The Mark of the Beast, IMHO truley simple.

Originally posted by Pr0sp3r0

Originally posted by jmdewey60
(...)
That's one thing, the second thing would be to have evidence that Jesus acknowledged the Mosaic law as being authoritative in general, and the keeping of the Sabbath, in particular.
(...)

"For truly, I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not an iota, not a dot, will pass from the Law until all is accomplished." (Mt 5:18)

Jesus was giving the Sermon on the Mount, as the New Moses, and he gave the law then of what your quoted verse is referring to.
"You have heard it said. . .but I tell you now. . ." he was giving the fundamental law and this same theme is found in another place with practically the same sort of format, when he was discussing the law of divorce.
He makes it clear that he is giving a stricter law than what was given by Moses.
So, again my question, where does Jesus indicate the authoritative nature of the Law of Moses?

Could you give the evidence that this god you are alluding to is the God and Father of Jesus and not an angel, as he is referred to as, by Stephan in his monologue in the Book of Acts, and numerous places by Paul?

This is what you are talking about, Right??

ACTS 7
30And when forty years were expired, there appeared to him in the wilderness of mount Sina an [angel of the Lord] in a flame of fire in a bush.

31When Moses saw it, he wondered at the sight: and as he drew near to behold it, [the voice of the LORD came unto him,]

32Saying,[ I am the God of thy fathers, the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob. Then Moses trembled, and durst not behold.]

Did an Angel appear because no human can handel the full beautiful majesty of GOD???



the second thing would be to have evidence that Jesus acknowledged the Mosaic law as being authoritative in general, and the keeping of the Sabbath, in particular.

I would also like to add there is more then 10 laws, and what Jesus changed is what Man added to the law.
He came to fullfill the law and the ancient promises his father gave.

MAtt 4
**** 4But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, [but by [every word] that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.]******

10Then saith Jesus unto him, Get thee hence, Satan: for it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve.

MATT 5
*****17Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.*****

*****18For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.*******

*****19Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.*******

MATT 6
8Be not ye therefore like unto them: for your Father knoweth what things ye have need of, before ye ask him.

9After this manner therefore pray ye: Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name.

10Thy kingdom come, Thy will be done in earth, as it is in heaven.

11Give us this day our daily bread.

12And forgive us our debts, as we forgive our debtors.

13And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil: For thine is the kingdom, and the power, and the glory, for ever. Amen.

^^I Think the LORDs prayer may prove you're first question. And even you're second question.

24No man can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other. Ye cannot serve God and mammon.

MATT 7
21Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven;[ but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.]

MATT 24
35Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.

So by these it would be implied, correct??

P.S. Sorry it took me so long to answer, got 5 youngings lol

to dbates,

EDITED TO ADD : Sorry to reply so late. 5 kids summer break lmao


What if our calendar got messed up by one day and what we think is Saturday is actually Sunday. Would God hold you accountable for the error made when we converted from the Julian calendar to the Gregorian calendar? Do you REALLY know for sure that the exact day of the week established as the seventh day back in Genesis is the exact seventh day that we now call Saturday.

You're 100% right on that. Which I do believe happend. That the whole calender system is messed up.



That we honor God on one day of the week,

>>>What people are forgetting about the Sabbath is it is a GIFT from GOD. A day to rest from you're labour's.
We are actually to give him honor everyday. Not just by words or songs. But by our very action's and thought's.
To treat others with love is to love the father.

Of course not. Honor can be given without some legalistic man-made enforcement of the exact specific date. All of this legalistic type of thinking where you have to check off box A, B, C in the exact order if you want to go to Heaven is just a distraction. (IMHO of course)

>>>You are right on that as well. Which is one of the things Jesus fought against. The priests made the sabbath day and all of GODs laws a burden and not a joy.

Revelation 13:16-18

16And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads:

17And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name.

18Here is wisdom. Let him that hath understanding count the number of the beast: for it is the number of a man; and his number is Six hundred threescore and six.

So people that go to church on Saturday can't shop at Wal-Mart anymore? That just doesn't make sense.

>>>I'd just like to add here, GOD is about free choice. Satan is not so much.
Maybe GOD allowed so much tech so that we may enjoy his gift to us.

