The Day of the Lord is Already Here. 2 Thessalonians 2:2

reply to post by jmdewey60

There are biblical specialist who concentrate on the Jubilee laws. You should think about reading some of their work, and you may know not to make such blithe statements such as this you posted.
We are set free, now, meaning we are not captives by fear of death, to Satan.
People die, and they go to heaven and God provides for them an incorruptible body. So how is it that you are claiming that is not taking place? Or you just want it right now? Do you think you are more deserving of that than every other saint who ever lived?

I am only saying that our salvation appears when Christ returns. Hebrews 9:28 says this.

Hebrews 9:28

28 so Christ was sacrificed once to take away the sins of many; and he will appear a second time, not to bear sin, but to bring salvation to those who are waiting for him.

Hebrews 10
11 Day after day every priest stands and performs his religious duties; again and again he offers the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins. 12 But when this priest had offered for all time one sacrifice for sins, he sat down at the right hand of God, 13 and since that time he waits for his enemies to be made his footstool. 14 For by one sacrifice he has made perfect forever those who are being made holy.

Revelation is the culmination of this when Christ returns and brings victory to those who, as stated in Hebrews 9, wait for Him.

How do you see it?

reply to post by SuperiorEd

I am only saying that our salvation appears when Christ returns.

Do you believe its possible that Christ has already returned in the hearts of men?

Since the dawning of the information age, the love of christ has spread across the world. For the first time ever we can research what he said without the bias of the churches looking over our shoulders.

You say salvation appears when he returns, well i tell you... Salvation comes with the realization of the absolute...

And we've talked about what that is before my friend...

Originally posted by Akragon
reply to post by SuperiorEd

 

I am only saying that our salvation appears when Christ returns.

Do you believe its possible that Christ has already returned in the hearts of men?

Since the dawning of the information age, the love of christ has spread across the world. For the first time ever we can research what he said without the bias of the churches looking over our shoulders.

You say salvation appears when he returns, well i tell you... Salvation comes with the realization of the absolute...

And we've talked about what that is before my friend...

True. Is time an illusion or is it temporal? There is the notion that 'now' is all that exists. We also have this verse to consider:

The Start of the preaching...

Luke 24:47
and repentance for the forgiveness of sins will be preached in his name to all nations, beginning at Jerusalem.

The end of the preaching...

Matthew 24:14
And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come.

I assume we are still in the church age of the gentiles salvation message.

Romans 16:26
but now revealed and made known through the prophetic writings by the command of the eternal God, so that all the Gentiles might come to the obedience that comes from faith—

Romans 11
11 Again I ask: Did they stumble so as to fall beyond recovery? Not at all! Rather, because of their transgression, salvation has come to the Gentiles to make Israel envious. 12 But if their transgression means riches for the world, and their loss means riches for the Gentiles, how much greater riches will their full inclusion bring!

25 I do not want you to be ignorant of this mystery, brothers and sisters, so that you may not be conceited: Israel has experienced a hardening in part until the full number of the Gentiles has come in, 26 and in this way[e] all Israel will be saved. As it is written:
“The deliverer will come from Zion;
he will turn godlessness away from Jacob.
27 And this is[f] my covenant with them
when I take away their sins.”

As it says, we do not need to be ignorant of the mystery. It's a day that is coming. The Day of the Lord is the one day when faith becomes fact and we see face to face.
1 Corinthians 13

11 When I was a child, I talked like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. When I became a man, I put the ways of childhood behind me. 12 For now we see only a reflection as in a mirror; then we shall see face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I am fully known.

13 And now these three remain: faith, hope and love. But the greatest of these is love.

We are children of God presently. We will be older after our salvation comes in and we return home as the prodigal son returning.

reply to post by SuperiorEd

Revelation is the culmination of this when Christ returns and brings victory to those who, as stated in Hebrews 9, wait for Him.

How do you see it?

