Did the USA just get lucky, having conquered a land so rich in resources.

Yes, we have done all these things, and probably to an extent because of our ingenuity. But I also think it is a part of our cultural values - to always want more, to always want to go bigger, better, faster, stronger.

The Native Americans also lived here for thousands of years, and did not create these things. But does that mean that we're better than they were? Not necessarily. The Native American values were of harmony with nature, not pillaging of nature in order to better our own technological advances. And they survived relatively peacefully (tribal wars of course but nothing, absolutely nothing like the bloody wars of Europe and Western Asia) until we invaded them.

So, which was the "better" culture? Who were smarter? I don't know. I guess it depends on if you think technological progress was good for the human race or not. Maybe we'd have been happier if we hadn't tried to use our "ingenuity" at all... it just depends on which way you look at it.

reply to post by Jean Paul Zodeaux

Yes! The United States greatest resource was, and hopefully still is, ingenuity. I wholeheartedly agree with you that if it wasn't oil, American's would have developed some other form of energy to advance technology. Perhaps without oil, Tesla's ideas would have come to the forefront instead of pushed to the back as they were.

Tesla was Serbian so technically that technology is the invention of a European,

Originally posted by Misterlondon
reply to post by Jean Paul Zodeaux

 

Yes! The United States greatest resource was, and hopefully still is, ingenuity. I wholeheartedly agree with you that if it wasn't oil, American's would have developed some other form of energy to advance technology. Perhaps without oil, Tesla's ideas would have come to the forefront instead of pushed to the back as they were.

Tesla was Serbian so technically that technology is the invention of a European,

You can say the same about the US Space Programme. It was all down to Wernher Von Braun and his fellow Nazi war criminals. all secretly taken out of Germany during and after WW II and landing in the US under "Operation Paperclip"

www.operationpaperclip.info...

reply to post by Misterlondon


You seem to missing the point of what it means to be "American", and the reason this nation is known as "the great melting pot".

That said, Tesla Electric Light and Manufacturing was wholly an American company.

Originally posted by Jean Paul Zodeaux
reply to post by Misterlondon

 

You seem to missing the point of what it means to be "American", and the reason this nation is known as "the great melting pot".

That said, Tesla Electric Light and Manufacturing was wholly an American company.

The only flaw in your argument is the electric arc light was invented by an Englishman Sir Humphry Davy:-

en.wikipedia.org...

reply to post by alldaylong



I never made any argument at all about the electric arc light, and simply suggested that had we not become so oil dependent we very well may have relied more heavily on Tesla's ideas and theories than we have.

Originally posted by Jean Paul Zodeaux
reply to post by Misterlondon

 

You seem to missing the point of what it means to be "American", and the reason this nation is known as "the great melting pot".

That said, Tesla Electric Light and Manufacturing was wholly an American company.

I dont want to get into a tit for tat comment thing here.. and i do hear what your saying, it may be an American company, but that doesnt change the fact it was started and owned by a 30 year old Serbian guy that had only been in the country for 2 years..

On 6 June 1884, Tesla first arrived in the United States,

his first experience of what it is to be American

In 1885 when Tesla inquired about the payment for his work, Edison replied, "Tesla, you don't understand our American humor", thus breaking his word.[28][29] Earning US$18 per week, Tesla would have had to work for 53 years to earn the amount he was promised

then 2 years after coming to america

The Tesla Electric Light & Manufacturing was a company formed by Nikola Tesla in 1886

then look what happened to him... still learning what it means to be american huh?

The initial financial investors disagreed with Tesla on his plan for an alternating current motor and eventually relieved him of his duties at the company. Tesla worked in New York as a laborer from 1886 to 1887 to feed himself

to be fair..he didnt have the best time during his time in America...did he?

to cut a long story short, during his time in America he was ripped off, hounded, suppressed, his inventions were stolen, all records of his research and lifes work were destroyed, he was labeled a madman and died alone in a hotel..

reply to post by poet1b


It wasn't luck, and it wasn't just our innovation. It was, and always has been, and always will be Divine Providence. This country was built as the
'City Upon a Hill".

Ronald Reagan spoke of it in his 1984 acceptance speech...

...I've spoken of the shining city all my political life, but I don't know if I ever quite communicated what I saw when I said it. But in my mind it was a tall proud city built on rocks stronger than oceans, wind-swept, God-blessed, and teeming with people of all kinds living in harmony and peace, a city with free ports that hummed with commerce and creativity, and if there had to be city walls, the walls had doors and the doors were open to anyone with the will and the heart to get here. That's how I saw it and see it still...

Puritans believed in Predestination, and Puritans were largely responsible for the founding of this country.

Future governor John Winthrop stated their purpose quite clearly: "We shall be as a city upon a hill, the eyes of all people are upon us."

It comes from Jesus' sermon on the mount...

"You are the light of the world. A city set on a hill cannot be hid. Nor do men light a lamp and put it under a bushel, but on a stand, and it gives light to all in the house. Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works and give glory to your Father who is in heaven."

Source: Jesus Christ, The Sermon on the Mount, Matthew 5:14-16.

And, it doesn't matter if one believes in Divine Providence or not, all that matters is for many generations, the folks here did believe in it, and the conducted themselves fearlessly and tirelessly and they built their Shining City Upon the Hill because of that belief!!! It doesn't matter is one believes the US is a Christian Nation or not. What matters is that for many generations, and even today, the majority of the Nation is Christian, and many of them still see the US as that shining city, and many of them will fight tirelessly to uphold those same principles.

This is the Land of Milk and Honey!! We should all be as dedicated to its protection as those that built it.

Interesting topic

Seems America's forefathers were lucky that the culture here wasn't equal or superior in terms of weaponry and society. What's the saying, don't bring a knife to a gunfight? Nobody really knew what existed so in that sense it was luck.

