Anders Breivik and "hidden" Freemasons

Originally posted by Fitzgibbon

But who are we to make that ultimate decision?

We are a society who has a duty to protect the innocent, and see that justice is satisfied.

Originally posted by Masonic Light

Originally posted by Fitzgibbon

But who are we to make that ultimate decision?

We are a society who has a duty to protect the innocent, and see that justice is satisfied.

And society protects the innocent and improves itself by becoming the same thing which it condemns? Call me old school for suggesting the death penalty does not improve society at large; it just temporarily satiates a blood lust in its loudest proponents.

Originally posted by Fitzgibbon

And society protects the innocent and improves itself by becoming the same thing which it condemns?

It's not the same thing. The offender here murdered almost a hundred innocent people. Demanding justice certainly does not equate to murdering innocent people.

Originally posted by Masonic Light

Originally posted by Fitzgibbon

And society protects the innocent and improves itself by becoming the same thing which it condemns?

It's not the same thing. The offender here murdered almost a hundred innocent people. Demanding justice certainly does not equate to murdering innocent people.

Intentional killing's intentional killing. You're just talking justification by sanctifiying it under the aegis of the state. A rose by any other name....

Originally posted by Fitzgibbon

Originally posted by Masonic Light

Originally posted by Fitzgibbon

And society protects the innocent and improves itself by becoming the same thing which it condemns?

It's not the same thing. The offender here murdered almost a hundred innocent people. Demanding justice certainly does not equate to murdering innocent people.

Intentional killing's intentional killing. You're just talking justification by sanctifiying it under the aegis of the state. A rose by any other name....

At least I agree with you on this.

2nd

Originally posted by MasterGemini

At least I agree with you on this.

2nd

Armaegeddon is nigh!

Just kidding!

Originally posted by Fitzgibbon

Intentional killing's intentional killing. You're just talking justification by sanctifiying it under the aegis of the state. A rose by any other name....

I never said that intentional killing is wrong under any circumstances. It has nothing to do with it being authorized by the state, and everything to do with satisfying justice.

Cows are intentionally killed to provide us with steaks and cheeseburgers. Personally, I could kill this guy with a hell of an easier conscience than I could kill a cow.

Originally posted by Masonic Light

Originally posted by Fitzgibbon

Intentional killing's intentional killing. You're just talking justification by sanctifiying it under the aegis of the state. A rose by any other name....

I never said that intentional killing is wrong under any circumstances. It has nothing to do with it being authorized by the state, and everything to do with satisfying justice.

Cows are intentionally killed to provide us with steaks and cheeseburgers. Personally, I could kill this guy with a hell of an easier conscience than I could kill a cow.

I prefer to take Romans 12:19 at face value. However, that's the guidance I live by. YMMV. And where do we end?

In any case, the Norwegians have their law and see the death penalty as counter-productive. Certainly north of the border here, we came to that same conclusion forty-odd years ago and in the interim, we've had more than a few 'whoopsy'-kind of situations where convicted killers have had their convictions overturned decades after the fact.

Not an option when you've pumped the guy's arms full of barbiturates/dropped him off the scaffold/whatever your state's preferred method of execution happens to be.

reply to post by Fitzgibbon


Norweigans have the "Nicest" penal system in the World.. this guy will probably spend 20 years living in a commune like enviroment on an island learning new hobbies. I believe Michael Moore (he sucks but...) he actually went to Norway and other Scandanavian countries and covered their way of "changing" prisoners. Where you'll meet axe murderers living in cabins learning to knit.

I have to say I'm with ML on this one.

reply to post by Rockpuck


Considering you masons, always form an argument based on authority when someone comes wandering in here, claiming to know something about freemasonry.
Wouldn't it be wise to follow you own "advise" and perhaps listen to the scandinavians in this thread, before speaking about something you know nothing about.
We are not sending axe murderes on knitting courses, where they live in cabins out in the woods.
We do have a "nice" penal/prison system, compared to lets say USA, Iraq and China. But that in no way makes it soft or wrong.
Just because you like to kill people, does not make it right to point fingers at us, for having evolved past simple bloodlust!

Originally posted by Rockpuck
reply to post by Fitzgibbon

 

Norweigans have the "Nicest" penal system in the World.. this guy will probably spend 20 years living in a commune like enviroment on an island learning new hobbies. I believe Michael Moore (he sucks but...) he actually went to Norway and other Scandanavian countries and covered their way of "changing" prisoners. Where you'll meet axe murderers living in cabins learning to knit.

I have to say I'm with ML on this one.

I'd say look at their recidivism rate and let the statistics do the talking. If the Norwegians find that their system works for them, what's the issue? One thing they can be certain of is that they won't find out after the fact that they offed someone by mistake.

