I need a home made CO2 Scrubber. Any ideas?

reply to post by Rocketman7

OK, I stand corrected. They do make commercial CO2 sensors. That's the first one I have seen.

But the question still remains: why are you concerned about CO2 levels? As long as sufficient oxygen is available, CO2 is not harmful in the least at levels up to 5000 ppm. The atmosphere is less than 400 ppm. That is a LOT of CO2 before it even begins to affect those most sensitive to it, and even 5000 ppm is only slightly irritating and far from dangerous.

Chlorine gas, on the other hand, is a dangerous chemical. In order to remove it as you are talking about, it would have to be bubbled through water in as small bubbles as is practical, probably several times, in order to convert the gaseous chlorine to HCl. That water would then have to be introduced to the NaOH solution to allow the NaCl to precipitate and returned to accept more chlorine. In the process, any remaining NaOH would need to be removed.

In short, you are talking about a very complex system with several tanks, filters, and pumps (all of which would have to be chemically-resistant), and a large supply of sodium hydroxide... which ca itself be hazardous if not handled properly.

You'd be better off driving somewhere else.

TheRedneck

Originally posted by TheRedneck
reply to post by Rocketman7

OK, I stand corrected. They do make commercial CO2 sensors. That's the first one I have seen.

But the question still remains: why are you concerned about CO2 levels? As long as sufficient oxygen is available, CO2 is not harmful in the least at levels up to 5000 ppm. The atmosphere is less than 400 ppm. That is a LOT of CO2 before it even begins to affect those most sensitive to it, and even 5000 ppm is only slightly irritating and far from dangerous.

Chlorine gas, on the other hand, is a dangerous chemical. In order to remove it as you are talking about, it would have to be bubbled through water in as small bubbles as is practical, probably several times, in order to convert the gaseous chlorine to HCl. That water would then have to be introduced to the NaOH solution to allow the NaCl to precipitate and returned to accept more chlorine. In the process, any remaining NaOH would need to be removed.

In short, you are talking about a very complex system with several tanks, filters, and pumps (all of which would have to be chemically-resistant), and a large supply of sodium hydroxide... which ca itself be hazardous if not handled properly.

You'd be better off driving somewhere else.

TheRedneck

I agree. High ground.

Take a look at the map

SO Victoria is there Port Angeles to the south, the pulp mills are to the west of Port Angeles and from about 10 miles west to the rest of that land every day that entire area is covered with thick grey smog from a few huge pulp mills there.
I don't even know why the wind takes it that way.

But then from Sept to November when the air starts to cool, it spreads out and some of it reaches Victoria.

I am wondering if the chlorine stays low, that means it will drift low across the water, could that reduce the risk just because it is drifting low across the water?
Will it lose its caustic effect?

Well. in a way its a blessing that the tanks will all bleed off the day the generators stop working.
And even if it is for a week, at least when its over, its over.

Chlorine is the worst hazard, even worse than nuclear fallout or China Syndrome. Radiation might kill you, but over a 30 year period. Chlorine kills right away.

If you are outside 20km of a nuclear plant, you aren't in much danger. You just have to be able to wash off fallout and have a Geiger counter and radiation badge.

If you are getting lots of radiation, you need to move.

So then about CO2, when it does become a problem, you blackout. And then you die because since you are blacked out, you cannot remedy the situation.

So if you are in a city, and lets say in a Brink's truck like the one we are discussing and you close the vents because the city is on fire and you don't want to get smoke inhalation you then will be re-breathing the air in the cab. You can crack an oxygen bottle and let it slowly vent into the cab, and the positive pressure vent outside teh truck with a flap arrangement. The pressure pushes open a flap to let pressure out, not in.

Now if you are a firefighter fighting a fire, do you know how long your tank will last?

45 minutes and some up to 2.75 hours if you were sitting down. So you can live for the next 3 hours at the most.

Now that should be enough time to vacate the area, but if the truck won't start or it is stuck in the mud, you have 3 hours left before you will die.

3 hours in a spaceship is just enough time to write a suicide note.

That truck is your spaceship.

Outside that truck it might be a bio-weapon, that is airborne. It might be that there are so many dead the air is foul with death and bacteria on the breeze is deadly. You sure don't want the smell of death in your truck if you can help it. Even if it is not full of airborne disease which it will be until the bodies rot away.

Your air filtration can kill most forms of bio-hazard and even destroy chemicals, so really then you are just down to re-breathing, to extend your oxygen tank to its maximum. In case you need it.

Even if you don't black out, CO2 will give you headaches and prevent you from thinking clearly.

Getting rid of the CO2 or reducing it, will make the environment safer and more pleasant.

Probably sodalime would be at least of some benefit. Slaked Lime mixed with Lye

So now then the ingredients are easy to come by, what can we do with them to make sodalime and remove CO2 with it?

In 1000 cubic feet. 10x10x10 one person can live 17 hours. The last few will be nasty but you won't die until 17 hours.

2 people will last 8 or 9 hours. 3 people will last 5 hours. If you are excited, and breathing hard, cut those figures in half. If zombies are pounding on your truck, you will be excited.