I spent five or six hours last night studying that verse, Hebrews 9: 28, and I had spent a lot of hours on it about a month and a half ago, when SeekerLou brought up the same verse with me on the "God (more specifically. . . " thread.

I already said what I thought, and that the Greek word is a verb of seeing, not a verb of Jesus doing anything. The people who want to see him, do, that's what it says, and Revelation copies the same language from Hebrews, for the scene of the throne of God, with the Lamb "in the midst" of the throne, whatever that means, and some take it as the Lamb standing on the steps to the throne, a little lower than God, Himself.
If you think you see the Second Coming in Revelation, then let me know.
The "victory" is people coming out of the tribulation free of sin.
That does not mean they physically survive the tribulation, in fact I see the "washed in blood" reference as implying they do not survive physically . They come out of the tribulation in the same condition that Jesus came off the cross.

reply to post by SuperiorEd

True. Is time an illusion or is it temporal? There is the notion that 'now' is all that exists.

Time is man made my friend, time can not exist if theres no one there to percieve it...

What you say is truth... Now is all that can possibly exist... The past is our memories, fables, and history which is usually written by the winners... The future only exists in our hopes/dreams, and aspirations....

Even when we were present within our own past, it was Now... so in reality nothing exists apart from now...

The time where the gospel is "preached to all nations" is here, right now... though i tell you the "end" is no where in sight... it is the beginning of things to come.

Perhaps even a new age where truth is the rule of the law, not deceit...

I've heard tell of this 4th demention we're apparently moving into in which we all gain some sort of ability to see truth. Even a time where lies within public officials will be exposed because lies are not possible when we can all see truth...

What is to come i do not know, but i do know the end is not near...

Its only the beginning

reply to post by jmdewey60


I found a really nice site that offers multiple versions on each verse of the Bible. I will use this site often. Here is what the scholars say:

Greek: outos kai o Christos, hapax prosenechtheis (APPMSN) eis to pollon anenegkein (AAN) amartias, ek deuterou choris hamartias ophthesetai (3SFPI) tois auton apekdechomenois (PMPMPD) eis soterian.

Amplified: Even so it is that Christ, having been offered to take upon Himself and bear as a burden the sins of many once and once for all, will appear a second time, not to carry any burden of sin nor to deal with sin, but to bring to full salvation those who are [eagerly, constantly, and patiently] waiting for and expecting Him. (Amplified

Bible - Lockman)

Barclay: so Christ, after being once and for all sacrificed to bear the burden of the sins of many, will appear a second time, not this time to deal with sin, but for the salvation of those who are waiting for him. (Westminster Press)

NLT: so also Christ died only once as a sacrifice to take away the sins of many people. He will come again but not to deal with our sins again. This time he will bring salvation to all those who are eagerly waiting for him. (NLT - Tyndale House)

Phillips: so it is certain that Christ was offered once to bear the sins of many and after that, to those who look for him, he will appear a second time, not this time to deal with sin, but to bring them to full salvation. (Phillips: Touchstone)

Wuest: thus also the Messiah once was offered for the purpose of bearing the sins of many; a second time apart from sin shall He be manifested to those who eagerly wait for Him [Israel], resulting in salvation. (Eerdmans)

Young's Literal: so also the Christ, once having been offered to bear the sins of many, a second time, apart from a sin-offering, shall appear, to those waiting for him -- to salvation!

LINK

The commentary says this:

Man’s life and work on earth end with death. The results only remain, as determined by divine judgment. So also the death of Christ is final. There was nothing further to be done by sacrifice for sin. The finality of His one offering for sin is corroborated by the analogy of human life. He will return, but to salvation and quite apart from sin. Christ having taken upon Himself human nature, without sin, was offered voluntarily in sacrifice, once, and once only, and now all who believe are delivered from judgment. He will instead bring salvation to them at His appearing. Accordingly, the appearing of Christ for the salvation of His people is set in contrast to the judgment of the unregenerate. That He will appear a second time is the main statement of the last verse.

