put more folks in houses - all the stuff for good campaign commercials.

If there were no market for securitized loans Wall Street never would have created them. If they had created them and there was no demand for them, nobody would have bought them.

As it relates to these trash securities being highly rated, it was the government via the SEC who allowed S&P and Moodys to give the security the rating that was applicable to the highest quality debt in the security, not the middle and lower tiers. Again, the government loved the market for mortgage securities because it fueled this vaporous economic growth. For the market to really soar, the institutional investors, e.g. pension funds needed to get in on the action. ERISA law prohibits ERISA qualified plans from holding low quality debt securities, hence the rationale for the SEC to let the ratings agencys only rate the top tier of debt.

All are to blame. The fool who got in over his head, the government who manipulated economic principals for a political end and the bankers for feeding the fire. The bankers were responding to demand created by the first two. No demand, no supply.

Originally posted by poet1b
reply to post by seabag

 

That you don't want to blame Wall Street demonstrates that you refuse to see the reality.

They aren't blaming capitalism. Seriously, this is pure rhetorical nonsense.

There is no such thing as a free market system. It does not exist, and never will exist. When you wake up to that reality, you will be on your way.

All these problems start with the ICBers. They pick out, groom, and control the politicians they put into place to turn our own government against us.

The ICBers also put out the propaganda that convinces people that there is such a thing as a free market, getting people to vote for politicians who only represent the corporations.

What a surprise that many of the people who vote for the free market politicians also like to send money to televangelists.

Wall Street IS corrupt but they are allowed by our government to be corrupt! I don’t condone or support Wall Street being crooked or underhanded, I just happen to believe the way to fix it is through FIRST fixing corruption in our government.

Anyway, this is exactly why some OWS’ers and Tea Partiers will NEVER come together for a solution. You think I’m an idiot who doesn’t understand what the problems are and I think the same about you on this topic.

There’s no sense trying to explain my position further. You’re obviously as firm in your beliefs as I am, so we’ll just agree to disagree on this one.

Originally posted by seabag

Originally posted by poet1b
reply to post by seabag

 

The answer to your questions is the people who foolishly buy into the con job of the free market, and vote for politicians who are the ones doing everything you are talking about.

How insane is it that the people who hate government vote for politicians who make and support all the laws that increases government power, more military, more police, less enforcement of laws that prevent white collar crime.

The people electing politicians who turn our government against the people are the ones most at fault.

Supporting the Free Market con is supporting the bankers, and the politicians who work for them.

So we agree that the political system is corrupt. However, OWS would rather blame Wall Street, capitalism, the free market system and the people who vote rather than blaming the crooked politicians themselves. Here is the cycle that I see….

Corporations want an edge. The bigger corporations (this includes bankers) obviously have a huge financial advantage over the smaller corporations. Lobbyists from these corporations want to use their money to positively influence their business so they seek ways to buy politicians.

Lobbyists approach the politicians and offer them huge financial incentives to sway/change/remove laws and other barriers so the corporation can make greater profits (GE paid no taxes last year on their $14 BILLION profit)

Politicians who can’t be bought are destroyed. Corporations own the media so they have the influence to sway the election by propping up their candidate (the one willing to be bought) while destroying his/her opponent (the one trying to do the right thing and expose the game). They use this as a means to get their guy/gal into office and ensure their continued assistance.

Chew on this... I am hardcore OWS, you agree with me and I agree with you on the above.
So does this make you a radical commie scumbag? This thread is ultimately about the
efforts to damage OWS, so here we are, you agreeing completely with one of the radical
scumbags in question. I will tell you something further, I am OWS precisely because this
view is what is driving the people to take the time out of their lives and protest.

I think you and the good faith people in your ranks think that blaming the banks, will weaken
or undermine your political views or capitalism in general. It will not, however, putting the banks
on notice and punishing crime at this level will go very far to strengthen capitalism. This is
what frustrates the living hell out of me, that you guys don't see it, a dose of medicine is
not intended to kill the patient...

Think about this…if we could limit the ties between government and corporations, stop the money changing hands, stop the Quid Pro Quo, stop the media manipulation, force transparency in all transactions, and limit the terms of congressmen we could eliminate the ability of corporations, banksters and lobbyists to manipulate the system.

Are you OWS??? This is EXACTLY what we talk about, all of us talk about this
exact same chain of solutions, are you evil?

Once we dump the crooks in Washington and set up barriers to protect this from happening we can go after corporations trying to circumvent the system. These protections have been systematically removed over the years by BOTH PARTIES!