T = Number of hours of air in a sealed room
(Volume of air inside the room in cubic feet) x (3% or 0.03)
T = ---------------------------------------------------------
(Number of people) x (one person's hourly production of CO2)

Concentration of CO2 in caving

0.03% Nothing happens as this is the normal carbon dioxide concentration in air.
0.5% Lung ventilation increases by 5 percent. This is the maximum safe working level recommended for an 8 hour working day in industry (Australian Standard).
1.0% Symptoms may begin to occur, such as feeling hot and clammy, lack of attention to details, fatigue, anxiety, clumsiness and loss of energy, which is commonly first noticed as a weakness in the knees (jelly legs).
2.0% Lung ventilation increases by 50 percent, headache after several hours exposure.

Accumulation of carbon dioxide in the body after prolonged breathing of air containing around 2% or greater will disturb body function by causing the tissue fluids to become too acidic. This will result in loss of energy and feeling run-down even after leaving the cave. It may take the person up to several days in a good environment for the body metabolism to return to normal.
3.0% Lung ventilation increases by 100 percent, panting after exertion, Symptoms may include:- headaches, dizziness and possible vision disturbance such as speckled stars.
5 - 10% Violent panting and fatigue to the point of exhaustion merely from respiration & severe headache. Prolonged exposure at 5% could result in irreversible effects to health. Prolonged exposure at > 6% could result in unconsciousness and death.
10 - 15% Intolerable panting, severe headaches and rapid exhaustion. Exposure for a few minutes will result in unconsciousness and suffocation without warning.
25% to 30% Extremely high concentrations will cause coma and convulsions within one minute of exposure. Certain Death.

Generally accepted physiological effects of reduced O2 concentrations.

O2 % by volume. Symptoms

reduced from 21 to 14% First perceptible signs with increased rate and volume of breathing, accelerated pulse rate and diminished ability to maintain attention.

between 14 to 10% Consciousness continues, but judgment becomes faulty. Rapid fatigue following exertion. Emotions effected, in particularly ill temper is easily aroused.

10 to 6% Can cause nausea and vomiting. Loss of ability to perform any vigorous movement or even move at all. Often the victim may not be aware that anything is wrong until collapsing and being unable to walk or crawl. Even if resuscitation is possible, there may be permanent brain damage.

below 6% Gasping breath. Convulsive movements may occur. Breathing stops, but heart may continue beating for a few minutes - ultimately death.

As it turns out, a 10 X 10 X 10 foot space, or 1,000 cubic feet, will be filled with a lethal concentration of CO2 by one resting human sized individual in just 24 hours. (The CO2 level reaches about 1% in that time). Moderate activity will cut this time to 12 hours, and strenuous activity to 6 hours.

Outside the truck, during the apocalypse, you have to assume that the atmosphere may not be breathable where you are. It might be chemical fires, or who knows what. In the case of a chemical fire, you might need to breath just a bit to die.
It might be that poisonous.

You might smell something, get a headache and then die. If you have sensing equipment, you might be able to close the vents, or if you see a toxic cloud of smoke ahead or coming your way, you could close the vents.

With a 100 pound oxygen tank, if you crack it just a bit, you could last in there for a lot longer.

I will see if I can do the calculation but you still need to scrub the CO2 or else all the oxygen won't help you.

You will still black out and die in the same 17 hours at rest, one person, in a Brink's truck sealed environment.

3 People 5 hours. Under stress, 3 hours.

So in this case I have to assume without some sort of fix, we would last 3 hours, since it will be a 3 person vehicle.

Regarding my plan to use HHO to create oxygen in a pinch, little did I know that is how they create oxygen on the space station.

"The primary source of oxygen will be water electrolysis, followed by O2 in a pressurized storage tank," said Jay Perry, an aerospace engineer at NASA's Marshall Space Flight Center working on the Environmental Control and Life Support Systems (ECLSS) project. ECLSS engineers at Marshall, at the Johnson Space Center and elsewhere are developing, improving and testing primary life support systems for the ISS.

Most of the station's oxygen will come from a process called "electrolysis," which uses electricity from the ISS solar panels to split water into hydrogen gas and oxygen gas.

Another backup plan...

"Last week, while the crew were waiting for activation of a water electrolysis machine on the Zvezda Service Module, they breathed oxygen from "perchlorate candles," which produce O2 via chemical reactions inside a metal canister.

"You've got a metallic canister with this material (perchlorate) packed inside it," Perry explained. "They shove this canister into a reactor and then pull an igniter pin. Once the reaction starts, it continues to burn until it's all used." Each canister releases enough oxygen for one person for one day."

oxygen candle

Self rescuer breathing apparatus finally getting somewhere

Ok, someone here could make an oxygen generator here for 50 bucks based on this

Just vent the hydrogen outside the truck, and keep the oxygen. But you need to monitor the O2 levels in the truck and the CO2 levels in the truck and we still don't have a scrubber yet.

