Ex Us Military Police, Brandon Neely, Exposes the Abuses and Crimes Against Prisoners at Guantanamo

reply to post by Xcathdra


You leave out the obvious flaw in your whole argument..

The west INVADED THEIR country..

They haven't invaded ours...

Originally posted by backinblack
reply to post by Xcathdra

 

You leave out the obvious flaw in your whole argument..

The west INVADED THEIR country..

They haven't invaded ours...

If you are referring to Afghanistan, they refused to turn over Bin Laden.

If your referring to IRaq, they had a wMD program and wikileaks has confirmed that.

Your point?

Originally posted by Xcathdra

Originally posted by backinblack
reply to post by Xcathdra

 

You leave out the obvious flaw in your whole argument..

The west INVADED THEIR country..

They haven't invaded ours...

If you are referring to Afghanistan, they refused to turn over Bin Laden.

If your referring to IRaq, they had a wMD program and wikileaks has confirmed that.

Your point?

Umm, they asked for proof of guilt before handing him over..
Seems fair to me..

No WMD's and even Clinton and others have admitted in public that INVADING Iraq was a mistake..

Originally posted by backinblack
Umm, they asked for proof of guilt before handing him over..
Seems fair to me..

Taliban refused to turn over bin laden - would to a third party country

In Jalalabad, deputy prime minister Haji Abdul Kabir - the third most powerful figure in the ruling Taliban regime - told reporters that the Taliban would require evidence that Bin Laden was behind the September 11 terrorist attacks in the US, but added: "we would be ready to hand him over to a third country".

Taliban refuses to turn over Bin Laden - LA Times

What you are leaving out, and im not sure if its because you dont know, or dont care, is the Taliban wanted detailed information of how we knew Bin Laden was behind the attacks. This goes into methods of intelligence gathering and ouwl reveal sources.

The US did provide information to the Taliban government, and because the info was limited (IE didnt contain source information) they refused. The Talibans position was they wanted detailed info on Bin Laden, and in exchange they would consider turning him over to a 3rd party country.

Thats a non starter.

However, I will grant you the fact that since the Taliban were technically in control, they have every right to refuse. As a nation who was attacked, we have every right to defend ourselves, including invoking the NATO treaty as well as article VII of the UN Charter.

Originally posted by backinblack
No WMD's and even Clinton and others have admitted in public that INVADING Iraq was a mistake..

NYP - WMDs were located in Iraq

Originally posted by Wyn Hawks
...i didnt accept that extremely low standard from my kids and i wont accept it from my country either...

Originally posted by Xcathdra
Yet you will accept it from radical Islam when they kill our civilians?

...one would have to be befuddled by hysteria to understand how you got to that question from my statement...

Originally posted by Xcathdra
My issue with the responses in this thread, and a few others on topics like this, is people have no issue jumping to take the Us to task. The problem is there is a stunning silence by those same people when it comes to the same thing by other groups.

...no one is obligated to do as you want them to...

Originally posted by Xcathdra
The issues wont go away because America changes the way it treats enemy combatants. Change is going to be needed on the flip side of the coin. The side that others tend to ignore because apparently change on that side is to difficult to pursue.

...that up there, combined with your previous "when you change, i'll change" retort, reminds me of the whines of a very spoiled child who is so used to getting their way that they demand it even of strangers...

Originally posted by Xcathdra
A story comes to mind with all of this.

...crazy anders would appreciate that story but i dont...

reply to post by Xcathdra

The massive cache of almost 400,000 Iraq war documents released by the WikiLeaks Web site revealed that small amounts of chemical weapons were found in Iraq and continued to surface for years after the 2003 US invasion, Wired magazine reported.

Wikileaks is your source.

I thought you didn't trust them..

But anyways, small amounts of "unknown" chemicals are not WMD's in my opinion..
And it's hard to refute the FACT that the US Secretary id State, Hilary Clinton, clearly stated the invasion was a mistake..

Originally posted by Wyn Hawks
...one would have to be befuddled by hysteria to understand how you got to that question from my statement...

Then maybe you should go back and read your response. You wont accept behavior of this sort from your government, however you will remain silent when its done by an entity other than our government.

Originally posted by Wyn Hawks
...no one is obligated to do as you want them to...

And at no point have I attempted to force anyone to do something they dont want to do. What I have done is point out mistakes people are making when it comes to this topic and strongly suggested people learn before speaking.