I think the problem is all the crooks are filtered through the same process to reach office.
To illustrate the severity of the problem you speak of, can you name 20 good politicians
in either house? Really, try and then you will see

We must identify and remove the corrupt politicians on both sides FIRST! We cannot let the media manipulate our vote. We must pick the candidates that we trust to do these things and not be swayed by the media’s attempts to pick the candidate for us!

Well look how the GOP race is heading

For a second take off your ideological badge and look at the candidates.

One was an extremely high official in the FED with deep ties to the banks

Another made his millions crushing smaller American business's

Another took and unitized tons of Federal money, subsidies to run a massive and virtual adoption business
and has received almost every pay check from the government she preaches against, career bureaucrat and politician

Another one lobbied for Freddy, received over a million, while preaching against the entire concept. Career
politician

I am just saying... You can't even begin to make enough paint to gussy up this field.
The point is, that is how politicians are, you re lucky to get 1 good one out of 100,
to base all you hopes on this is futile IMO.

Originally posted by dolphinfan
reply to post by mastahunta

 

Read a bit of the history, much of which is ably posted on this site. Of course the banks knew the loans were bad. That is why they were bundled and securitized to improve the bank's balance sheets to accomodate bank regulations.

The government FORCED the banks to make those loans in order to stay in business. The community reinvestment act, implemented durint the Carter years forced banks to make loans to the poor and minorities.

and these loans you speak of helped millions of people purchase homes. Those loans
were being offered and utilized for decades. You do realize that there is a direct correlation
between home ownership and a strong meta economy?

Lets look at the years these loans were granted and see if there was a massive economic collapse
which was cause by the government forcing the poor banks.

1977
1978
1979
1980
1981
1982
1983
1984
1985
1986
1987
1988
1989
1990
1991
1992 (any collapse yet??? 15 year mortgages paid off by next cycle)
1993
1994
1995
1996
1997
1998
1999 ( this changed en.wikipedia.org...)
2000

So you blaming this on the government helping to facilitate loans decades ago is not a very strong argument
in and of it self.

Securitizing these loans was the act which created the economic contagion and the supply for
of a completely new type of virtual commodity.

Awesome thread! It's really sad to see Americans against Americans who are against corruption though. It's gonna take mass inflaton (which IS coming) to wake people up, but by then it'll be too late....

However, I am sure we will find something else to fight about.

reply to post by dolphinfan


You were solid up until this point...

The government FORCED the banks to make those loans in order to stay in business.

The Federal Reserve Board initiated low income housing, so their cronies at Goldman Sachs could level profit from both ends of the scam. When they were finished, the markets would be so depressed, stocks, homes, and various commodities could be purchased for pennies on the dollar. Must I remind you the Federal Reserve is not a government agency. This mirrors the Great Depression... Apparently you won't learn.


Ask Alan Greenspan, if you still don't believe.

reply to post by seabag


They are allowed by our government to be corrupt, because they corrupted our government so it would allow it.
It's a cycle. You can come out against either one and make the same point. I personally choose to call out both.

reply to post by seabag

Wall Street IS corrupt but they are allowed by our government to be corrupt!

Come on? You are blaming the government for Wall Street crimes? Is it also the fault of government that murderers murder and rapists rape?

The problem is people voting for politicians who eliminate the rules that prevent the white collar crimes in the first place.

I just happen to believe the way to fix it is through FIRST fixing corruption in our government.

I agree, the only way to fix this is to first fix government. Vote out all the politicians who wrote laws that allowed the banks to get away with mass scale fraud. That would be the politicians who preach about free markets.

Then get the government back to doing the job it is supposed to do, which is protect people from white collar crime.

reply to post by dolphinfan

The government FORCED the banks to make those loans in order to stay in business.

Yeah sure they did, and they also forced those Wall Street execs to give themselves billions of dollars in bonuses.

Things were fine until banking deregulation led by the repubs in Congress allowed the wide spread fraud to be perpetrated on the people of the U.S..

A candid, honest article on the Occupy London protest - www.sabotagetimes.com...

Originally posted by seabag
I’m sure you really believe what you claim about OWS but the sooner you learn what’s really going on the sooner we can fix it. Stop being condescending and look deeper. I know you can do it!

Stop deluding yourself and I will stop being condescending, Seabag. I'm sorry, but you really ARE making a conscious choice to know absolutely nothing, and are then pretending this gives you a coherent "position."

My advice, for starters, would be to listen to what the people in OWS tell you, rather than what the people who have a vested interest in crushing OWS tell you. For instance, the moronic dribble you are quoting here.

