Now that Greece is dragging us all under, what is going to happen?

reply to post by Required01


You imagine me in some basement sorta light, tinfoil hat maybe?

I own my home and vehicles, I am debt free, I'm doing fine. Thanks for asking. Oh, but you mean those Other people? Well all the debts just happen to filter into a very select set of hands, who just happen to be best buddies with the various central banks, who just happen to fund both sides of wars, and the media, and essentially... the world. Through debt.

We need to say "NO" we're not going to pay one cent ever. Start over, and try to do better. These monsters have already gone too far.

reply to post by Required01


"Send something I can read".
I did. The link is working perfectly. However, if your french is poor and you can't use google translate, visit page 4 of the link. You will find a TABLEAU 1 titled Duree annuelle moyene du travail (nombre d' heures), which shows as I said before the number of hours workers work depending on the country they are working. As I said before, nobody tops Greece. In the exact same page you will find a TABLEAU 2 titled Age effectif moyen de depart a la retraite, which means real medium age of retirement. You will see Greece, at 61,5 years.

How on earth did you read 82%??????????
The link stated CLEARLY that public sector workers are 8% of the population and 18% of the active labor force.

Originally posted by thejlxc
reply to post by Required01

 

You imagine me in some basement sorta light, tinfoil hat maybe?

I own my home and vehicles, I am debt free, I'm doing fine. Thanks for asking. Oh, but you mean those Other people? Well all the debts just happen to filter into a very select set of hands, who just happen to be best buddies with the various central banks, who just happen to fund both sides of wars, and the media, and essentially... the world. Through debt.

We need to say "NO" we're not going to pay one cent ever. Start over, and try to do better. These monsters have already gone too far.

Do you know me? Do you know what i think of you? Why do you think that?

So you have no mortage? you completely payed of your house? 80% of my relative has as well, but there 65+! I'm not so i can't buy a house without a mortage just like any other person on this planet who is not a millioniar.
So either you have a mortage (debt!) or your old enough to pay off that mortage. But still need to pay taxes to the government for the ground your sitting on.

either way, i'm done. Talking to a brick wall makes no sense.

Originally posted by Required01

Originally posted by GoalPoster
reply to post by Required01

Two guys walk into a bar.

Stopped reading after this.
2nd

And that's your choice, but to stimulate discussion on a discussion board, one must be open and respectful enough to at least listen (or in this case, read) the positions of all parties and to respectfully respond if you so choose.

Announcing to the world of ATS that one chooses not to bother with others' thoughts or opinions sheds a certain light on one's ability to discuss or otherwise post in a mature fashion, and to maybe . . . just maybe . . . see why the other party may not view the subject at hand in the same manner.

There is not one instance where I did not grant you that respect, rather I spent a few moments of my somewhat busy day to try to explain why I may not view this subject in the same light as you. Your response was . . . m'eh . . . which hardly adds to any type of discussion, be it intellectual or otherwise.

It's a shame, too, because I see and understand your point of view although I may not agree with it in totality. Regardless, hope to read more of your stuff in the future . . . until then . . . happy posting bubba.

Originally posted by GoalPoster
Blaming Greece is like blaming the first rock that tumbles down a hill for the carnage left from an avalanche.

You can carry on about Greece not accepting the wheelbarrels of cash to save their asses, but where is that cash coming from . . . seriously . . . where is it coming from?

Unless the whole world starts living within their means, it's a done deal across the board. But the 'systems' which rule our lives are all based on carpe deim . . . here and now . . . . whatcha-done-for-me-lately . . . live now, pay later . . . whatever the hell you want to call it.

Greece taking boatloads of dough to get outta the current mess is nothing more than that . . . the problems only go away temporarily but the root cause . . . living an unaffordable lifestyle . . . still exists.

The people of the world are addicted to spending and the banksters are the pushers for the Money Lords who are still sitting back making a profit off this whole mess.

And like good addicts, we aren't stopping our self-destructive behavior until we're forced to . . . until we hit rock bottom.

Unfortunately, we're not there yet . . . not even close. Greece is just leading the death spiral.

Absolutely, but do people understand what that means? If we are to start living within our means then most nations will be entering austerity - that is what people do not seem to understand.

Other problems with the global economy (ie introducing 'fair' capitalism) are separate issues.

Nations run on debt - it was the same in Roman times. The problem these days is that the structural deficits are simply too high and servicing the debt is now a struggle.

Time for highly paid and very clever economists to show just how clever they are and invent a new way out OR we all keep lurching from one crisis to another - one thing is clear, austerity is universally unpopular as we are all used to modern life and comforts thank you very much

Originally posted by GoalPoster

Originally posted by Required01

Originally posted by GoalPoster
reply to post by Required01

Two guys walk into a bar.

