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Justice Dept. proposes lying, hiding existence of records under new FOIA rule

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posted on Oct, 25 2011 @ 12:17 PM
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Justice Dept. proposes lying, hiding existence of records under new FOIA rule


A proposed revision to Freedom of Information Act rules would allow federal agencies to lie to citizens and reporters seeking certain records, telling them the records don’t exist.

The Justice Department has proposed the change as part of a large revision of FOIA rules for federal agencies. Specifically, the rule would direct government agencies who are denying a request under an established FOIA exemption to “respond to the request as if the excluded records did not exist,” rather than citing the relevant exemption.

The proposed rule has alarmed government transparency advocates across the political spectrum, who’ve called it “Orwellian” and say it will “twist” public access to government.


Read more: dailycaller.com...


Click link for rest of article...



posted on Oct, 25 2011 @ 12:17 PM
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Normally I try to pull from MSM sources. Foxnews covered this a few minutes ago so there is definitely something to the story. The ACLU is taking up the cause to have the DOJ essentially slpped down for doing this. Under current memos from the DOJ, they have apparently directed staff to essentially lie when certain FOIA requests came in. I usually have no desire to deal with the ACLU because of their stance on, well, a lot of issues however in this case I find myself on their side.

What the DOJ is wanting is to actually modify the law to allow government employees who deal with FOIA requests to be able to legally lie about information in order to deny the request.

At what point do we the people put pressure on our representatives to end this type of behavior? Having it come from the upper ecehlons of the Department of Justice, the people respoinsible for enforcing Federal Law, is not surprising with some of the other stunts they have pulled, most recently operation fast and furious.

Time for not only a new head of the DOJ, but a law that would prevent any government agency from lieing when it comes to FOIA requests.
edit on 25-10-2011 by Xcathdra because: (no reason given)



posted on Oct, 25 2011 @ 12:26 PM
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That is some scary stuff, if this goes down the way they want it will be the end of life as we know it. What is to say they can stop at documents after that? Can you imagine someday a family member gets picked up and when you ask about them they deny everything. This just CANNOT happen.



posted on Oct, 25 2011 @ 12:29 PM
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There we go... Orwell will be smiling from his grave..
.. protect the System at any cost... jail decent..



posted on Oct, 25 2011 @ 12:30 PM
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reply to post by Xcathdra
 


You know it is foul isn't it. Makes me think of people pretending at times that we haven't lost any of our rights or freedoms?
The Government cheerleaders who are the first to defend the crooks and then the last to find out they are on a loosing cheerleader team.



posted on Oct, 25 2011 @ 12:39 PM
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Of course these scumbags want to hide their dirty dealings. It's been proven time and time again that this administration, the prior administration, and many other even before them were into illegal activities. I'm shocked it's taken this long for them to try something like this. But, hey, as long as we have our X-boxes and Dancing with the Stars all will be fine.



posted on Oct, 25 2011 @ 12:49 PM
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Originally posted by CherubBaby
reply to post by Xcathdra
 


You know it is foul isn't it. Makes me think of people pretending at times that we haven't lost any of our rights or freedoms?
The Government cheerleaders who are the first to defend the crooks and then the last to find out they are on a loosing cheerleader team.


Im not sure whats worse, lossing rights or completely and totally failing to understand a thread by failure to read and compreghend what its discussing. Oh well, just like there and hear, we have people more intrested in scoring political points instead of engaging the topic.

And people who do nothing but complain about government cheerleaders yet take absolutely no positive action to correct the injustice are just as bad as those wanting to allow the DOJ to lie to the people.


So how about we set aside the inccorect perceptions, and deal with the topic? Maybe suggest people contact their reps and voice their concerns about this topic, while also trying to gain support to have Mr. Holder impeached.

I dunno, thats seems more proactive and responsbiel than just dissing each other.. What do you think?



posted on Oct, 25 2011 @ 12:50 PM
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Originally posted by navy_vet_stg3
Of course these scumbags want to hide their dirty dealings. It's been proven time and time again that this administration, the prior administration, and many other even before them were into illegal activities. I'm shocked it's taken this long for them to try something like this. But, hey, as long as we have our X-boxes and Dancing with the Stars all will be fine.


Im still trying to figure out where Obama supporters are with the whole transparency promise. He stated this would be the most transparent government in history, and we have seen anything but that.