They can choose to be ignorant if they want, but the theme is to deny ignorance on this site, not embrace it.

Originally posted by Wyn Hawks
...that up there, combined with your previous "when you change, i'll change" retort, reminds me of the whines of a very spoiled child who is so used to getting their way that they demand it even of strangers...

Tell that to the 3k innocent people who dies on 9/11. When that occured, the "enemy" threw every single "rule and laws of warfare" and threw it out the window.

Its not our fault they decided to come to a gunfight with knives and a warped version of a hijacked religion. As I said before, there will be times in history that taking a high road will not lead to victory. Dealing with people who have no regard for human life, other than to view them as homicide bomber ammunition, means the rules we are used to playing by are no longer being used.

I guess it would be better to throw a temper tantrum than be killed because of naivety. As with temper tantrums, the kids on occasion do get their ways.

Originally posted by Wyn Hawks
...crazy anders would appreciate that story but i dont...

Thats too bad... Have fun being the guy on the ground with the broken jaw while trying to figure out what lesson it is you are suppose to be learning.

I for one would rather fight standing up, facing my opponent and going all out to win, rather than just giveing in and hope it does make it to our shores.

Oh wait.... it did.

reply to post by Xcathdra


The 9/11 OS has more holes than swiss cheese..

Using that as an excuse to invade multiple countries was never justified..

Originally posted by backinblack
Wikileaks is your source.

I thought you didn't trust them..

I figured since you an everyone else uses wikileaks to justify going after the US government, I would use your own sources for this.

Originally posted by backinblack
But anyways, small amounts of "unknown" chemicals are not WMD's in my opinion..
And it's hard to refute the FACT that the US Secretary id State, Hilary Clinton, clearly stated the invasion was a mistake..

Small amount?
So I gues its ok then that the US can treat enemy combatants in the manner we do because its just a small amount over the line? Your opinion is nice, however UN definitions are what we go by, and in this case what they have is a wmd program.

I love how you and others will use sources, and when the same sources are used back at you, you downplay it and call it into question. You undermine your own argument.. . A WMD program is a WMD program.. Its not a matter of degrees in this case, no matter how much you try to parse words.

Hillary Clinton was not in the Bush Administration, and did not have the information needed to make that determination. Her opinion is based on politics and is a part of the appology doctrine Obama has adopted.

Nice try though...

Originally posted by backinblack
reply to post by Xcathdra

 

The 9/11 OS has more holes than swiss cheese..

Using that as an excuse to invade multiple countries was never justified..

I refer you to the Congressional Authorization to use military force on the war on terror and what all that entails. I refer you to the constant back and forth with the Taliban about Bin Laden.

Again, nice try to obfuscate the issues though.

Afghanistan was a valid military target since they harbored Bin Laden.
Iraq was a valid military target since they were in continual violation of UN resolutions for about 10+ yers.

Originally posted by Xcathdra

Originally posted by backinblack
Wikileaks is your source.

I thought you didn't trust them..

I figured since you an everyone else uses wikileaks to justify going after the US government, I would use your own sources for this.

Originally posted by backinblack
But anyways, small amounts of "unknown" chemicals are not WMD's in my opinion..
And it's hard to refute the FACT that the US Secretary id State, Hilary Clinton, clearly stated the invasion was a mistake..

Small amount?
So I gues its ok then that the US can treat enemy combatants in the manner we do because its just a small amount over the line? Your opinion is nice, however UN definitions are what we go by, and in this case what they have is a wmd program.

I love how you and others will use sources, and when the same sources are used back at you, you downplay it and call it into question. You undermine your own argument.. . A WMD program is a WMD program.. Its not a matter of degrees in this case, no matter how much you try to parse words.

Hillary Clinton was not in the Bush Administration, and did not have the information needed to make that determination. Her opinion is based on politics and is a part of the appology doctrine Obama has adopted.

Nice try though...

On another thread I said I was stationed at Camp Taji Iraq and that there is a chem lab there. you can look it up they have a nice page on wikipedia that shows how large this underground chem base was the blast door at the opening has welcome to hell spray painted on the door lol..

well they had over 6000 canisters there that were mostly cleaned out by the time we got there but they still had a bit in various ones. They were trying to cover their assess but like I told people in other threads I was there I know what we found.

What I don't know was why bush decided to keep it classified it wasn't until the Iraq papers were declassified that I spoke up about it. figuring that it was old hat.

you would think he would have shoved it in every ones faces but I think by that time his reputation was beyond saving and he decided to hell with it. IMO

reply to post by Xcathdra


Spin it all you like mate..Lies are still lies..