It's not enforceable and no technology could monitor everyone's activity on Saturday.This mark is obviously tied to financial transactions. The previous member who cited the cell-phone as being the mark might not be too far off. If you were John and transported to the future how would you describe this thing that everyone held in their right hand and up against their heads all the time? Phones are becoming a very popular way to make financial transactions. Now that Visa, American Express, and MasterCard have their grubby little paws in everything. Their goal is to get 3% of all money transactions in the world. We're getting closer and closer to this. It won't be long before some bureaucratic group can mandate that all transactions must be made with a specific system and that system could come with a pledge or allegiance to some person or government.

Of course the leading theory would still be that some sort of smart chip would be embedded in your hand or forehead. Half the places I go to now have a Smart Pass. The ones where you don't even need to swipe the card. This video highlights some of the security concerns with these cards. Once they get a secure way of making payments without the risk we're going to be asked to embedded them in our body so we can't lose them.





>>>Now Imagine for a moment that both you and I are right. Say it is that smart chip.
What if on Sundays, they turn it off so you may not buy or purchace anything. Their are many towns in mid west usa that will not operate on Sundays. There is also alot of counties in the U.s. that will not sell alcohol on Sundays.So if they are able to do that w/o monitoring you. Imagine what is possable if they can.

Not only this what if the Mark is of a spiritual nature? Not all of us have the gift to see the spiritual realm.
What if hand's mean action's and head means thought's. You're "fruit's" if you will. Also a question where do you put you're hand when you pledge allegience to flag? Where do you put you're hand when you swear an oathe in a court room? What did the third riech and KKK do with their hands? A hand is a symbol in its self.
You will also knowingly take the Mark. I do not believe GOD would allow you to be tricked.

Like I said what I see when I read Revelation's is Holocust.

"For truly, I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not an iota, not a dot, will pass from the Law until all is accomplished." (Mt 5:18)Jesus was giving the Sermon on the Mount, as the New Moses, and he gave the law then of what your quoted verse is referring to.
"You have heard it said. . .but I tell you now. . ." he was giving the fundamental law and this same theme is found in another place with practically the same sort of format, when he was discussing the law of divorce.
He makes it clear that he is giving a stricter law than what was given by Moses.
So, again my question, where does Jesus indicate the authoritative nature of the Law of Moses


TO: jmdewey60 ,

I can see by you're reply that you will not be satisfied by any responce. So I have a question for you.
Please give all verses where Jesus specificly abolished the seventh day Sabbath. I will be surprised if you could too. We both know the text could be swayed in either direction. The same verses you show me, I can turn around on you and visa versa.

We both know this. So dont sit there and try to be condensending to me and others when we reply to you. We also both know there is NO VERSE WHERE JESUS OUT RIGHT ABOLOISH'S THE LAW OF THE SEVENTH DAY SABBATH.

You and I also know the best verse you have is "Jesus is the lord of the SABBATH"
That is the only one you have.

Originally posted by jmdewey60

Originally posted by Pr0sp3r0

"For truly, I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not an iota, not a dot, will pass from the Law until all is accomplished." (Mt 5:18)

(...)

So, again my question, where does Jesus indicate the authoritative nature of the Law of Moses?

Maybe within this very Iota, and what it truly means.

"Iota" refers to the scriptural law, as opposed to the strictly spoken one that Jesus willfully preaches.

The written law, the scriptural one, is Moses', or, if you prefer, God's, as far as given on the Sinaï in the form of written tablets.

Not convinced ? Well, you may remember this :

"Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil." (Mt 5:17)

Anyway I'm not come to convince you...

reply to post by Pr0sp3r0


I agree with you.






If Jesus came to abolish the laws, he would of said it point blank.
Instead he said he came to fullfill. He was promised to Moses by GOD before he died.
Along with the song that is kept next to the ark as witness for GOD against Isreal.

Their love for the father had waxed cold. The priests added to and deducted from the words of GOD.
Which was clearly stated in the verses I gave to whats his face.

GOD, JESUS and the Prophets were and are very blunt.
Its kinda hard to put words in their mouth's if you read the whole book and just dont follow anyone who says they are a preacher, teacher, rabbi, priest.

Originally posted by Mividau
Could you give the evidence that this god you are alluding to is the God and Father of Jesus and not an angel, as he is referred to as, by Stephan in his monologue in the Book of Acts, and numerous places by Paul?
This is what you are talking about, Right??
ACTS 7
30And when forty years were expired, there appeared to him in the wilderness of mount Sinai an [angel of the Lord] in a flame of fire in a bush.
31When Moses saw it, he wondered at the sight: and as he drew near to behold it, [the voice of the LORD came unto him,]
32Saying,[ I am the God of thy fathers, the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob. Then Moses trembled, and durst not behold.]
Did an Angel appear because no human can handle the full beautiful majesty of GOD???

