Without Holiness No-One Will See the Lord

Hebrews 12:14b NIV
The title to the thread is my alternative to just having it, Sanctification.
That is what I want to discuss, how people view the concept of sanctification and its relationship to salvation.
I decided to use a New Testament verse to point directly to what I want to get at.
When John says Jesus will cleanse you of unrighteousness, what does he mean?
To facilitate things, I should quote the text.
1 John 1:9 But if we confess our sins, he is faithful and righteous, forgiving us our sins and cleansing us from all unrighteousness.

reply to post by jmdewey60


The problem with this is that people seem to think "believing" is some sort of scape goat. Regardless of how much or little you believe in God or Jesus, it doesn't mean one can do whatever they want, then ask for forgiveness and its all good.

Through reading the words of Jesus one May find the path, but of those who find the path how many actually walk it?

reply to post by Akragon

The problem with this is that people seem to think "believing" is some sort of scape goat.

And perhaps not realizing that the NT describes believing as a work.

Originally posted by jmdewey60
reply to post by Akragon

 

The problem with this is that people seem to think "believing" is some sort of scape goat.

And perhaps not realizing that the NT describes believing as a work.

I don't see how that matters either way..

Lets try something else...

When John says Jesus will cleanse you of unrighteousness, what does he mean?

Can you explain how Jesus cleanses you of "unrighteousness"?

this is a major issue with most Christianity sects. Their idea is "if you believe" in Jesus thats all you need. You're automatically saved... Now my belief on the whole "saved" issue is quite different then others but mostly their belief is just plain silly. As if believing in him automatically gives you a free ticket into heaven.

Hebrews and 1 John were letters written to believers. They were written to people who already were Christians. And they are correct, we should strive diligently for holiness in thought, deed and action. Sanctification is a glorious thing. I think most Christians strive to be as much like Christ as humanly possible. And there is certainly bitter remorse and sorrow when we fail or stumble in our walk. Sanctification should never be resisted, it's the Holy Spirit's joy and will to conform us into the image of Christ.

When John says Jesus will cleanse you of unrighteousness, what does he mean?

He is our holy High Priest in heaven, the same concept applies as what the High Priest did in the OT times as the temple. He mediated with God to facilitate the cleansing of sins from the people. Repentance and seeking forgiveness is the key, and Christ is faithful and true to forgive us our sins and to make us "clean" when we come before Him and repent of the sins we commit.

reply to post by NOTurTypical

I think most Christians strive to be as much like Christ as humanly possible.

You're kidding right?

recognize this quote?

I like your Christ, I do not like your Christians. Your Christians are so unlike your Christ

Originally posted by Akragon
reply to post by jmdewey60

 

The problem with this is that people seem to think "believing" is some sort of scape goat. Regardless of how much or little you believe in God or Jesus, it doesn't mean one can do whatever they want, then ask for forgiveness and its all good.

If a person had that mindset. That Jesus was some genie in a bottle that they could sin freely and just get Jesus to forgive them constantly and had no desire to stop sinning in their hearts, I'd be really suspect of their "faith" and professed relationship with the Lord. When the Holy Spirit indwells you He leads you away from sin, He give you a new nature that abhors sin. People who are "born again" are new creations, the old man should be dead and the new man should be alive and live for Christ's glory. I'd be very suspect f that person's faith. James echoes this, a faith without works is "dead" faith. And that we can show our faith in Christ to others by our works, we can't show them our faith with mere speech alone. "Seeing is believing" as they say.

Paul pretty much addresses that in Romans 6:1-2. "God forbid" we continue to sin so that "grace may abound", and how can we continue to live in sin when we are dead to sin.

Originally posted by Akragon
reply to post by NOTurTypical

 

I think most Christians strive to be as much like Christ as humanly possible.

You're kidding right?

Of course not. Christians love the Lord Jesus Christ, people become like the things they worship. We will never be perfectly like Christ. But the goal is to be as much like we can. He is the example. Paul said "follow me as I follow Christ". Why wouldn't anyone who knows Him and is thankful for what He did for us not want to be just like Him? Heck, the people that worship Eminem try to be just like him, they get the same tattoos, hair style, clothing et cetra. If unsaved folks do that with Eminem why would you expect Christians to strive to be like the God we worship and adore?

recognize this quote?

I like your Christ, I do not like your Christians. Your Christians are so unlike your Christ

Sure. And didn't Jesus say there would be numerous wolves in sheep's clothing, and to "beware" of them? Didn't Peter say there would be many false prophets and false teachers amongst the flock? Jesus and Peter were correct and true living prophets.

reply to post by NOTurTypical


Well said, though i would not say this is the case with the majority of christian sects.