What I am saying is that we must be born again, as Jesus states in John 3. We will all be here for our salvation as the sheep are separated from the goats. All eyes will see. The dead in Christ will rise first. Does this mean that we stop being born into the water when we find salvation? I think yes. We are then the dead in Christ who rise first into the 1000 year kingdom to a new glorified body; into the body that cannot die. To me, "you must be born again is not an option." It is the rule of life.

This is an interpretation. We cannot know until we look back and connect the dots. This is why the Bible calls it a mystery.

reply to post by SuperiorEd

1) We are currently in bondage until Christ comes.

I'm guessing you are going to show some evidence of this bondage.

a. We are waiting. Hebrews 9:28 so Christ was sacrificed once to take away the sins of many; and he will appear a second time, not to bear sin, but to bring salvation to those who are waiting for him.

The passage you are referring to does not have the word, sacrifice, in it. Some version might insert that into the translation but it would be artificial. The Greek word means something moved forward, the implication being that it is done so in way as a presentation. A further interpretive meaning can be derived from that to be a presentation as in a gift or offering. What the verse says is that Jesus was "brought forward" bearing sin, the sins "of many". There is an illusion made that compares it to the sort of judgement we might expect after this life is over.
I have not done an exhaustive study as yet to verify my interpretation but I am building an index of word usage to see if my theory bears out, that what you call a sacrifice, is actually a judgement, which to me would go with the Suffering Servant prophecy which seems to be the central OT prophecy concerning Jesus and our salvation.
You seem to have read the verse, then turn it all into what fits what you already believe, ignoring what it really says. The word is the same word where we get the name of the OT book, Deuteronomy. The first time with sin, the second time without. Salvation is a concept, as Sin was a concept a bit earlier. One is the appearance of inspection as of judgement, the other is an appearance as the personification of Salvation in the eyes of those who finally are physically saved, in heaven, in their incorruptible bodies.
I really don't know how I can make this any clearer.

reply to post by Akragon

The time where the gospel is "preached to all nations" is here, right now... though i tell you the "end" is no where in sight... it is the beginning of things to come.

Think of the Blue Oyster Cult song, Don't Fear the Reaper, "forty thousand men and women every day".
Heaven and the courts of heaven are busy processing everyone through. We don't know when the angels will say, "We have enough, now."

reply to post by jmdewey60


Do you believe theres "limited" room in the afterlife?

I don't believe that day will ever come my friend...

As you know im not one to quote paul... but for this situation i will break my own rules...

1I exhort therefore, that, first of all, supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks, be made for all men;

2For kings, and for all that are in authority; that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and honesty.

3For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour;

4Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.

Originally posted by jmdewey60
reply to post by SuperiorEd

 

1) We are currently in bondage until Christ comes.

I'm guessing you are going to show some evidence of this bondage.

a. We are waiting. Hebrews 9:28 so Christ was sacrificed once to take away the sins of many; and he will appear a second time, not to bear sin, but to bring salvation to those who are waiting for him.

The passage you are referring to does not have the word, sacrifice, in it. Some version might insert that into the translation but it would be artificial. The Greek word means something moved forward, the implication being that it is done so in way as a presentation. A further interpretive meaning can be derived from that to be a presentation as in a gift or offering. What the verse says is that Jesus was "brought forward" bearing sin, the sins "of many". There is an illusion made that compares it to the sort of judgement we might expect after this life is over.
I have not done an exhaustive study as yet to verify my interpretation but I am building an index of word usage to see if my theory bears out, that what you call a sacrifice, is actually a judgement, which to me would go with the Suffering Servant prophecy which seems to be the central OT prophecy concerning Jesus and our salvation.
You seem to have read the verse, then turn it all into what fits what you already believe, ignoring what it really says. The word is the same word where we get the name of the OT book, Deuteronomy. The first time with sin, the second time without. Salvation is a concept, as Sin was a concept a bit earlier. One is the appearance of inspection as of judgement, the other is an appearance as the personification of Salvation in the eyes of those who finally are physically saved, in heaven, in their incorruptible bodies.
I really don't know how I can make this any clearer.

edit on 31-10-2011 by jmdewey60 because: (no reason given)

Here is a video to show good context.

reply to post by Akragon

Do you believe theres "limited" room in the afterlife?