Bin Laden has never been wanted for 9.11...Odd huh

Clinton, the current Government, made a statement..."Iraq was a mistake."
Obama stopped the investigation into Bush's actions..

FACTS you can't dispute..

Please show me where the UN declared Iraq had WMD's...

reply to post by Reaper2137


Because any argument made that WMDS were found would be met with people screaming we planted them there.

Originally posted by backinblack
Spin it all you like mate..Lies are still lies..

Thats your specialty so I guess you would know.

Originally posted by backinblack
Bin Laden has never been wanted for 9.11...Odd huh

FBI Wanted Poster - Osama Bin Laden

He was on the FBI list because of he attacks on our emabssies in Africa, which were linked to him. If you read the wanted secton, you will notice -

Usama Bin Laden is wanted in connection with the August 7, 1998, bombings of the United States Embassies in Dar es Salaam, Tanzania, and Nairobi, Kenya. These attacks killed over 200 people. In addition, Bin Laden is a suspect in other terrorist attacks throughout the world.

Wow.. it turns out he was wanted in connection with that....

Originally posted by backinblack
Clinton, the current Government, made a statement..."Iraq was a mistake."
Obama stopped the investigation into Bush's actions..

FACTS you can't dispute..

Of course its not in dispute because they are coming from a different administration. I could care less if Obama and Hillary think the Iraq war was a mistake. That would be their Opinions, and has nothing to do with Bush and Iraq.

The following administrations after LBJ thought Vietnam was a mistake. Some thought Korea was a mistake, and for the first part of WWI and WWII the administration felt invovlement was a mistake.

I love how you make every effort to parse words in roder to support our claims.

Originally posted by backinblack
Please show me where the UN declared Iraq had WMD's...

I never said the UN declared Iraq had a WMD program. What I said, if you would actually take the time to read, is under UN defintions of what constitutes a WMD program, what was located in Iraq meets those defintions. Secondly, the UN has resolutons in place going all the way back to the end of the firt gulf war, prohibiting them form any type of wmd program. That includes precursor agents as well as dedicated equipment. Even multi purpose equipment was listed and monitored, and a few countries were popped for violating those sanctions.

Quit seeing only what you want and take the time to read please.

My own take on this since I don't think I have made one just responded to others.

I think this dimwit is a traitor and should be executed. I was and am a med-discharged Military Police officer. I don't know why morons like this bother to wear the badge, If he thought it was so wrong why did he not stand up and say some thing when he was there? why did he not bring it up to his officers? why did he not go to the provost marshal?

I say these things because people seem to think that In the military you can't disobey an order and you can't be a whistle blower YOU CAN I don't know how much to stress to these people that you can do these things.. it takes a brave person and you have to transfer units but its not against the USMCJ.

When I was getting ready for my first deployment on our last leave before we left for Iraq ten to twelve men decided to rent a party bus in Phili they picked up a 15 year old girl and raped her as they speed around the city. I was not there nor did I witness this happen.

What I did witness was that girl getting thrown off the buss near my hotel. She was crying and didn't want to tell the police, I talked her into calling her mother and letting me talk to her mother with her, As a Military Police officer there is no such thing as off duty even dealing with Civi's.

I hailed a cab and went with her to her parents house, Spent a long time going over her story with her parents and talking with her parents. When she told me who did it because we all wear name tapes I was shocked to find out it was my own unit.

The unit was not the 649th MP I oped to go sooner what another unit. It was this unit that did it. When I found out that it was our own guys. Like I said I was shocked, to know this happened in my own back yard.

When I asked if the parents wanted to go to the Local P.D or have me deal with it and keep them abreast they let me deal with it. I told her that if she let the locals deal with it the military would close ranks and nothing would get done and no justice would be served.

It took well over a year for me to get it done. I say this because it was the truth I started that very day calling my Sargent and going up the chain of command, When my Sargent told me to drop it I went above his head to the plat daddy or platoon Sargent I also got told to drop it, That if I didn't than I would lose rank and get # details.

I than went over his head and ask to speak to our platoon leader or officer usually a 1st lieutenant can go so high as captain in certain units although very rare. When he said he would kick me if I didn't drop it and than bad things started to happen to me. I was not part of this unit so as an outsider you don't really get treated nice in the first place.