Are we giving him the benefiet of the doubt that when he took office he realized the complexity of the situation was way more than what people know, requiring the secrecy or is it something else?



posted on Oct, 25 2011 @ 01:00 PM
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What do you mean? It *is* the most transparent administration. Don't forget 1984 and New-speak. War is peace, love is hate, and all that. Of course it's "transparent'. When big brother says 2+2=5, you'd not only better believe it, you'd better KNOW it to be fact.


As to your second point, I think it's a combination of both. What happens at the higher levels isn't like going to a 9 to 5 job. Look at him now, after just 2-3/4 years. He's gone totally gray, and he doesn't look good. Same thing happened to Bush Jr., Clinton, et-al. I've got a feeling that the tentacles of the U.S. are far reaching and the information that the President becomes privileged to changes all of their preconceived notions. There are things that should be kept secret, but when it comes to criminal activity of any administration, then it needs to be in the open (unless disclosure will cost American lives).


Originally posted by Xcathdra
Im still trying to figure out where Obama supporters are with the whole transparency promise. He stated this would be the most transparent government in history, and we have seen anything but that.

Are we giving him the benefiet of the doubt that when he took office he realized the complexity of the situation was way more than what people know, requiring the secrecy or is it something else?



posted on Oct, 25 2011 @ 01:18 PM
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Originally posted by navy_vet_stg3
There are things that should be kept secret, but when it comes to criminal activity of any administration, then it needs to be in the open (unless disclosure will cost American lives).



The ever present and all debilitating catch 22.

What information that could be considered criminal, when relased into the public realm, will have what unforseen consequences on the American people, possibly placing them or national security intrests in jeoprady.

I get the need for secrecy, especially in todays world where the enemy doesnt play by the same rules as the rest of the world. It reminds me of the test the navy did some time ago where they pitted an F-14 against a wwII prop plane. Everyone knew the outcome, and were dumfounded when the F-14 lost the battle.

Sometimes the most advanced technology can be defeated by caves and rocks. When we rely so much on technology, and we fight an enemy who is not dependant on it, and can live off the land better than any southerner in the Us ever could, its a game changer for sure.

However, the DOJ allowing people to lie when it comes to FOIA requests undermines the the point of FOIA and its intent. That a government should have no secrets when it comes to their own citizens. There are already a list of exceptions built into FOIA that allows a denial when it touches on sensitive, ongoing investigations or a matter of natioanl security.

If it does not meet the exception criteria, then there is no reason to deny the request.

It reminds me of the dialogue ou of the Tom clancy novel Executive orders when the President and his chief of staff are talking about the leaking of Supreme Court nominess.

The President asked who leaked the info and the response he got was we will never know, and trying to find out will only make you look like Nixon.

Im in favor of common sense over a law that allows a person to lie in order to deny a FOIA request. If they can get that codified, there is no telling how it could be used, or expanded, to cover other agencies and people. That is a sliipery slope that we dont want to even be near.



posted on Oct, 25 2011 @ 01:39 PM
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reply to post by Xcathdra
 


I agree completely. I'm tired of the lies, hiding of evidence, and outright criminal activity at the top (and this includes prior administrations as well).



posted on Oct, 25 2011 @ 01:45 PM
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This is great. More semantic war against the people.

Sure, you have the freedom to request information. And we have the responsibility to supply you with information. Whether or not it's correct, factual, or just some BBQ sauce on an old napkin is irrelevant. Information has been supplied as per your request. Oh, by the way, we've stuck you in a database for making your request. Have a nice day.



posted on Oct, 25 2011 @ 01:48 PM
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Originally posted by navy_vet_stg3
reply to post by Xcathdra
 


I agree completely. I'm tired of the lies, hiding of evidence, and outright criminal activity at the top (and this includes prior administrations as well).


i agree, however FOIA requests arent going to fix the problem. The people must get off their buts and participate in government at all levels. They must hold our elected officals accountible, and must fire them when they do a bad job, or vote them back in if they are doing a good job.

People must understand, and get it through to their political affiliation, that we live in a countroy of over 300 million people, which means we will have trillions of suggestions and ideas to fix things. Where people get lost is believeing that a political affiliation is more important than being a citizen of this country.

When we stop accepting more than one idea, then the great experiment that is our government, has failed. We are all citizens first, regardless of political affiliation, which means the people and country MUST come first over partisan politics.