Originally posted by Fitzgibbon
I'd say look at their recidivism rate and let the statistics do the talking.

Kind of hard for an admitted mass-murderer to be a recidivist after taking a ride on Ol' Sparky.

Originally posted by Schrödinger
reply to post by Rockpuck

 

"nice" penal/prison system, compared to lets say USA, Iraq and China. But that in no way makes it soft or wrong.
Just because you like to kill people, does not make it right to point fingers at us, for having evolved past simple bloodlust!

Schrödinger,

You should also bear in mind that the penalty for the same crime varies from state to state in the U.S. and while some do allow the death penalty, IIRC it's actually more expensive given appeals, appeals of appeals, etc. plus solitary incarceration costs than just housing the prisoner for X number of years. The other shortcoming of the death penalty (aside from the whoops factor) is the lynch mob mentality that arises around events such as this one.

As much as we like to fashion ourselves rational human beings, the fact is that we can contort our morals to suit any outcome we like if necessary. I found this article in today's Toronto Globe and Mail quite telling under the circumstances:

www.theglobeandmail.com...

Originally posted by AugustusMasonicus

Originally posted by Fitzgibbon
I'd say look at their recidivism rate and let the statistics do the talking.

Kind of hard for an admitted mass-murderer to be a recidivist after taking a ride on Ol' Sparky.

And your response to Mrs. Milgaard would have been.....?

en.wikipedia.org...

We're stuck in a complex world looking for simple answers, simple answers that don't exist in reality and simple answers that are peddled by politicians and snake oil salesmen.

Beware both; you'll regret buying what they have to sell

Originally posted by Fitzgibbon
And your response to Mrs. Milgaard would have been.....?

It would appear that he did not confess, while Mr. Breivik is revelling in his post homicidal glory. You admit to killing 90+ people (or anyone for that matter) then you can have a barbituate cocktail on me.

Originally posted by AugustusMasonicus

Originally posted by Fitzgibbon
And your response to Mrs. Milgaard would have been.....?

It would appear that he did not confess, while Mr. Breivik is revelling in his post homicidal glory. You admit to killing 90+ people (or anyone for that matter) then you can have a barbituate cocktail on me.

Slippery slope. Used to be pinching a loaf (of the wheat kind) was enough to have you doing St. Vitus dance at the end of a rope. Again, if the Norwegians find that their system strikes the right balance for them, who's to gainsay it? It certainly eliminates the possibility of the "Sorry 'bout your son, Ma'am" moments.

Besides which, depending on the options life in prison could be well more of a punishment than a quick end to it all. As soon as we as a society bay for blood, we start back down the road to the cave.

Originally posted by Fitzgibbon
Again, if the Norwegians find that their system strikes the right balance for them, who's to gainsay it?

Not me. If it works for them, fine.

It certainly eliminates the possibility of the "Sorry 'bout your son, Ma'am" moments.

Breivik admitted to the murders. The likelyhood of there being a, 'Sorry, Mr. and Mrs. Breivik..." are zero.

As soon as we as a society bay for blood, we start back down the road to the cave.

He forfeited his life when he began his killing spree. There is nothing redeemable about this person anymore.

Originally posted by AugustusMasonicus

Originally posted by Fitzgibbon
It certainly eliminates the possibility of the "Sorry 'bout your son, Ma'am" moments.

Breivik admitted to the murders. The likelyhood of there being a, 'Sorry, Mr. and Mrs. Breivik..." are zero.

As soon as we as a society bay for blood, we start back down the road to the cave.

He forfeited his life when he began his killing spree. There is nothing redeemable about this person anymore.

Fine.

For the sake of argument, what if he's off his nut?

A few McNuggets short of a Happy Meal?

Not playing with a full deck?

Insert your favourite phrase here.

You still going to fire up Ol' Sparky?

Originally posted by Fitzgibbon
Fine.

For the sake of argument, what if he's off his nut?

A few McNuggets short of a Happy Meal?

Not playing with a full deck?

Insert your favourite phrase here.

You still going to fire up Ol' Sparky?

I do not see how his mental state would prevent him from being a candidate for a ticket to death row. He methodically and systematically planned and executed this massacre. He is obviously off his nut......waaaay off his nut. The sooner he takes a permanent leave of abscence the better.

After reading through the thread, and calming my dismay that this guy was a Mason, I have to say IMO only, I would tie the knot in his noose. There is absolutely no reason that this person should walk on the face of this earth any longer. " Ma thr b n rmbr o hm am mn or M frvr "

I also owe Shrodinger an apology. I apologize for saying you were full of crap about this man being a Mason(in another thread). It looks like he was, and I was wrong to jump to conclusions.

I find myself at a loss for words. It's a tragedy for humanity that this has happened in Norway. It has served as a reminder that extremism exists everywhere, and can even come from the most unexpected of places.