No
Here's another part further into Stephen's speech,

This is the man (Moses) who was in the congregation in the wilderness with the angel who spoke to him at Mount Sinai, and with our ancestors, and he received living oracles to give to you.

Notice it does not say, God.
Then at the end, before being killed, he says,

Acts 7:53 You received the law by decrees given by angels, but you did not obey it.”

When Moses was alone on the mountain, as in when receiving the tablets it seems like the account of it has the Lord directly interacting with him, and does not seen to give an indication that there was anyone else there, other than the angel who said the phrase people later made into a name, a name which you choose to pick up yourself as being the actual supreme being. But in the New Testament it gives no indication that the angel calling himself by that phrase, in lieu of an actual name which he seemed reluctant to divulge, was anything other than an angel. You may have a formula that you created to deal with the contradiction in your own mind but I don't see you being able to transfer that same way of thinking in a believable fashion to where a Christian would find it sensible or acceptable.
Here is some other quotes, since you seem to want to argue the point with me.

Hebrews 2:1 Therefore we must pay closer attention to what we have heard, so that we do not drift away. 2:2 For if the message spoken through angels proved to be so firm that every violation or disobedience received its just penalty, 2:3 how will we escape if we neglect such a great salvation?
Galatians 3:19‏ Why then was the law given? It was added because of transgressions, until the arrival of the descendant to whom the promise had been made. It was administered through angels by an intermediary.
1 Corinthians 10:10‏ And do not complain, as some of them did, and were killed by the destroying angel.

In the telling of the story of the rebellion of Korah, in the Old Testament, it says, the Lord.

Numbers 16:30
But if the Lord does something entirely new, and the earth opens its mouth and swallows them up along with all that they have, and they go down alive to the grave, then you will know that these men have despised the Lord!”

the second thing would be to have evidence that Jesus acknowledged the Mosaic law as being authoritative in general, and the keeping of the Sabbath, in particular.
I would also like to add there is more then 10 laws, and what Jesus changed is what Man added to the law.

You can say that but it is only a guess and when Jesus seems to be changing the law, he is quoting Moses.

He came to fulfill the law and the ancient promises his father gave.

And what would those be?

Matt 4
**** 4But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, [but by [every word] that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.]******
10Then saith Jesus unto him, Get thee hence, Satan: for it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve.

The devil was misquoting the scripture and was twisting it to make it seem like God meant something other than what he intended. Jesus knew the scripture better than that and was not fooled and used scripture to refute the devil. So rather than directly endorsing a particular god, Jesus was throwing back the same weapons the devil used on him but Jesus used them even more effectively.

MATT 5
*****17Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.*****
*****18For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.*******
*****19Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.*******

Which is what I already covered. This was a sort of counterbalance to what Moses had, which was etched stone.

MATT 6
8Be not ye therefore like unto them: for your Father knoweth what things ye have need of, before ye ask him.
9After this manner therefore pray ye: Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name.
10Thy kingdom come, Thy will be done in earth, as it is in heaven.
11Give us this day our daily bread.
12And forgive us our debts, as we forgive our debtors.
13And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil: For thine is the kingdom, and the power, and the glory, for ever. Amen.
^^I Think the LORDs prayer may prove you're first question. And even you're second question.
24No man can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other. Ye cannot serve God and mammon.

It does not say Yahweh in the Lords Prayer. There may be a similarity but it is just in a preference of the translators to use the word Lord in place of Yahweh where it is found in the Hebrew scripture, and the name given the prayer, which also has the word, Lord, in it. But that is a rather thin argument to say that this is proof the the Father referred to by Jesus was in fact Yahweh.

MATT 7
21Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven;[ but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.]

Same as above.

MATT 24
35Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.
So by these it would be implied, correct??

Jesus was talking about his own words, as speaking as the Son of God.

P.S. Sorry it took me so long to answer, got 5 youngings lol

reply to post by Pr0sp3r0

Iota" refers to the scriptural law, as opposed to the strictly spoken one that Jesus willfully preaches.
The written law, the scriptural one, is Moses', or, if you prefer, God's, as far as given on the Sinaï in the form of written tablets.