Stopped reading after this.
2nd

And that's your choice, but to stimulate discussion on a discussion board, one must be open and respectful enough to at least listen (or in this case, read) the positions of all parties and to respectfully respond if you so choose.

Announcing to the world of ATS that one chooses not to bother with others' thoughts or opinions sheds a certain light on one's ability to discuss or otherwise post in a mature fashion, and to maybe . . . just maybe . . . see why the other party may not view the subject at hand in the same manner.

There is not one instance where I did not grant you that respect, rather I spent a few moments of my somewhat busy day to try to explain why I may not view this subject in the same light as you. Your response was . . . m'eh . . . which hardly adds to any type of discussion, be it intellectual or otherwise.

It's a shame, too, because I see and understand your point of view although I may not agree with it in totality. Regardless, hope to read more of your stuff in the future . . . until then . . . happy posting bubba.

You really think i'm gonna read your wall of text that starts with "two guys walk into a bar"?
If you have a point just spell it out, don't try and make a metophor or joke out of it.

Honestly i can't be bothered to read that. Discussion is fine no problems with that. But not going to read a wall of text that starts with that. because my hopes of a valid point after a opener like that dratiscly reduces. therefor not going to waiste my time on that.

Again if you had a point tucked in there somewhere just say it and i will be gladly to discuss it with you and see what your view is.

I can't make up my mind whether the Greek PM is being cunning or stupid. Either way Greece will fail - part due to their profligacy at the expense of the EU and part due to the global economic meltdown. There is no either or. It's both.
Best they just default, go back to the drachma and get on with it. Otherwise we are pouring good money after bad. It'll come to us all - whatever Greece decides.

perhaps we will see the great divide between classes..

those who delve in the the high stakes world, the casino world of high finance


and the class of the poletariat, the serfs, the underclass that merely subsists in life instead of thriving
they will have to give up their freedoms/rights for the security of rationed lives, crumbs from the tables of the upperclass


it would seem ironic that the human condition comes full circle in the land of the Greeks who began their golden age in the mists of the past and now today, the top 1% return to their golden age II

reply to post by Required01


You are unreasonably aggressive, but I won't be making an issue about it. I linked you the original research study, because that's how it's done. If you want truth, you have to get to the source. If you are too busy following three simple steps, that doesn't change the truth of what I posted, it only adds to your ignorance.

Your logic is not the common one. It is not 82% of the population, it is 8% I correct you again. It is not measured the way you said, you probably made that up. Or do the U.S employ 83% of their population in the public sector???? Of course not. Read:

The debate over Greek public sector employment is characterised by a lack of real data and much stereotyping. In 2011, Greece’s public sector employment is 8% of the population and 18% of the active labour force. In the United States, public employment accounts for 7% of the total population and 15% of the labour force. Greece, however, has an extensive public provision of education and healthcare, whereas in the United States these functions are largely provide by the private sector. The OECD confirms this: "Greece has one of the lowest rates of public employment among OECD countries, with general government employing just 7.9% of the total labour force in 2008."

reply to post by Flavian


Bang on, bub.

Knocking down the standard of living to something more realistic and sustainable is something with which we are all going to have to come to grips but for many, stepping back from the filet mignon and scarfing a no-name hot dog now is a tough road to travel. For some, it's tantamount to going from 'living' to 'existing'. People will be surly, just as they are in Greece.

It's like being a spectator of a slow-motion 1000 car wreck and there's no way to hid from the debris.

Originally posted by Imogene72
reply to post by Required01

 

You are unreasonably aggressive, but I won't be making an issue about it. I linked you the original research study, because that's how it's done. If you want truth, you have to get to the source. If you are too busy following three simple steps, that doesn't change the truth of what I posted, it only adds to your ignorance.

Your logic is not the common one. It is not 82% of the population, it is 8% I correct you again. It is not measured the way you said, you probably made that up. Or do the U.S employ 83% of their population in the public sector???? Of course not. Read:

The debate over Greek public sector employment is characterised by a lack of real data and much stereotyping. In 2011, Greece’s public sector employment is 8% of the population and 18% of the active labour force. In the United States, public employment accounts for 7% of the total population and 15% of the labour force. Greece, however, has an extensive public provision of education and healthcare, whereas in the United States these functions are largely provide by the private sector. The OECD confirms this: "Greece has one of the lowest rates of public employment among OECD countries, with general government employing just 7.9% of the total labour force in 2008."

Seriously i'm done discussing with you, it's very very clear you're unable to read anyone reply. This is not rude nor agressive, this is FACT.

I NEVER once said in ANY post it was 82% of the population! You twist the words or seriously need to L2Read.
i said 82% of the WORKING PEOPLE OF GREECE!! Not the population.

18% works in the PRIVATE SECTOR at least that is what YOU claim.
So 82% THE REMAINER OF THE WORKING PEOPLE do NOT work in the PRIVATE SECTOR.
Therefor they have JOBS that are NOT in the PRIVATE SECTOR.

