Is Islam a genuine threat?

reply to post by babloyi

Quran (2:216) - "Fighting is prescribed for you, and ye dislike it. But it is possible that ye dislike a thing which is good for you, and that ye love a thing which is bad for you. But Allah knoweth, and ye know not.

Decribing fighting as virtuous. And this doesn't refer to a "spiritual" fight or any specific response to historical injustice.

Quran (3:151) - "Soon shall We cast terror into the hearts of the Unbelievers, for that they joined companions with Allah, for which He had sent no authority".

Quran (4:74) - "Let those fight in the way of Allah who sell the life of this world for the other. Whoso fighteth in the way of Allah, be he slain or be he victorious, on him We shall bestow a vast reward."

Maybe not direct, but this could EASILY be interpreted as anyone who does not support Islam, or an Islamic state, and infact is a verse often quoted by miltias.

A suicide bomber could also be consoled in this, as the "reward" aspect relates to "Martyrdom"; a concept that is repeated throughout the Koran.

Quran (4:89) - "They but wish that ye should reject Faith, as they do, and thus be on the same footing (as they): But take not friends from their ranks until they flee in the way of Allah (From what is forbidden). But if they turn renegades, seize them and slay them wherever ye find them; and (in any case) take no friends or helpers from their ranks."

Quran (4:104) - "And be not weak hearted in pursuit of the enemy; if you suffer pain, then surely they (too) suffer pain as you suffer pain..."

Is pursuing an enemy really an act of self-defence? The above seems to be rather offensive rhetoric.

Still waiting for your facts that gives you the authority to condemn someone's analysis of scripture.

reply to post by NeverForget

Who said anything about spiritual fighting or "historical" injustices? Those points exist, but I certainly didn't bring it up. It is a universal command: You are permitted to fight those who fight you, who drive you from your homes, who oppress your families, etc. THOSE are the occasions when it is "prescribed". On those occasions, you're meant to (Islamically) do it, and you can't shirk your duty, and fight with all your might.

I still don't see how any of these passages could be interpreted to be "the scripture demanding that muslims must 'declare Jihad' on all non-believers".

reply to post by babloyi

I still don't see how any of these passages could be interpreted to be "the scripture demanding that muslims must 'declare Jihad' on all non-believers".

I rest my case.

Have a good day.

If you think things are bad now, they will get far worse over the next decade as the oil in the middle east runs out.

That is what all the uprisings are currently about.

The koran, hadith etc are overwhelmingly concerned with hatred towards non-muslims - although apologists cherry pick and distort the meanings they are clearly intended to convey.

What really matters I suppose is what the leaders of Islam today actually believe: here are a few examples.

This list should disabuse anyone of the notion that the incessant intolerance, hatred, and even violence against non-Muslims is "fringe." This is not just a small group of "radicals." This is Islam, plain and simple. The leaders quoted below are hugely popular, even famous mainstream leaders in the Islamic world. For each quote, I've provided an online source. Let's begin:

Ali Gomaa, the grand mufti of Egypt, the highest Muslim religious authority in the world, supports murdering non-Muslims. In the daily Al Ahram (April 7, 2008), he said, “Muslims must kill non-believers wherever they are unless they convert to Islam.” He also compares non-Muslims to apes and pigs. Source

Muhammad Sayyid Al Tantawi, president of Al Azhar University (the most prominent and authoritative institute of Islamic jurisprudence in the world) also approves of killing and maiming Christians, Jews, and other infidels. He added, “This is not my personal view. This what the Shari’a Law says, the law of Allah, the only valid law on the earth.” Source

www.citizenwarrior.com...

The Chief Justice of Saudi Arabia, Sheikh abdullah bin Muhammad bin Humaid teaches that "at first fighting was forbidden, then it was permitted, and after that it was made obligatory." He clearly identifies two groups Muslims are obligated to fight: "(1) they who start fighting against Muslims, and (2) they who worship gods other than Allah." Source

reply to post by JohhnyBGood

Johnny, you may want to check the reliability of sources, because they are utter nonsense. Interestingly ALL sources on the web that talk about this supposed quote of Ali Goma'a reference the "Canadian Free Press" article, which claims it is from the Al-Ahram newspaper, but provides no links. Checking up the archives, I found no such article either.

www.aligomaa.net...

With that, I'm very suspicious about any other references that site may give, considering it outright lied about one. Especially considering that these people that it quoted have RELIABLE, QUOTABLE references where they are condemning such actions. Unless you can find the actual source, I'd suggest you not take them at all seriously. You may also want to find a better source for information than "citizenwarrior".

reply to post by JohhnyBGood


'Whoever changes his Islamic religion, kill him' Hadith - Sahih Al-Bukhari (9:57)

Death penalty for apostasy is ripe in many theocratic countries in the Middle-East.

reply to post by babloyi



So - they removed the article from the papers archives, and then denied he ever said it - one of his predecessors asked hitler to send him over some gas chambers to deal with his 'jew problem' - so it doesn't really strike me as odd that the present one should hold such views.