How do you know that?
Instead of saying, "I am not here to convince you." why don't you just back up what you are saying or are you content with empty words and feel you have now discharged your obligation to the truth?
Something you can find in the reference material is that phrase jot and tittle, was a figure of speech, which I would take to mean, that it is not always to be taken literally.
I said this in my last post but will repeat it in case you missed it, those words of Jesus were used as a device to counterbalance the device that Moses had, which was those etched stones you just referred to.
If you read tis section in the Gospels without your preconceived notions of doctrinal orthodoxy, it is plain to see that he meant what he just said, would not pass away, just as the same thought is repeated in the line that Mividau quoted in her reply to me. Just in case there was a doubt to what he was referring to, there he goes again but this time makes a point of showing that he is talking about his own words.

reply to post by Mividau

TO: jmdewey60 ,

I can see by you're reply that you will not be satisfied by any responce. So I have a question for you.
Please give all verses where Jesus specificly abolished the seventh day Sabbath. I will be surprised if you could too. We both know the text could be swayed in either direction. The same verses you show me, I can turn around on you and visa versa.

We both know this. So dont sit there and try to be condensending to me and others when we reply to you. We also both know there is NO VERSE WHERE JESUS OUT RIGHT ABOLOISH'S THE LAW OF THE SEVENTH DAY SABBATH.

You and I also know the best verse you have is "Jesus is the lord of the SABBATH"
That is the only one you have.

So instead of answering my question, you try to gain the advantage by throwing out a challenge that forces me to prove this point you have chosen.
You do give the excuse that I would not accept your proof, so instead of submitting evidence, you put the blame on me for why you can't submit any. How nice. So then the onlooker is to assume you actually had some evidence in the first place, which you have chosen to hold back for some reason.
OK, fine, then I will say, You have absolutely no evidence that Jesus endorses the Law of Moses restrictions on behaviour during the Sabbath. See your trickery? You don't want to admit what I just said, so you build a straw man that you can burn down by trying to force me to defend some claim I never had any intention to make.
So, don't be condescending, you say? Hah, while you use cut-throat rhetorical tactics to squash opposition, how Yahweh-like of you.
There is a God and that God did create the Heaven and the Earth. He very well may have rested on the seventh day and made it holy, whatever that means. Later on, much later, an angel said, don't worry about who I am, exactly, just assume that I am the same angel who represented God in the past. Moses could have asked something like, "Then what are you doing here in Sinai where our ancestors never lived and you seem to be associated with some sort of foreign worship under this man, Jethro."
So much, much later, Jesus comes along and decides to go to the synagogue on the Sabbath as a weekly custom and then to use that time to do some healing, remembering his Father who he had know previously, having come from heaven, and thought, "Oh a nice way to remember the Creator who made the perfect people He put into the Garden, if I could restore these lame and sick and blind." then along comes the enforcers of the Law of Moses and say, "no, you can not do that which is forbidden."
My point being, you are that scribe and you are that Pharisee, laying down the law, but not the law of God the Creator, but the angel of Sinai who liked nothing better but to impersonate gods to whoever would accept him.

Originally posted by Mividau
I am not a seventh day anything. I am a christian that headed the warning's of Daniel and Revelation's.
And their god is not my GOD.
I apologize to have upset you this much. Just my thought's sorry.

My fair lady, I'm not upset about anything. When I was a christian, I met a SDA and he gave me literature to read about how Saturday is the sabbath day and that those who were not observing Saturday as the sabbath were taking the mark of the beast.

Anyways, I don't see anyone being hindered from buying or selling because they don't observe the true sabbath (and I agree that it is Saturday). That was one of the things this mark was supposed to keep you from doing if you didn't have it.

I think we can clearly see the reasoning for the "Remember the Sabbath" law. Jesus explains this in Mark 2:23-28. Specifically this portion.

And he said unto them, The sabbath was made for man, and not man for the sabbath

The sabbath was commanded as a day of rest for the benefit of man so that they couldn't be worked 7 days a week. The sabbath wasn't made for God. As Jesus clearly stated God did not make make men so they could honor the sabbath but the other way around. Elevating the sabbath to a position higher than men is the reversal of what God intended.

Keeping of the sabbath day was not in of itself the ends to a mean but rather it was a method where people were forced to rest and take a break just as God took a day off after the 6th day in Genesis. The legalistic approach of following ever single rule Moses handed out without any filtering of common sense is one of the things Jesus routinely spoke against. The Pharisees were masters of enslaving people with unkeepable laws.