I give up with you, you can't even understand your own sources :S

"And now Greece is dragging us all down."

no a chance in hell .... I have to laugh as people really believe that a small country like Greece could bring down the world economy. The world fiat ponzi scheme is falling apart .....

you do realize that the debt which the Greeks are accused of owing are bank debts from deratives ....... this is the same thing that will happen shortly as Bank of America and Chase just moved trillions of deratives out of their investment banking unit to a Bank of America NA where now the FDIC will be liabel for the loss when they bankrupt ......

the USA is in much deeper debt than Greece

reply to post by Required01


Seriously??? You're done discussing with me? Oh, you've hurt my feelings! Listen, I agree you said it was 82% of the working population and not all the population. BUT THIS IS NOT TRUE, it says so on the link, if you had bothered to read it you would see:

The total population, according to the National Statistics Organisation (ELSTAT) was estimated at 11,257,290 in the first quarter of 2011. Thus, Greece’s public sector employment is 8% of the population, and 18% of the active labour force of the country. There was one public employee for every 13 citizens.

18% is not private sector employees, I never ever said that. I said it was public sector employees.
That percentage you so badly believe is 82%, is a mere 18%. I rest my case. I would have done that two replies ago if you had bothered to actually read the links all the way through.
And now I'm done discussing with you. At least I was kind enough to provide links that base what I am saying, unlike you.

reply to post by Imogene72


My last chance to let you see what your own source is saying.

General Government: - 705,645
Wider Public Sector: - 175,000
Total Public Sector Employment: - 880,645
Total Labour Force: - 4,967,200
Total Population: - 11,257,290

Public Sector Employment as:


% Total Population 8%
% Total Labour Force 18%


There work 880,645 out of 4,967,200 people in the public sector! That is AGAIN 18% if the total people who WORK IN GREECE.

So 3,486,555 people who are NOT working in the private sector is your 82%! These have jobs that are mostly government jobs!

Please tell me you understand now?

I thinks it's very wrong to blame Greece for the financial situation caused by International Banks.

Why should the public of any nation pay for the criminal behavior of banks.

In the real world, creditors and shareholders pay the price for mis-management,the business fails, it go's into liquidation, but here we have these crooks (bankers) externalizing their debts onto the public.

Anybody remember Iceland ? they refused to pay and allowed nature to take its course, the banks and creditors took the fall as they should.

Iceland is now recovering faster than any other nation affected by the "banking crisis".

Greece should tell the bankers and their Euro stooges, Merkel and Sarkozy where to stick it, default on the debt because it isn't their debt, it's the debt of the creditors and shareholders.

I'm struck by the outrage of Sarkozy and Merkel that Greece should choose to be democratic and actually ask it's people what to do, speaks volumes about the true nature of the political class who see us all as mere peons.

It also shows everybody in Europe that the Eurozone means France and Germany first.

The system is broken and corrupt, it should therefore meet its rightful consequence and be allowed to collapse, it won't be the end of the world, it will be a new beginning.

After the second world war, Europe was quite literally reduced to rubble, if we could come out of that and rebuild, we can get through this.

Let the banks fall.

Cosmic...

I dont think that greece will drag us all with them. Most certainly they will vote against the budget cuts necessary to go under the EFSF. When this happens they in principle get thrown out of the euro, default and greece brakes down. But i think this is it then, greece alone is not important enough t have really serious impact on the world economics, and when they dont have the euro anymore no one will care if they default.

reply to post by Cosmic4life


Exactly . . . unfortunately the hardest thing to rid the world of is greed. But, if we all hunker down and cut their supply lines, we'll be a better society for it.

Unfortunately, that probably won't happen and the beast will grow new and more tentacles in which to snare us common folk!

Originally posted by roswell1987
I dont think that greece will drag us all with them. Most certainly they will vote against the budget cuts necessary to go under the EFSF. When this happens they in principle get thrown out of the euro, default and greece brakes down. But i think this is it then, greece alone is not important enough t have really serious impact on the world economics, and when they dont have the euro anymore no one will care if they default.

Care to explain why the Euro markets are going down and keep going down after the PM released the info about the referendum?

But it doesn't affect our economy right?

reply to post by Cosmic4life


Greece lied about its finances to gain entry to the Eurozone. Member states didn't check the figures as they wanted Greece involved - fault on both parts there.

Greece employs more people in public services than it can afford to employ, has low retirement ages it cannot afford and quite simply collects pitiful amounts of tax - Greece's fault.

Im sorry, but the Greece situation cannot be blamed on the International Bankers. There is trans-european political blame and there is Greek domestic blame.

Lots that can be blamed on the murky world of international finance, such as 'corporate downsizing' etc but not this situation.