Like i said, many take belief is christ as a free pass to judge everyone that doesn't agree with their specific belief system.

And of course ATS doesn't represent the majority either...

reply to post by Akragon

Like i said, many take belief is christ as a free pass to judge everyone that doesn't agree with their specific belief system.

Paul says we aren't to judge the non-believers, but that since we are to one day judge angels we should be able to discern matters withing the body of Christ. We hold Christians to a higher standard than the world. We should never judge a person that isn't a Christian. Sadly, many people do. But usually it's the religious "Christians" who do this. Religious people make lists of do's and don'ts and expect everyone to follow their lists. It's legalism, they think they are good and holy/righteous for following their own lists, and judge, condemn, and look down on everyone else. They see themselves as "good" and the rest of the world as "bad". A real Christian sees Jesus alone as the only one who was ever good and everyone else including ourselves as "bad". It's the religious "Christians" who make a mockery of the faith, and who put to shame the Lord that bought them. They are seeking justification by their own works.

Much like Cain did with his works offering that God rejected. And we all know what Christ said and felt about the religious folks of His day. He mocked them without mercy for their self-righteousness. Jesus was the most anti-religious person to ever walk the Earth. Religion is a wicked demonic invention, it's not what we do or don't do, it's all about what Jesus has done for us. Religion teaches it's all about what you do and don't do, you gotta do this or that so God will love you and accept you. Redemption teaches God is love and has displayed that love by sending His Son to die for our sins while we were yet sinners and complete enemies of God. Religion is man attempting to reach out to God, Redemption is about God reaching down to man.

Redemption and Religion are two opposite and incompatible outlooks on our relationship with God.

appears there is only one who is holy, so it makes sense to me when reading about all flesh being as the grass and all the glory of man as the flower of grass.

for thou only art holy
Revelation15

Originally posted by Rustami
appears there is only one who is holy, so it makes sense to me when reading about all flesh being as the grass and all the glory of man as the flower of grass.

for thou only art holy
Revelation15

They sang the song of Moses the servant of God and the song of the Lamb:
“Great and astounding are your deeds,
Lord God, the All-Powerful!
Just and true are your ways,
King over the nations!
Who will not fear you, O Lord,
and glorify your name, because you alone are holy?

They sang songs of two people who were servants of God, Moses and Jesus.
Who were they praising? God.
Who did Jesus say to be like? The Father.
Who did Jesus say was the only one good? Himself? No.

Originally posted by Rustami
appears there is only one who is holy, so it makes sense to me when reading about all flesh being as the grass and all the glory of man as the flower of grass.

for thou only art holy
Revelation15

Amen!

Sanctification:
I want to start out by quoting the verses in the New Testament using the word.
Not all I list may have it translated that way because of the version I am using (NETBible).
They all use the same Strongs number, 38 hagiasmos, for the Greek word which usually is rendered as sanctification.
There are nine but one is about how Jesus became sanctification along with a whole list of things so it is not being used in the same sense.

1 Thessalonians 4:3 For this is God’s will: that you become holy, that you keep away from sexual immorality,

1 Thessalonians 4:4 that each of you know how to possess his own body in holiness and honor,

2 Thessalonians 2:13 But we ought to thank God always for you, brothers and sisters loved by the Lord, because God chose you from the beginning for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and faith in the truth.

Romans 6:22 But now, freed from sin and enslaved to God, you have your benefit leading to sanctification, and the end is eternal life.

Romans 6:19 (I am speaking in human terms because of the weakness of your flesh.) For just as you once presented your members as slaves to impurity and lawlessness leading to more lawlessness, so now present your members as slaves to righteousness leading to sanctification.

1 Peter 1:2 according to the foreknowledge of God the Father by being set apart by the Spirit for obedience and for sprinkling with Jesus Christ’s blood. May grace and peace be yours in full measure!

1 Thessalonians 4:7 For God did not call us to impurity but in holiness.

Hebrews 12:14 Pursue peace with everyone, and holiness, for without it no one will see the Lord.

reply to post by jmdewey60

They sang the song of Moses the servant of God and the song of the Lamb:
“Great and astounding are your deeds,
Lord God, the All-Powerful!
Just and true are your ways,
King over the nations!
Who will not fear you, O Lord,
and glorify your name, because you alone are holy?