If you demand worship on Saturday do you really think that alone keeps the law? Do you still cook food? That is prohibited. Do you still travel by car (Building fire in the engine)? If so then you've broken the sabbath laws. Keep it all perfectly or you're no better than a hypocrites and a Pharisees.

reply to post by Mividau

If Jesus came to abolish the laws, he would of said it point blank.

He did, you were just not paying attention.

“This cup is the new covenant in my blood.

The New Covenant made the previous one old, which is the Mosaic Law.
Whatever the Sabbath was before Moses, then have a good time with that but you can not support your argument for the mosaic version of the Sabbath.
You could, possibly with some sort of philosophy but not from the New Testament.
Jesus allowed his disciples that which was forbidden by Moses.
He gave a sort of excuse to the pharisees but if you go back and read the story of how David made that claim, he did it under false pretenses, in other words, David lied.
So why was Jesus using a lie as a defense?
Because David had the authority as rightful king but declined to use that authority while the former king was still alive.
So Jesus meant that untill he uttered the words, "It is finished" then he would not openly overthrow the former system.

TO: jmdewey60 ,

I can see by you're reply that you will not be satisfied by any responce. So I have a question for you.
Please give all verses where Jesus specificly abolished the seventh day Sabbath. I will be surprised if you could too. We both know the text could be swayed in either direction. The same verses you show me, I can turn around on you and visa versa.

We both know this. So dont sit there and try to be condensending to me and others when we reply to you. We also both know there is NO VERSE WHERE JESUS OUT RIGHT ABOLOISH'S THE LAW OF THE SEVENTH DAY SABBATH.

You and I also know the best verse you have is "Jesus is the lord of the SABBATH"
That is the only one you have.
So instead of answering my question, you try to gain the advantage by throwing out a challenge that forces me to prove this point you have chosen.

First that is what you did to me. When I noticed that you're mind is already made up there is no point in argueing against you as it seems. You can't teach somebody something they already know.

You do give the excuse that I would not accept your proof, so instead of submitting evidence, you put the blame on me for why you can't submit any. How nice.

Actually NO, you already showed you do not accept proof by you're original post. Closed mindedness is of you're own fault not mine. I did not close you're mind for you. You did that yourself.

My answer to you're question is a question now. Give a specific verse where Jesus aboloish's the law.
You can't so now you are throwing a temper tamptrum. I got asked the same question 8 years ago.
Once I relizzed no matter how far back I dig it doesnt say that. That is when my view changed and I unlearned everything I was taught.

So then the onlooker is to assume you actually had some evidence in the first place, which you have chosen to hold back for some reason.
OK, fine, then I will say, You have absolutely no evidence that Jesus endorses the Law of Moses restrictions on behaviour during the Sabbath. See your trickery?

Actually I said that in the above post. Both of us could use the same verses for and against the view point.
The fact I cant prove he abolished it speaks volumes for me though.

You don't want to admit what I just said, so you build a straw man that you can burn down by trying to force me to defend some claim I never had any intention to make.

No what I have is a question you cant answer. Within the answer to my question is you're answer. You cannot find a verse were Jesus has abolished the laws. I do not put my own interpertations on his words. I allow Jesus to speak for himself. He seemed to do a pretty good job of it.


These verses is where my point of view come from........

Revelation 12
17 And the dragon was enraged with the woman, and he went to make war with the rest of her
offspring, who keep the commandments of God and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

Daniel 7
[[ 25 He shall speak pompous words against the Most High,
Shall persecute[d] the saints of the Most High,
And shall intend to change times and law

Revelation 17

5 And on her forehead a name was written:

MYSTERY, BABYLON THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND OF THE ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH.

6 I saw the woman, drunk with the blood of the saints and with the blood of the martyrs of Jesus.
And when I saw her, I marveled with great amazement.


So, don't be condescending, you say? Hah, while you use cut-throat rhetorical tactics to squash opposition, how Yahweh-like of you.

Isnt that what you tried to do to us??

There is a God and that God did create the Heaven and the Earth.

Wait in you're OP didnt you say That I was not allowed to use this in my argument. Because every civilization has a creation story. A little unfair you get to bend the rules dont you think.