I think it is difficult enough just to understand what we are supposed to be doing, so we don't need to be giving God and Jesus and heaven and the angels orders.

Originally posted by jmdewey60
reply to post by Akragon

 

Do you believe theres "limited" room in the afterlife?

I think it is difficult enough just to understand what we are supposed to be doing, so we don't need to be giving God and Jesus and heaven and the angels orders.

I don't see whats so difficult about understanding what we're here to do.... though i'd hardly give them orders either...

Im just saying, i think theres plenty of seating room in the afterlife...... somehow i don't think they'll close the doors...

reply to post by Akragon
There is this verse that some people make a big deal about:
Romans 11:25 (Analytical-Literal Translation of the New Testament: Third Edition)
25For I do not desire [for] you* to be unaware, brothers [and sisters], of this secret [or, mystery], so that you* shall not be wise in your* own conceits, that hardness in part [fig., partial stubbornness] has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles comes in.

* – Indicates the original is plural

I don't know if that is an actual, literal, finite, number, or if it is just figurative. That is the purpose of this thread, to determine if that even makes sense. I was born into a Seventh Day Adventist home and am still officially a member of my local congregation. We understood that there is a judgement of all the souls from Adam, on down, going on in heave, in order of when each person died. Once it gets through to those still living, then the end comes because judgement is done. It sort of makes sense in a way but in another it doesn't. If I read the NT and leave out all the eschatological books like Revelation, what it looks like is people become better, and the world becomes better, period.
Then, seeing that is how it works, theologically, then when you read things like Revelation, it just is an allegorical way to put it, although a rather convoluted sort of way to put it and prone to misinterpretation.

Originally posted by boymonkey74
reply to post by jmdewey60

 

And if he does come back he is sure going to be angry with Religions which carry his name.

The only religion he is going to be angry with is Catholicism, because they have forgotten their first love, Jesus Christ and they put a mere man in his place with which men bow down to and kiss the ring of in worship. There are those of us who remain true to him. Jesus did intend for christianity to be a religion, he set it up that way before he ascended and it began on the day of pentecost and was spread largely by Paul and Barnabus (Barnabus was a disciple, he knew what Jesus wanted and intended). Christendom is the monster that Jesus will have his reckoning with.

reply to post by lonewolf19792000


Hell no He didn't intend Christianity to be a "religion". He intended it to be about a personal relationship with Him.

""I have often said that to speak and judge rightly in this matter we must carefully distinguish between a pious (religious) man and a Christian."

Martin Luther

Christianity is NOT Religion

Originally posted by NOTurTypical
reply to post by lonewolf19792000

 

Hell no He didn't intend Christianity to be a "religion". He intended it to be about a personal relationship with Him.

""I have often said that to speak and judge rightly in this matter we must carefully distinguish between a pious (religious) man and a Christian."

Martin Luther

Christianity is NOT Religion

It can be a personal relationship as well as a religion. An institution had to be created in order to spread the word more efficiently and that was what the church of Antioch was all about. Unfortunately the catholic botched it up horribly. That plan went awry when Rome co-opted christianity, they did spread the name of Jesus but they corrupted his message and used it for their own purposes and skewed away from what Jesus had intended.

Jesus was the one that set Paul into motion with the creation of a physical church body that could more expediently send out missionaries to perform Christ's will and minister to the masses with the help of the Holy Spirit and his miracles. The word was originally meant to have been spread to the world by the jews but they refused and so Paul gave the task to the gentiles because they accepted it when the jews did not.

reply to post by SuperiorEd

28 so Christ was sacrificed once to take away the sins of many; and he will appear a second time, not to bear sin, but to bring salvation to those who are waiting for him.