They sang songs of two people who were servants of God, Moses and Jesus.
Who were they praising? God.
Who did Jesus say to be like? The Father.
Who did Jesus say was the only one good? Himself? No.

yes I reckon that has something to do with the one new man out of two stated in Ephesians2 as well as the the new song of Revelation5 and who the kings of the earth etc. gather against in Psalms2/Acts4 but also keeping in mind when Jesus stated something like if they had believed what Moses wrote..or if the princes had known, even if one suffers all suffer

"No"

I agree it's written "why call me good" plus the stone before Joshua (Zecheriah3,Hebrews4) and take it as relating to calling no one on earth Father but at the same time I did hear an invisible mans voice audibly say He was Jesus relative to a woman giving birth, so what do you make out of that along with her child being caught up to God and his throne and the invisible eternal King (1Timothy1), High Priest Son (Hebrews7), Lord and Christ (Acts2)?

reply to post by Rustami

. . .and the invisible eternal King of 1Timothy1?

That would be God.
I was trying to show why I thought the song in Revelation was about God, and not about Jesus but a song of Jesus, as in something like he would say but the saints in heaven can sing it as if they are Jesus.
Acts 4 says. . .for there is no other name under heaven given among people. . .I think that means we don't really know God's name and to Abraham, God was El, even if the text has been fudged to add a name not known untill after Moses. El would be a generic term as God is today. So if we want a name to call on for salvation, as in a specific actual name, then it would be Jesus. He united man under one covenent and we as a people are of great status thanks to having this person sitting in heaven representing us to the heavenly host.
Psalms 2 was probably what the Devil used to tempt Jesus in the wilderness. Jesus chose not to take it literally and to take it spiritually.
Moses spoke of Christ.
If one member suffers, everyone suffers with it.
The child would have to be the people we mentioned earlier, singing the song of the Lamb.

reply to post by jmdewey60


Yes, basically the term Sanctification means: "to set apart, for a specific duty/service."

Originally posted by NOTurTypical
reply to post by jmdewey60

 

Yes, basically the term Sanctification means: "to set apart, for a specific duty/service."

1 Peter 1:2 in the version I am using, puts it just like that.

I think I should just go down the list at least once to get an idea of what these texts are talking about.
So, first on the list is1Thessalonians 4:3 so to put it in context a bit, lets look at the verses that come before it, which would be, 1&2.
Finally then, brothers and sisters, we ask you and urge you in the Lord Jesus, that as you received instruction from us about how you must live and please God (as you are in fact living) that you do so more and more. For you know what commands we gave you through the Lord Jesus.

Verse 1 KJV Furthermore then we beseech you, brethren, and exhort you by the Lord Jesus, that as ye have received of us how ye ought to walk and to please God, so ye would abound more and more.
Verse 2 KJV For ye know what commandments we gave you by the Lord Jesus.

Paul is saying that he is speaking with the authority of Jesus. Paul exerts his authority by giving commandments to the Thessalonians, and is exhorting then to continue to follow them to even a greater degree.
Then we come to the two verses in this book, which in this case are consecutive, that have the particular word in them that we are studying.

"For this is God’s will: that you become holy, that you keep away from sexual immorality, that each of you know how to possess his own body in holiness and honor,"

This seems to be something related to what Paul had given advice, so you have two things, a command, and some advice. Do not fornicate, and it would be advisable in order to facilitate that, to be married.
The idea being, fornication is a sin, even if people generally in that area did not regard it as such. Do not sin because Jesus did not die to redeem us into sinfulness. We are to be a holy people.

2 Thessalonians 2:13 is a pivotal point in the midst of this chapter which deals in the last day events and the times leading up to it. The writer is describing a great evil that will befall the world. It seems to be able to happen because of what is described in verse 10.
"and with every kind of evil deception directed against those who are perishing, because they found no place in their hearts for the truth so as to be saved."

No place in their hearts for the truth. Hmm. Well, that's one type of people and from all that, we transition to another type, hopefully, of people, who I would assume did find a place in their hearts for the truth.
The writer desperately wants such a people to exist when the end comes and says he had worked hard with them to establish traditions for them to follow, to help prevent them from being caught up in all the evil.
In verse 13 he is saying how thankful he should be that God has made it so there are those taking advantage of this great plan of salvation put into place by God's direction, where people can be saved through this process. A process that the believer, through faith in the truth, follows the Spirit into a certain state of holiness.
The next verse refers back to the sanctification in verse 13, calling it the glory of Christ, and saying that this was why they were saved and why they had been given the Gospel. Considering how this chapter is about the last day, then the actual full glorification may be something which is not necessarily a mundane sort of thing. It is likely that it is this earlier mentioned sanctification which makes the glorification possible, when that last day does occur.