He very well may have rested on the seventh day and made it holy, whatever that means. Later on, much later, an angel said, don't worry about who I am, exactly, just assume that I am the same angel who represented God in the past. Moses could have asked something like, "Then what are you doing here in Sinai where our ancestors never lived and you seem to be associated with some sort of foreign worship under this man, Jethro."
So much, much later, Jesus comes along and decides to go to the synagogue on the Sabbath as a weekly custom and then to use that time to do some healing, remembering his Father who he had know previously, having come from heaven, and thought, "Oh a nice way to remember the Creator who made the perfect people He put into the Garden, if I could restore these lame and sick and blind." then along comes the enforcers of the Law of Moses and say, "no, you can not do that which is forbidden."

The priest and rabbi's added to the law's of GOD. The fact that Jesus obeyed them (The way GOD intended not man) is a answer in its self is it not???

My point being, you are that scribe and you are that Pharisee, laying down the law, but not the law of God the Creator, but the angel of Sinai who liked nothing better but to impersonate gods to whoever would accept him.

So anyone that decide's to honor the father by obeying the seventh day sabbath is a pharisee and trying to impersonate GOD?

MATT 7
5Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother's eye.

6Give not that which is holy unto the dogs, neither cast ye your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under their feet, and turn again and rend you.

7Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you:

8For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened.

21Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven;[ but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.]

MAtt 4
4But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, [but by [every word] that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.]

MATT 5
17Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.

18For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

19Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.


I apologize for not seeing things from you're view point. But I use too.
I would have never called you what you called me. We both know what you called me.
Luckily GOD doesnt have you're heart, He forgives.

I'd also like to ask you a second question. If Moses listend to who you claim he did.
Why did Jesus not out right rebuke Moses for being a false prophit?? Jesus was good for calling people out wasnt he??

If Jesus came to abolish the laws, he would of said it point blank. He did, you were just not paying attention.

“This cup is the new covenant in my blood.

The New Covenant made the previous one old, which is the Mosaic Law.
Whatever the Sabbath was before Moses, then have a good time with that but you can not support your argument for the mosaic version of the Sabbath.
You could, possibly with some sort of philosophy but not from the New Testament.
So Jesus meant that untill he uttered the words, "It is finished" then he would not openly overthrow the former

I can if I understand the HOLY CONVOCATION'S OF GOD. Which by denying those you are unknowingly denying who Christ truly is. You cant deny Mt. Sinai without denying Jesus. For he was one of the prophets promised to MOses on his death by GOD.


It goes back to the feast of unlevend bread. [Levening equals sin] At the last day of the feast, it was called GOD's sacrifice. Each family was to take a unblemished [SINLESS] lamd. Cook it in their court yard.

The new covanant is that you have faith that Jesus was that unblemished lamb that GOD our father sacrificed for our sin's.
Faith that it was so powerfull that it covered all sin's from the 1st to the last.
Faith that no more blood sacrifice's were meant to die in our place for sin that happend in Eden.

But that only makes sense if you believe that Moses was a prophet of GOD......

Originally posted by dbates
I think we can clearly see the reasoning for the "Remember the Sabbath" law. Jesus explains this in Mark 2:23-28. Specifically this portion.

And he said unto them, The sabbath was made for man, and not man for the sabbath

The sabbath was commanded as a day of rest for the benefit of man so that they couldn't be worked 7 days a week. The sabbath wasn't made for God. As Jesus clearly stated God did not make make men so they could honor the sabbath but the other way around. Elevating the sabbath to a position higher than men is the reversal of what God intended.

Keeping of the sabbath day was not in of itself the ends to a mean but rather it was a method where people were forced to rest and take a break just as God took a day off after the 6th day in Genesis. The legalistic approach of following ever single rule Moses handed out without any filtering of common sense is one of the things Jesus routinely spoke against. The Pharisees were masters of enslaving people with unkeepable laws.

If you demand worship on Saturday do you really think that alone keeps the law? Do you still cook food? That is prohibited. Do you still travel by car (Building fire in the engine)? If so then you've broken the sabbath laws. Keep it all perfectly or you're no better than a hypocrites and a Pharisees.

Thank you a gift from GOD.......A day to enjoy lives blessings
I hope people dont think I just blindly not use common sense when partakeing of the sabbath.
I believe that Jesus showed what GOd meant. Like allowing people to die not to break the sabbath was a horrid thing in GODs eye's.