Those that will still be waiting for Christ will be those believers still alive who have survived the anti-christ's purge of believers, the ones that get left behind when Jesus calls up his bride in the rapture. There will still be people getting saved during the great tribulation even after the Holy Spirit has been removed from the world.

Originally posted by lonewolf19792000
reply to post by SuperiorEd

 

28 so Christ was sacrificed once to take away the sins of many; and he will appear a second time, not to bear sin, but to bring salvation to those who are waiting for him.

Those that will still be waiting for Christ will be those believers still alive who have survived the anti-christ's purge of believers, the ones that get left behind when Jesus calls up his bride in the rapture. There will still be people getting saved during the great tribulation even after the Holy Spirit has been removed from the world.

The second coming of Christ is well defined:

Matthew 24:42-44 (NIV) "Therefore keep watch, because you do not know on what day your Lord will come. But understand this: If the owner of the house had known at what time of night the thief was coming, he would have kept watch and would not have let his house be broken into. So you also must be ready, because the Son of Man will come at an hour when you do not expect him."

Matthew 24:36 (NIV) "No one knows about that day or hour, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father."

Acts 2:19-21 (NIV) "I will show wonders in the heaven above and signs on the earth below, blood and fire and billows of smoke. The sun will be turned to darkness and the moon to blood before the coming of the great and glorious day of the Lord. And everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved."

1 Thessalonians 5:1-4 (NIV) Now, brothers, about times and dates we do not need to write to you, for you know very well that the day of the Lord will come like a thief in the night. While people are saying, "Peace and safety," destruction will come on them suddenly, as labor pains on a pregnant woman, and they will not escape. But you, brothers, are not in darkness so that this day should surprise you like a thief.

Now, fit Hebrews in there again.

28 so Christ was sacrificed once to take away the sins of many; and he will appear a second time, not to bear sin, but to bring salvation to those who are waiting for him.

2 Peter 3:9

8 But do not forget this one thing, dear friends: With the Lord a day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years are like a day. 9 The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. Instead he is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance.

Epistle of Barnabas

Barnabas 15:3
Of the Sabbath He speaketh in the beginning of the creation; And
God made the works of His hands in six days, and He ended on the
seventh day, and rested on it, and He hallowed it.

Barnabas 15:4
Give heed, children, what this meaneth; He ended in six days. He
meaneth this, that in six thousand years the Lord shall bring all
things to an end; for the day with Him signifyeth a thousand years;
and this He himself beareth me witness, saying; Behold, the day of
the Lord shall be as a thousand years. Therefore, children, in six
days, that is in six thousand years, everything shall come to an end.

In Genesis 1, God created the image of creation. In Genesis 2, it was produced into material reality. This was 6 days and then God rested. Man fell and then the next week starts. 6000 years pass and the next rest is coming when Jesus raises his temple on the third day and reigns.

19 Jesus answered them, “Destroy this temple, and I will raise it again in three days.”

reply to post by lonewolf19792000

An institution had to be created in order to spread the word more efficiently and that was what the church of Antioch was all about. Unfortunately the catholic botched it up horribly. That plan went awry when Rome co-opted christianity, they did spread the name of Jesus but they corrupted his message and used it for their own purposes and skewed away from what Jesus had intended.

There never needed to be an institution.
The original churches were not institutions. Nothing like that existed before the Apostles were all dead.
I was just reading an article today but can't remember now where I found it but it was about the spread of Christianity in Ireland and needed no outside influence and happened organically.

reply to post by lonewolf19792000

Those that will still be waiting for Christ will be those believers still alive who have survived the anti-christ's purge of believers, the ones that get left behind when Jesus calls up his bride in the rapture. There will still be people getting saved during the great tribulation even after the Holy Spirit has been removed from the world.

This looks like a cooked-up eschatology.
Is it based on the Bible?
If so, do you know what verses?