No Rapture

reply to post by bogomil


Thanks foir report.

Originally posted by randyvs
reply to post by bogomil

 

Thanks foir report.

If the logic in my post overwhelmed you or is of the wrong type, we can go the flying spaghetti monster-way instead. It's more fun, at least for us pastafarians (which I am for the duration on a test-basis).

Originally posted by bogomil

Originally posted by randyvs
reply to post by bogomil

 

Thanks foir report.

If the logic in my post overwhelmed you or is of the wrong type, we can go the flying spaghetti monster-way instead. It's more fun, at least for us pastafarians (which I am for the duration on a test-basis).

What ever you like.

Originally posted by randyvs

Originally posted by bogomil

Originally posted by randyvs
reply to post by bogomil

 

Thanks foir report.

If the logic in my post overwhelmed you or is of the wrong type, we can go the flying spaghetti monster-way instead. It's more fun, at least for us pastafarians (which I am for the duration on a test-basis).

.

As long as you have something to do.

As an atheist, I agree, no rapture.

It's strange that when we atheists can't understand what certain scripture means it's because we don't have the holy spirit helping us. What is the problem when christians don't understand what certain scripture means? They certainly can't agree on the meanings of many things.


But say that a rapture does happen. Will all children get to go? If so, what happens to pregnant women? Will the babies come bursting out of their mommy's stomachs? Or will their stomachs just kinda deflate?

reply to post by randyvs


I think the greatest argument against the Rapture is that all of the great Christian writers and Church Fathers are silent on the subject until recent times (last few hundred years). If the early Church Fathers who studied at the feet of the apostles are silent on it, it is because the apostles never taught it.

reply to post by Hydroman


Those questions asked from your atheist view do tend to torment.

Kallisti
Point taken .

Originally posted by randyvs

Those questions asked from your atheist view do tend to torment.

What doest thou meanest?

"HE that puts himself last, puts himself first"

reply to post by Hydroman


Basically I mean

I face a ton of tough questions on this site. That, is one tough motha. I do have to sight Kallisti has a good point.
As for me I think the first hurdle is the important one to every believer. That ye believe in the shed blood.
That be hence I comest from.:

Let doctrine be doctrine and don't worry. The blood has washed me clean. The blood is the only hope I need. If rapture comes or not what does it matter? It really absolutely dosn't matter. Take me now or take me later as long as I'm taken.

reply to post by kallisti36


From my reading of Paul's letters to the Thessalonians, I could just as easily see him describing Jesus showing up in Hades and creating a bit of a bright spot in the midst of it where the ones who loved him in life could join him and have a nicer existence in the netherworld.

reply to post by jmdewey60


You stumbled across the "Harrowing of Hades" in the scripture. This is where Yahshuah entered Sheol and freed the righteous dead. He wouldn't make a bright spot in Sheol, because Sheol is death which Christ must free us from. He is the bright spot in Sheol, the one that leads us out. Check out this Orthodox icon of the Resurrection and Harrowing of Hades (Sheol): iconreader.wordpress.com... What's interesting about the Harrowing is that it presents the possibility that Christ might save those who died without accepting his sacrifice. Some would say this can't happen, because Christ descended into Sheol once 2,000 years ago, but you'll notice that in the Gospel of John, Christ speaks of this event in the past tense: "Your Father Abraham rejoiced to see My day, and he saw it and was glad". What's interesting about this is that it places the event of Yahshuah Messiah's sacrifice, atonement, and Harrowing of Hades outside of our chronology. I don't believe in universal salvation by any means, every book of the NT confirms a judgment. However, I do believe if the gospel was proclaimed "even among the dead" and that Yahshuah "went and made a proclamation to the spirits in prison, who in former times did not obey" (1 Peter) then there is some hope for Christ to come to those in death who did not accept him in life.

"Let no one lament their poverty, for the universal kingdom has been revealed. Let no one mourn their transgressions, for pardon has dawned from the grave. Let no one fear death, for the Saviour's death has set us free. He that was taken by death has annihilated it! He descended into Hades and took Hades captive! ...He embittered it when it tasted his flesh! And anticipating this Isaiah exclaimed: "Hades was embittered when it encountered thee in the lower regions". It was embittered, for it was abolished! It was embittered, for it was mocked! It was embittered, for it was purged! It was embittered, for it was despoiled! It was embittered, for it was bound in chains! It took a body and came upon God! It took earth and encountered heaven! It took what it saw but crumbled before what it had not seen! O death, where is thy sting? O Hades, where is thy victory? Christ is risen, and you are overthrown!" -St. John Chrysostom

reply to post by kallisti36

"Your Father Abraham rejoiced to see My day, and he saw it and was glad"

That's a real puzzler and you give one explanation which is that it is an event outside of time and I guess Hades would be a place outside of space, so the two would go together.

I struggled with this teaching for awhile but when I look at scripture the way it was written I would have to place myself in the Post-Trib category. I have not seen any valid scripture that supports the Pre or Mid-Trib doctrine. It's been awhile since I've looked into this, I don't like to write novels but here are the scriptures that leads me to believe that I am right.

Matthew 24:29-31
29 “Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.
30 Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

1 Thessalonians 4:16
16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first.

1 Corinthians 15:51-52
51 Behold, I tell you a mystery: We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed—
52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

Revelation 11:15-19 The Seventh Trumpet

15 Then the seventh angel sounded: And there were loud voices in heaven, saying, “The kingdoms of this world have become the kingdoms of our Lord and of His Christ, and He shall reign forever and ever!”
16 And the twenty-four elders who sat before God on their thrones fell on their faces and worshiped God,
17 saying:

“ We give You thanks, O Lord God Almighty,
The One who is and who was and who is to come,
Because You have taken Your great power and reigned.
18 The nations were angry, and Your wrath has come,
And the time of the dead, that they should be judged,
And that You should reward Your servants the prophets and the saints,
And those who fear Your name, small and great,
And should destroy those who destroy the earth.”

19 Then the temple of God was opened in heaven, and the ark of His covenant was seen in His temple. And there were lightnings, noises, thunderings, an earthquake, and great hail.

It's hard for some to believe that they will be tried and test like never before when it comes to their faith. The idea of having your head chopped off for believing in Christ is not very appealing to most believers. But this is what will separate the true from the false.

1 Peter 4:16
16 Yet if anyone suffers as a Christian, let him not be ashamed, but let him glorify God in this matter.
17 For the time has come for judgment to begin at the house of God; and if it begins with us first, what will be the end of those who do not obey the gospel of God?

On that day those who demand physical proof will get it, but it won't be pretty for them.

John 20:29
29 Jesus said to him, “Thomas, because you have seen Me, you have believed. Blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed.”

Nice thread.