The Occupy Wall Street movement, with an incoherent agenda that rails against income inequality and the evils of capitalism, ignores the fact that what we are practicing is not true capitalism, the version where businesses and entrepreneurs are allowed to compete on a truly level playing field to reap the rewards or be allowed to fail.

Instead, businesses large and small are encumbered by regulations and a byzantine tax code designed not to raise money for the needed functions of government but to reward or punish the behavior of corporations and individuals as the government sees fit.

Really, despite the LOWEST taxes in US history? Despite the LEAST regulations since the 1910's? "Business is burdened"? Is that so? Then why are so many raking in record profits every quarter? I love these economics twits who make the business sector sound like the slaves of Egypt or something.

Further this whole argument misses a very critical factor of our economy. It's often missed by these "economic experts," whose knowledge of economics is essentially religious dogma, rather than study and experimentation. The critical factor? Our economy is consumer-driven, not producer-driven. We can deregulate everything. we can cut taxes everywhere. The market will remain stagnant if people aren't buying, though. Meanwhile both deregulation and removal of corporate taxation cut into the purchasing power of the masses... further depressing hteir willingness to purchase.

Crony Capitalism: As the president embraces Occupy Wall Street, his favorite corporation paid no taxes in 2010 on $14 billion in profits, much of it overseas. Meanwhile, 20,000 jobs for the 99% go unfilled.

At a recent town hall meeting, Rep. Paul Ryan, R-Wis., chairman of the House Budget Committee, reminded constituents of a story that broke earlier in the year - that General Electric paid no taxes on profit of $14 billion, $9 billion of which was earned overseas.
RealClearMarkets

So... If we strip all the taxes, jobs will pick up? Then why are there no jobs coming from this company that paid no taxes?
No no, if we deregulate, then jobs will come back! ..>Except that deregulation is what allows GE to send all those jobs overseas after laying off its American workforce in the first place.

Look, Seabag. I can forgive you if you honestly don't understand this stuff. Most Americans have been trained to get a glazed look in their head when they hear the word "economics," and to just blindly trust whatever the "experts" say, even when the experts clearly have no grasp on reality. So in small words... if you think that cutting taxes lower, and deregulating more is going ot magically "fix" the problems we're facing now, you're plain and simply wrong.

reply to post by GogoVicMorrow


While individual politicians may gain from this corruption, the same cannot be said for government as a whole. In fact governance is greatly weakened by corruption like this. The corruption is thus beneficial to business but detrimental to government; and by extension, to ourselves, who - in a democratic system - are heavily invested in said government.

Further, the money is the cause of the corruption. That money is coming from the business sector. While those in government need to be held accountable for their wrongdoing, doing so will not halt the corruption. it will simply create a new vacancy in the corruption system for a new politician to fill.

The problem is - and always HAS been - business influence on our government. Businessmen buy congressmen; congressmen don't buy businessmen.

This is going to be fun...

Originally posted by mastahunta
OWS is a communist plot destined to destroy capitalism and freedom. They are also dirty hippies, lazy, union thugs, anti American, pro terrorist too.

Really? Looks to me like the police are the terrorist... not to mention the bankers, corporations (see social responsibility) and MIC...

They don't have any leaders or consistent message, they are illegitimate, evil,
uneducated and are protesting the wrong things.

But yet these protests are being done at Universities??? and who are you to say what they can and can't protest?

George Soros funds them, they berate children, use babies for human shields, crap on cars and will be used to extinguish your ability to do what you want in America.

Proof???

The Protect Wall Street movement is alive and well, stacking up a laundry list of defamatory information and threads aimed at eliminating any positive public opinion of OWS. Instead of be cognizant of what has happened here with the American financial institutions, many people seem to think that attacking other citizens and their protests against these institutions is a more important use of effort.

I'm not sure if this is a threat or reversal of what you just said...

Did OWS take over your government with slow and methodical infiltration? - No that was the elite 1%

Did OWS, bribe your politicians into making laws that stripe you of your tax money? - No, again the 1%

Did OWS make turn collapsing Americas economy into a successful business plan? - Can I just say ditto because saying NO is already getting boring... 1% there you go...

Did OWS destroy the vigor of your business? - ditto 1%

Did OWS initiate the pain and suffering of the people in your communities? - 1%

Do I have to go on? Please do because you are defending the OWS now...

Many of you claim to be against the forces that are creating misery in America, but you seem to think that a disorganized band of people in the street is the source of this misery, and that is an unreasonable conclusion. The state of the economy and the government existed long before OWS ever hit the streets, yet you sure as hell wouldn't know it would you?

Ummm yeah we would because this has been going on for centuries not years...