"My fair lady, I'm not upset about anything. When I was a christian, I met a SDA and he gave me literature to read about how Saturday is the sabbath day and that those who were not observing Saturday as the sabbath were taking the mark of the beast." Hydro

OH OK, No I dont believe this. I believe there may be a time when we will knowingly choose between Light and darkness. I think some how the sabbath may tye into that. But it was just an opinion. Not a condemnation on anyone's beliefs.

"Anyways, I don't see anyone being hindered from buying or selling because they don't observe the true sabbath (and I agree that it is Saturday). That was one of the things this mark was supposed to keep you from doing if you didn't have it. " Hydro

Right now I dont think we need to worry about the Mark. I just enjoy talking about religious theories with other's.

Originally posted by Hydroman
Anyways, I don't see anyone being hindered from buying or selling because they don't observe the true sabbath (and I agree that it is Saturday). That was one of the things this mark was supposed to keep you from doing if you didn't have it.

Exactly. I don't believe that there will ever be enough control to be able to determine if whether or not people observe the sabbath nor do I think they (TPTB) will ever care about that. Basically they'll not want you to worship or observe anything other than "The Beast" all 7 days of the week. Anyone worshiping other than that will be in trouble no matter which day they worship on so this could not be the Mark of the Beast. It is quite clear from scripture that this has to do with buying and selling goods not the day of the week you observe for worship.

Funny thing, our church has services on Saturday and Sunday. I actually went to the service tonight. Would the Mark of the Beast just mean we would have to stop Saturday services? Obviously that wouldn't make any sense.

reply to post by Mividau

We also both know there is NO VERSE WHERE JESUS OUT RIGHT ABOLOISH'S THE LAW OF THE SEVENTH DAY SABBATH.

I never said that.
This is the straw man I was talking about.
You are trying to get me to say this, which I never intended to say, nor do I believe it.
I told you what I have a problem with and that is 1) the so-called name of that angel, the one that people were wanting a name for a god from, but he denied them that satisfaction, so they created a name, anyway, from the words the angel used to explain why he was not going to give them a name. When you choose to pick up and use that name, again, you are joining in the same error as those people worshipping the golden calf.
2) You are ignoring the fact that the New Testament never establishes the current authoritative nature of the Mosaic Law and in fact goes on to describe how it was superseded.

These are the problems I have and not with the Sabbath per se. It is the application of the Mosaic Law to the Sabbath which I have a problem with.

You are also wrong about the doctors of the law, or the Pharisees. They did not add laws to make it stricter, but actually loosened then up. If there was a Pharisaical rule that you can walk so many paces on the Sabbath, it was to allow for any walking, such as going to the synagogue, where strictly following Moses, one would never leave their house.
Jesus said the Sabbath was made for man, as another poster pointed out on this thread, so people would not work all week. When the Hebrews were in Egypt, they were under a ten day work week, so Moses put them back on a seven day week cycle before the Sabbath was ever officially demanded in the giving of the ten commandments.

reply to post by Mividau

You and I also know the best verse you have is "Jesus is the lord of the SABBATH"
That is the only one you have.

That is you guessing, and wrongly.
For one, my goal would not be to "abolish" the sabbath, something universally recognized as being a good thing regardless of any imagined god or divine laws.
Secondly, I would not use that as an argument in favor of reaching a particular conclusion. If I was to use that line, it would be as part of a conclusion after the arguing had stopped.
My main argument would be in regards to the New Covenant which Christians should recognize as being fundamental to the Christian belief system.

reply to post by Mividau

Actually NO, you already showed you do not accept proof by you're original post. Closed mindedness is of you're own fault not mine. I did not close you're mind for you. You did that yourself.

No, wrong again. What I was saying is that I do not find giving a description of a god or whoever creating the world as proof that they are the same god. To understand my point, imagine having to accept every god in the world who is connected somehow to some sort of creation myth as legitimately being God.

My answer to you're question is a question now. Give a specific verse where Jesus aboloish's the law.
You can't so now you are throwing a temper tamptrum. I got asked the same question 8 years ago.
Once I relizzed no matter how far back I dig it doesnt say that. That is when my view changed and I unlearned everything I was taught.

Again, I never made that claim.

The fact I cant prove he abolished it speaks volumes for me though.

So? And again, does not have anything to do with the points I brought up.

No what I have is a question you cant answer. Within the answer to my question is you're answer. You cannot find a verse were Jesus has abolished the laws. I do not put my own interpertations on his words. I allow Jesus to speak for himself. He seemed to do a pretty good job of it.

hint: at this point, the proper thing to do is to quote me saying something like that.