I than asked to see the company First Sargent, This went little better This time I got jumped on my way out I'm a small guy so this didn't work out well for me. After all was said and done I got told the matter was dropped for me when I refused and asked to speak with the Company Commander I was refused. So I utilized the Commanders open door policy and just walked in and spoke of all the harassment and ass beating I had to on behalf of a little girl who was raped.

I was told that it would be bad PR for the Army and I was ordered to drop it. I responded with no not only not but hell no and told him that if he didn't do any thing that I would go to the provost marshal. With a second jumping this time I did better using my weapon as a club.(still go my ass kicked tho)

Now comes the almost eleven months of #, This took so long because I was still doing missions and you have to wait for meeting and time to see people. I think they were trying to kill me with the amount of Missions I was sent on as well as were they were Al Sadar city to name one. Never the less I prevailed and got my meeting with the Provost Marshal.


I went to see the Provost Marshal at the time we had agreed to and with the whole unit trying to get me not too. Calling me a "Traitor", and "#-bird" I met with him. This meeting made every thing else worth wile I gave him the Parents phone number and email address as well as all the Information I had. (taped meetings with parents and the girl) pretty much doing the case for them.

Justice was swift and if they had not tried to get me killed half my old unit would still have their jobs.

They were also double punished they went to military prison than when dishonorably discharged were handed over to local P.D in Phili and tried again by a civilian court.

To my Knowledge two or three of them are still in military prison

My point to that story up there was that I took up a cause and saw it through to the end. Even when my career was on the line. There is a law that backs both him and I that states if the order you were given was either morally or illegal than its your duty to disobey that order.

Originally posted by Xcathdra


Sometimes turning the other cheek doesnt solve the problem when dealing with people bent on your destruction. Sometimes, and they are few in human history, a line must be drawn in the sand.

A point where its declared this line and no farther.

We went halfway across the world to draw a line in their sand. They did not come here and draw it in ours.

America as a country benefits nothing from the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan. But we lose much. The only winners are fat cat corporations sucking the blood of Americans and Middle Easterners and the Congressmen and Senators who hold stock in such corporations.

Nice straw man you constructed BTW.

Originally posted by groingrinder

Originally posted by Xcathdra


Sometimes turning the other cheek doesnt solve the problem when dealing with people bent on your destruction. Sometimes, and they are few in human history, a line must be drawn in the sand.

A point where its declared this line and no farther.

We went halfway across the world to draw a line in their sand. They did not come here and draw it in ours.

America as a country benefits nothing from the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan. But we lose much. The only winners are fat cat corporations sucking the blood of Americans and Middle Easterners and the Congressmen and Senators who hold stock in such corporations.

Nice straw man you constructed BTW.

edit on 7-25-2011 by groingrinder because: Edited for clarity.

we benefit a lot from new weapons and testing them on the battle field. Will save lives in the long run

reply to post by Xcathdra

Wow.. it turns out he was wanted in connection with that....

Wow, no he wasn't..
It says "other activities"..

Now you'd think if they had proof he was involved in 9/11 then they would mention it..
But still, your link does not...

The rest of your post is your usual spin..
I mean, your excuse is it's a different administration???
What a joke, Government IS Government..

Originally posted by groingrinder

Originally posted by Xcathdra


Sometimes turning the other cheek doesnt solve the problem when dealing with people bent on your destruction. Sometimes, and they are few in human history, a line must be drawn in the sand.

A point where its declared this line and no farther.

We went halfway across the world to draw a line in their sand. They did not come here and draw it in ours.

America as a country benefits nothing from the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan. But we lose much. The only winners are fat cat corporations sucking the blood of Americans and Middle Easterners and the Congressmen and Senators who hold stock in such corporations.

Nice straw man you constructed BTW.

edit on 7-25-2011 by groingrinder because: Edited for clarity.

They did not come here? Were you not paying attention on 9/11?
How about Kobar Towers?
How about the barracks in lebanon?
How about the Cole?
How about 2 embassies in Africa?

I find it intresting that you are upset that the only people getting rich are fat cat corporations, and saying we dont get any benefiets from it.

Would you prefer we occupy Iraq and annex it?

What benefiets did we get our of WWI? WWII?

What do you want otu of it? Or are you upset that some people made money and you did not?

GITMO is the American gulag/devils island and soon we ourselves will be processed through there as the government pull close the noose of dictatorship. i guess they learned a lot from CASTRO