So long as eleceted officals can use that as a wedge to distract the American people, we wont ge tthe changes we must have to go forward - and to be succesful, both as a country, and as a people.


edit on 25-10-2011 by Xcathdra because: (no reason given)



posted on Oct, 25 2011 @ 02:14 PM
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reply to post by Xcathdra
 


The rest of the world doesnt play fare? are you kidding me, nobody plays by the rules

The need for secrecy, because if information gets out, it could be detrimental to the national securtiy?
Hmmmm....no, lol. There should be complete transparency, that way the stance and motives are well known. If you want to change something or someone, playing backdoor games only make matters worse.

What, if the initiatives are exposed, the opposition will be better prepared?
Well that's bogus, because if your means of dealing with this opposition are sooo superior, and you spend all the tax payers money and place them in debt for the entirety of their lives and their childrens lives, well you should be able to overcome any possible means of preparation.

Afraid of pre-emptive strikes if said information is released?
Well too darn bad, you made the descision to try and change the lives of other people....I'm a fan of Life, Liberty, and the Pursuit of Happiness.... Well, let them have life, they are at liberty to express themselves, and they are pursuing their own Happiness with in their soveirgn boarders. If we didn't run around, imposing our will on other countries, simply because they wont play ball with the emerging NWO, well that should be respected.

There's other means than war, it's called Tarrifs, trade, and commerce.... It's called no more foreign aid, seclusion.... It's not conducive to attaining results that reflect the initiative of providing freedoms with in a countries respective boarders.

These policies are disgusting, and it will never be soon enough that Ron Paul will become president...



posted on Oct, 25 2011 @ 02:23 PM
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reply to post by Xcathdra
 


Just when I thought things couldn't possibly get any more weird. "Ministry of In-Justice"? What the deuce.



posted on Oct, 25 2011 @ 02:24 PM
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reply to post by Xcathdra
 


300 Million people, and a Trillion amount of suggestions on how to fix things...

MAYBE we should stop running around and adding a bunch of bells and whistles to a machine that is supposed to have limited responsibilities in the first place.

People need to stop trying to fix everything, stop demonizing eachother, adding non-stop regulatory and over all laws that aren't necessary in the first place...

remember, todays laws of conveinance that are justified in the name of justice, are tomorrows means of stripping the freedoms for a tyrant



posted on Oct, 25 2011 @ 02:27 PM
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reply to post by Xcathdra
 



The people must get off their buts and participate in government at all levels. They must hold our elected officals accountible, and must fire them when they do a bad job, or vote them back in if they are doing a good job.


No, it's the entire system of Government that's corrupt..
There's no point voting in more of the same until we change the system..

Looking more and more like that police state you say doesn't exist IMO..



posted on Oct, 25 2011 @ 03:11 PM
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reply to post by MESSAGEFROMTHESTARS
 


The it obviously would fall under the alrady established list of exemptions to a FOIA request. Whats being dicussed are items that are not covered under the FOIA expemtions. Essentially we could theorize any anda ll information relating to the fast and furious program.



posted on Oct, 25 2011 @ 03:12 PM
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Originally posted by MESSAGEFROMTHESTARS
reply to post by Xcathdra
 


300 Million people, and a Trillion amount of suggestions on how to fix things...

MAYBE we should stop running around and adding a bunch of bells and whistles to a machine that is supposed to have limited responsibilities in the first place.

People need to stop trying to fix everything, stop demonizing eachother, adding non-stop regulatory and over all laws that aren't necessary in the first place...

remember, todays laws of conveinance that are justified in the name of justice, are tomorrows means of stripping the freedoms for a tyrant


which is just one of the reason I posted this. If you check my other threads you would clearly see im for a smaller more accountible government.



posted on Oct, 25 2011 @ 03:14 PM
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Originally posted by backinblack
reply to post by Xcathdra
 



The people must get off their buts and participate in government at all levels. They must hold our elected officals accountible, and must fire them when they do a bad job, or vote them back in if they are doing a good job.


No, it's the entire system of Government that's corrupt..
There's no point voting in more of the same until we change the system..

Looking more and more like that police state you say doesn't exist IMO..


When you become a US citizen and actually understand our government and politics,let alone actually visit this country, then I might care about your opinion. Until then, feel free to continue your trooling *(need the link again on that word?) and contiued BS about a police state.




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