Bring in a few millenniums of knowledge from the old world that definitely aided the new world's development, and with little resistance in the way of resources and land... then it's boom, a superpower is born.

Driven by power, with military innovation leading the way. Compared to most nations, America is now a technological wonder because of it.

reply to post by thefullbug


Guns hadn't been developed but for little over a century before the discovery of America, and the technology was still evolving. The Vikings had discovered America a couple of centuries before, but their technology had not advanced to the point where they were able to get a foot hold on the continent.

Guns, sailing ships, and a whole lot of other advances gave the Europeans considerable advantage over all the civilizations of the world. This is why Europe dominated the world for several centuries.

Of course those spinning the tales that America, and Europeans, just got lucky, want to pretend that Europeans stole all their tech from ancient civilizations, which is complete racist nonsense.

The rest of the civilizations of the world were busy conquering all territory they could grab. The only thing that kept them from conquering the Americas, was complete lack of tech.

And you still have to consider how it is that the U.S. became so much more successful than Latin America, which has comparable resources.

reply to post by poet1b



I think you may have missed my point as your post was directed at me. I never said anything about anyone stealing any techs from the ancient civilizations. I merely said they had the benefit of an technology tree if you will, prior to coming over. They were more advanced than any civilization already here.

Just suppose for a minute, that there was a comparable civilization already here much like the Europeans when they landed, don't tell me the same outcome would have materialized? A couple of my statements were meant to be taken for the post-gun era, and America's expansion westward was definitely aided by guns. Yes hard work, ingenuity, ambition I agree, but to say luck didn't play any role in the development of America, now I don't buy that for a minute.

reply to post by thefullbug


No, I got your point, but you don't seem to want to get mine.

Europeans were more advanced than any other civilization on Earth.

Luck had nothing to do with it.

Europeans broke free from the tyranny of religion and monarchs, and blossomed technologically, and that is why they succeeded.

Native Americans failed to develop metallurgy, failed to domesticate horses, but maybe that was a result of the many waves of immigrants who conquered the continents. The people who founded the U.S. just were more successful than all the rest. Once again, luck had nothing to do with it.

You have to remember that much of the United States was originally claimed by other countries first.

The British founded the original 13 colonies on the East Coast. Everything west of that was then claimed by France while Florida and Louisiana were already claimed by the Spanish.

In 1783, a deal was struck with France and the US territory was expanded as far west as the Mississippi River.

In 1803, the Louisiana Purchase was made which sold the entire Midwest to the US, excluding Texas.

Meanwhile, Mexico claimed the entire Southwest (Calfornia, Nevada, Arizona, part of New Mexico, part of Colorado) until 1848.

And the Oregon territory wasn't claimed until 1846.

If not for these deals, the United States would still be 13 states with very little land and resources. Like a number of smaller european nations.

Originally posted by Jean Paul Zodeaux
reply to post by alldaylong

 

I never made any argument at all about the electric arc light, and simply suggested that had we not become so oil dependent we very well may have relied more heavily on Tesla's ideas and theories than we have.

That was my point. The electric arc light was not Tesla's idea it was someone else's. Sir Humphry Davy got there before him. Tesla copied it.

reply to post by alldaylong

I've heard (from my real estate course instructor, and confirmed by some title attorneys) that we still have no legal claim to Florida. Title searches here evetnually go back to ferdinand and Isabella who never legally transferred any ownership rights. Most title insurance policies are based upon clear title for some length of time, say 50 years, because they cannot establish a full proof link to a clear title in the state.

I can't say its 100% true, but it is the premise that real estate agents and title companies work from here.

reply to post by getreadyalready


How does Spain's claim to Florida ring any more legit, than the U.S. claim? I'd say these days Cuba has more legitimacy.

Don't the Brits still control Gibraltar? I think the Spanish are still paying for the Spanish Inquisition, and the brutality of their conquests.

reply to post by poet1b


I'm not sure. I know there were some shady treaties and contracts with the Indians for things like Manhatten Island. I think there is a legal trail establishing ownership of most things. Louisianna Purchase for example. Even though the contracts were made without legal representation or understanding by the natives, and many times under extreme duress, they still exist. In Florida, I don't think there is even a faux document. Ferdinand and Isabella had some legal claim to the area, perhaps a treaty with the Seminole Indians, but then the US took control and kept it.

Cuba may not have legal rights, but they certainly rule the population in southern Florida. Even our very own Tea Party Conservative Senator Marco Rubio is 100% Cuban, and not a naturally born US citizen, and he is likely ineligible to be President, even though he is a popular VP name being tossed around right now.

So, legally it belongs to Spain, by convention it is ruled by the US, and in practicality it is mostly under Cuban control! At least the southern half.

reply to post by getreadyalready


What you are probably dealing with is the corrupt way that Florida is ran.

All legal claims come from the government ruling the area at the time. Once conquered all legal claims become void. Land ownership itself is a relatively recent concept.

Before democracies in their various forms were created, all land belonged to the King (emperor, local war lord, whatever), who granted land rights to his subjects as he desired. The rulers control over the land only existed as long as that ruler remained in power.

You need to recognize that the rights of men, and the ability to actually own property, as declared in the U.S. Constitution, was an extremely revolutionary concept at the time. The people of the U.S. who took on the worlds greatest empire, claimed a level of freedom that had never existed before, and armed with this new freedom, those people built a nation that succeeded far more than any other nation has ever succeeded.

The people who want to claim the U.S. just got lucky are for the most part, religious nutcases who abhor the idea of individual liberty. They want to tell everyone else how to live their lives, and are more than happy to bow and scrape to some king, or whatever person of authority.