Still there is plenty plenty more - the spiritual leader of the Muslim Brotherhood on video describing how he would like to machine gun jews from his wheelchair, you know the M.B that the Obama admin describes as 'moderate'.


Dont you think it is kind of odd for a supposed 'spiritual' leader to be wanting to machine gun jews!? - I mean you wouldnt hear that from any other kind of religious leader now would you, the Pope or Dalai Lama for instance!?

reply to post by JohhnyBGood

Yes, itt's much more likely that a man writes something in a newspaper, then for some reason denies it, and has the newspaper itself help him cover up that claim than a biased and suspect website with an axe to grind lies about something.

reply to post by babloyi


Would that be as likely as an apologist at any cost, latching on to one single example that she could plausibly deny - then using that as an excuse to not comment on all the other blatant examples of Islamic leaders spewing violent hatred towards jews and infidels!?


It is after all perfectly permissible for Muslims to lie and decieve infidels - should it harm the image of Islam, most of Khomeinis early incendiary speeches have been 'rewritten' to erase what he really said.

reply to post by JohhnyBGood

Originally posted by JohhnyBGood
Would that be as likely as an apologist at any cost, latching on to one single example that she could plausibly deny - then using that as an excuse to not comment on all the other blatant examples of Islamic leaders spewing violent hatred towards jews and infidels!?

You mean that OTHER famed "moderate" (as you would call him) who made a career out of condemning terrorists like Bin Laden and Al Qaeda SPECIFICALLY, who then suddenly decides that "No! Killing people is okay!"?

I seriously don't get it. I see this happen so often, especially with doctored and fabricated Quranic quotes. Someone quotes something from somewhere unintentionally which they don't realise is a quite easily discoverable lie, and when they are informed, they...I don't know what they do...block the idea that that was a fabrication from their minds? HOW CAN YOU TRUST A SOURCE THAT LIED? I have no idea, but I am willing to bet at the next required opportunity, you'd be quoting off your "citizenwarrior" websites again anyhow.

I guess the truth isn't worth all that much these days.

reply to post by JohhnyBGood

It is after all perfectly permissible for Muslims to lie and decieve infidels

Very cogent point.

reply to post by babloyi


Ok......my apologies, that quote does not in fact sound like it came from Ali Goma,who sounds like what passes for a moderate in Islamoworld, - though bear in mind, when he was reported to have stated in an article in the Washington Post that Muslims are free to change their faith, he felt it necessary to make the correction:

Cairo: Egypt's top cleric yesterday denied in a statement that he had said a Muslim can give up his faith without punishment. Ali Goma'a, the mufti of Egypt, was quoted as saying in a posting on a Washington Post-Newsweek forum that Muslims are free to change their faith and this is a matter between an individual and God. "What I actually said is that Islam prohibits a Muslim from changing his religion and that apostasy is a crime, which must be punished," Goma'a said. The alleged fatwa coincides with an uproar over the case of 12 Egyptians who converted to Islam from Christianity and now want to re-embrace Christianity.
gulfnews.com...

He doesn't mention what punishment he favours - though a recent poll showed 80% of egyptians thought the death penalty for apsotasy should be applied.

Just my two cents:

I've read a lot of back and forth on this thread, several in defence of the humanitarian aspects of this religion, others in the barbarism which counters it.

In my humble opinion, Islam suffers from what I call the 'carrot and stick' syndrome which plagues the other major religions.

Simply put, the acts of compassion, generosity and kindness don't come from a genuinely humanistic place. These are being done in service to a deity with the assumption of a reward. Basically, be nice to others of your faith, and when you die, you'll receive ice cream and rivers of wine. And I have always held the opinion that if the only reason you're being nice is out of fear of God or the allure of rewards in the hereafter, you're not being nice. You're being selfish. This is the kind of solipsism which really bugs me, and Islam is no exception. It's also plain as day that this is the case, because on the other side of the spectrum, you see the atrocities being committed for the exact same reasons - Be nice to these people over here, and you get a cookie, kill the people over there and you get two cookies.

The detrimental potential for that world view is, quite frankly, part of the problem. And in my opinion, all it teaches is to be opportunistic - that anything is justifiable under the right circumstances.

I dont really care what is written in the Quran and those various interpretations. What is important is what self-described muslims actually believe. Thats when the threat of islam becomes obvious. It is an ideology that is largely incompatible with modern western culture.

a reply to: zero_one

I sent you a PM.