Better still. Set up a small 2 man tent on the roof of the vehicle. Have a light cord attached 100 ft long.

Attach a cheap camcorder. Below the tent.

Vent the Hydrogen into the tent, then let out the cord, as the tent rises capture footage and do recon with the camcorder.
The hydrogen gas will vent and the tent will descend.
Check footage for zombie movements.

(Survival tactics 101)

This is why there is a predicted 95% die off rate.

Because people do not take these things seriously

Well, I think I finally found something.

Someone building his own Nautilus submarine

CO2 scrubber using SODASORB

Bucket of SODASORB and an O2 generator, maybe you could stay enclosed in the vehicle for a month.

Its not the point of wanting to, its the security of knowing you could.
It makes it easier to fall asleep in a toxic atmosphere. You can expect to wake up alive.

Someone calculated the effectiveness of SODASORB...

For 79 bucks, it might be worth your while to get some in case you have to tape the windows shut.

A room of ~ 34,000 liter (~ 8 x 12.5 x 12.5 ft) @ 370ppm, has ~12.5 liters of CO2

I wrote Smith Medical to see what the had to say, @ 1 liter of a SODASORB @ 2000 l / hr air flow.

Media lasts 1 - 3 months, ~$30.00

4 cfm is about 113 liters/minute
113x60 =6780 liters per hour.
4 cfm = 6780 l/hour air flow.
A bathroom fan is 40 cfm.
So then if you had a fan like a bathroom fan, and it was running, that would be 67,800 l /hour

Now then you probably don't need to have that strong a fan running. So a small 2 cfm fan would probably be enough to keep you alive.
Something like this would do it if you rigged it up so that it would pass air through a canister containing SODASORB.

When the SODASORB turns purple, change the SODASORB.

Though not precisely what you are looking for, the Soviet military has a personal breathing system (not what I would call a "gas mask" in the usual sense of the term) that generates oxygen,

I can find almost no information on them online, but they were the IP series of respirators, first developed in the 1960s, I believe. The IP-6 was the last one I knew about. The user would activate the process by putting a little tube of a substance (sodium hydroxide?) into a slot, then pushing down, breaking the glass on the bottom of the tube and mixing the substance inside with the crystals of something-or-other inside the chamber. After a delay, the device would have oxygen available for breathing. The air did, however, smell and taste horribly. I believe the device was developed for moving through contaminated areas, as well as to escape from submerged vehicles. Using a nose clip, it could be used underwater.

These pages have some information on the system:

militaryforces.ru...

www.soviet-power.com...

Originally posted by therainmaker
Though not precisely what you are looking for, the Soviet military has a personal breathing system (not what I would call a "gas mask" in the usual sense of the term) that generates oxygen,

I can find almost no information on them online, but they were the IP series of respirators, first developed in the 1960s, I believe. The IP-6 was the last one I knew about. The user would activate the process by putting a little tube of a substance (sodium hydroxide?) into a slot, then pushing down, breaking the glass on the bottom of the tube and mixing the substance inside with the crystals of something-or-other inside the chamber. After a delay, the device would have oxygen available for breathing. The air did, however, smell and taste horribly. I believe the device was developed for moving through contaminated areas, as well as to escape from submerged vehicles. Using a nose clip, it could be used underwater.

These pages have some information on the system:

militaryforces.ru...

www.soviet-power.com...

Thanks,
same basic idea as personal mine evac gear.

The problem is they are only good for about half an hour.

So with a diving rebreather system, you can get 2.75 hours if you sit still and meditate. Then die.

So the best option is to have an electrolysis method, with a battery and two electrodes in water.
If you don't have an HHO set up made which every survivalist should have.

With 2 simple electrodes pulled from a 6 volt lantern battery, and put in a glass of water, oxygen will come off one electrode and hydrogen will come off the other. The one that bubbles the most is the hydrogen. You want to capture that and vent it by putting something over that electrode and it will rise up and then out where you vent it outside. If you can't vent it outside, then vent it into a green garbage bag. Its flammable.

So now with a battery you are producing clean oxygen. Then the only problem is that a build up of CO2 will kill you in an enclosed space.

So you need to get some sort of absorbent material and sodasorb seems to be the one that people use and its reasonably priced.

So if you do that. Just these two thing. Get a 70 dollar bucket of sodasorb, have a small DC fan, and a car battery, you can hypothetically survive in an enclosed space for at least a month if not more.

Ideally you want to monitor the Oxygen levels and monitor the CO2 levels and you can make a kit out of an Arduino that will do both of those things.

Depending on where you live or where your bunker is, this might make the difference between life and death.
For you and your family.

Think 1000 Fukushimas. Thats how many reactors have spent fuel rods. Many of those are in the US.
Then think chemical fires, and Chlorine gas and smoke inhalation and wild fires.

a reply to: ignorant_ape

You forgot terrain around a Chlorine spill. We use it at work and all training material say "get to high ground" cause Chlorine gas doesn't rise, it falls, filling all & any low lying area's. It's a sickly green-ish/dirty yellow haze
that resembles a fog.