Can any of you PWS proponents please list a specific grievance which has been perpetrated against you by OWS? I want anyone on ATS to list the crimes which have perpetrated against you and I will apologize to you with sincerity. I truly am sorry if OWS has done something to harm you or your family because I know that is not the point or intent.

PWS, the banks and associated forces bribe the politicians that you elect to serve you.They make you pay interest on money that has no tangible value or worth, essentially making you pay for the money they create and earn for free. They employed a business plans that almost destroyed America and they did it with full intent and knowledge. Not only did they sell more fake assets without their international derivative scheme, but they fully knew that the depositor value in their holdings could be used to leverage and warrant bailouts.

I find it very hard to believe that any of you can seriously find more fault with other Americans in the street, than these methodical and felonious liars that see no consequence in destroying your beloved country, while making you pay for it!

edit on 18-11-2011 by mastahunta because: (no reason given)

Now I can see why everyone is so confused... The whole last part is what OWS is protesting but yet you want to protect the Wall Street crooks and TRY to call out OWSers by calling them lazy, good for nothing hippies?

Do I detect a split personality here?

reply to post by mastahunta


Let me give you some strong advice. If you really want people to take your movement seriously, Drop the Wall Street crap and focus on Capital Hill and the White House. Focus on concrete actions and reforms. Concern yourselves with the system and the players that actually CREATED and ENABLED everything that you so despise. Wall Street just operated within the changing boundaries that were given to them Congress. The ever shifting goal post and a blind eye towards the law all came from DC.

Have you read the news lately? The gig is up and the lid has been blown off the cronyism in DC from the quid pro quo played with lobbyists to the Insider Trader among congressmen and women on both sides of the aisle.

New legislation is pressing that aims to clamp down on all of this. Get behind that and make some noise about that.

I am opposed to the OWS tactics and inactions than have been on display for two months now. I certainly am not one to be labeled a protector of Wall Street either. My focus has always been on Capital Hill and the White House.

Occupy needs a new vision and needs to pull as far away from the agitators as possible. The agitators have a different goal in mind. Get back to the End the Fed message and lose the battle cries for class warfare because in the end you won't be fighting the 1% you will be fighting the 53%. The 1% will still be up in their Ivory Towers where Occupy has intentionally placed them.

reply to post by SmArTbEaTz


I believe he was being sarcastic during the first few paragraphs or so, trying to basically point out what is being said in this thread:

Anti-OWS threads reach for everything they can to denouce the movement

reply to post by jibeho


Honestly,
Are we better off now than we were two years ago in your opinion or worse off?

reply to post by mastahunta

Yes, Wall Street can stay the fakc out of the political system and stop bribing politicians
or face revocation of their organizational status. The have free will, what happen to the
word responsibility?

But Wall Street can’t pass laws; only Congress can. The only way to keep Wall Street out (and I absolutely, wholeheartedly agree they need to be out) is to send people to Washington with that agenda. With enough numbers, the Tea Party can put pressure on the Republican Party and make it happen.

No it won't, tell me, are thing better after three years of the Tea Party? Huh?
Nothing has changed, precisely because the government is corrupted by Wall Street
and co. You can put just about any politician in there and they will be lobbied silly
by the same interests.

There are only about 100 Tea Party members in Congress, and some aren’t serious they are just jumping on the band wagon…..that’s the problem! They have managed to put pressure on establishment Republicans and stop a few things but they haven’t accomplished everything they seek. I believe we will see a shift in 2012 toward the Tea Party - If we don’t then we’re in trouble.

The Tea Party contingent in the House, and its supporters, have played a pivotal role as a series of fights over federal spending unfolded over the course of 2011.

While the numbers of Tea Party-affiliated winners in the November 2010 elections was relatively small, they have exerted outsize influence, putting pressure on Republican leaders to carry out promises to significantly cut spending and taxes and to repeal health care legislation passed in 2010. Indeed, on Jan. 19, 2011, the House voted 245 to 189 in favor of repealing a sweeping health care overhaul, in what both sides agreed was largely a symbolic act. A few weeks later, Senate Democrats defeated a bid by Republicans to repeal the health care overhaul, as they successfully mounted a party-line defense on a vote of 47 to 51.

It was pressure from Tea Party members that led House Speaker John A. Boehner to push for deep cuts in the final months of the 2011 budget, which brought the government to the brink of a shutdown in April. And resistance to making revenue increases part of any deal over raising the federal debt ceiling played a large role in Mr. Boehner's decision to break off talks with Mr. Obama in late July over a so-called grand bargain to cut the deficit by $4 trillion over 10 years.

New York Times