French Armour, English Longbowmen, Agincourt.. EU Rewriting History!

Originally posted by bluemirage5
reply to post by CrankyPantsUK

 

It only took 3 days for the Normans to invade England so of course the French are no match for them.

The Normans were not French, in fact they hated and subjugated the French so any boasting on this score from any Frenchman is particularly hollow, almost like hailing German victories of 1940-44 as being "French" because the Germans happened to rule France at the time. Think about it.

This fact is taken from one of my favourite books of recent times, "1000 Years of Annoying The French" and I recommend it as very enjoyable

Originally posted by CasiusIgnoranze
reply to post by CrankyPantsUK

 

Well 300 spartans did hold of a million Persions (for a while) during the battle of Thermopylae...

Actually the 'million persions' was vastly exaggerated, and there were about 2300 Greeks overall with 300 being spartans.

Also, England needs it's own national anthem!
Proud to be English

reply to post by waynos


I love that book. I fact I have most of his books regarding the English and the French. Although, he deeply loves all that is French and lives in Paris.

Originally posted by thoughtsfull
While the Normans themselves where mostly Northmen

The bulk of Williams army at Hastings and the subsequent conquest were actually Bretons who who ruled over. Yes, the Normans were Norse men (hence the name), but his army was made up of the very same people that the Saxons had toppled from power some 500 years back.

The Bretons are the same ethnic group as the Cornish and Welsh - all of whom were the dominant ethnic group in England and Wales after the fall of Rome ...

That said, most of the "normal" people stayed the same as it was just the elites that were toppled, much like after Hastings. It's all very silly for people to claim now "I'm actually a Norman" or "My grandad was a Norman who tried to marry a Saxon". No, you're not. Not unless your family is so inbred, they have managed to avoid breeding with anyone of non-Norman descent for 10 centuries. I don't mean that as an insult. We're talking about 1000 years ago and you will find your related to more people of "non-Norman" descent than actual Norman descent.(see rediculous claim below)

Originally posted by bluemirage5
Both my great grandfathers were Normans too, one of them was the first to ever marry a Saxon....and the last.

But then you say:

Originally posted by bluemirage5
Most definately you should. Mine are Cornish. In those days, marrying a Saxon was out of the question and marrying a Catholic was and is still a big no no. I guess thats why we still breed very tall men.

Huh? Cornish aren't Norman!!

I myself have Irish ancestry, but I wouldn't call myself Irish. I also have Cornish and Devonish ancestors, as well as some from the Midlands and further North, this is all only going back 200 years! If I go back far enough, I am sure I can turn up some Saxons, some Normans, some French, maybe a Russian, perhaps if I go far enough I will find a Roman plus I am damn sure there is nobility in there and who knows what else...

Considering all that, I am English, the ultimate mongrel nation and damned proud of it!

reply to post by stumason


Well, gee, I must be an inbred then!

I know not all Cornish were Norman; but many Normans did in fact settle there; today they are mixed.

We've done our family tree and we know who is who and from where going all too way back to ancient times.

I have no doubts you'll find a Frank, a Russian and a Roman or even a Spaniard in your ancestory if you have some Irish heritage. We just liked to stick with our own kind until the infusion of other ethnics jumped in over the 18th & 19th century then we shut the gate again.

reply to post by bluemirage5


I've found during my own family tree research that it is very much selective as to what branch of the tree you follow as to what you can really claim to be. Are you suggesting that going back as far as the Doomsday book, which in all honesty is as far as anyone can expect to go, that every one of your ancestors hailed from Cornwall and, more specifically, were Norman? We're talking thousands of people there...

In the simplest terms, just going back to your great-great grandparents you have over 30 people there, each with their own ancestry.

My point being, it is a tall order to claim you are Norman, when all of the country had Normans settling in their area's and they all interbred with the locals. Had you claimed you were Cornish, I could believe that, due to the degree of isolation that neck of the woods has enjoyed, but anything more than that is being rather specific.

It's like someone from Yorkshire claiming to be a Viking....

You're so far removed from that time period with such a huge amount of potential cross-breeding having taking place, that the DNA that is specific to that particular ethnic group will be diluted to hell. DNA studies show up markers, for sure, but to claim to be a pure-blood "insert ethnic group" is a tall order that I doubt anyone could match.

reply to post by stumason


I have no issues with adding Bretons to the list, however things did not stay the same.. the imposition of Canon law did have a drastic impact on society.. not least in how women where treated, but that is a topic for another day

and I stand by the notion that landing at Hastings was a direct attack on Harolds personal holdings and estates, not only to provoke him into making the mistake of advancing into Sussex but to also send a clear signal to the remaining lords loyal to Harold what would happen to them/their families, a mistake that cost him his life and kingdom.

As for me, I can trace my paternal line back to the domesday book, mostly due to the fact my family where either scholars, craftsmen or downright blaggards so the nearest my paternal line is to Royalty was swindling them out of something precious (and then getting caught, so not that smart)

I must add that none of that is my own work as I am far to lazy to do that type of research, it was undertaken by my Great uncle who being a scholar had way to much time on his hands.

reply to post by stumason


Have you had your DNA testing? Best done through the patriarchal side.

I come from a very close knit family and no I don't claim to be a "pure" ethnic group. My two grandmothers; one is Italian (Protestant) and the other is Jewish from Dutch/Persian stock whom could'nt be put in the same room together.

Have a leek and get over it.

The french lost, the Titanic sunk and there is no Santa Clause.

For goodness sake, do not ever call a Breton French. The Welsh and Cornish connection is well made. Even the character Merlin is ment to have advised the King in Breton before he met Arthur.

nice

Originally posted by stumason

Originally posted by thoughtsfull
While the Normans themselves where mostly Northmen

The bulk of Williams army at Hastings and the subsequent conquest were actually Bretons who who ruled over. Yes, the Normans were Norse men (hence the name), but his army was made up of the very same people that the Saxons had toppled from power some 500 years back.

The Bretons are the same ethnic group as the Cornish and Welsh - all of whom were the dominant ethnic group in England and Wales after the fall of Rome ...

That said, most of the "normal" people stayed the same as it was just the elites that were toppled, much like after Hastings. It's all very silly for people to claim now "I'm actually a Norman" or "My grandad was a Norman who tried to marry a Saxon". No, you're not. Not unless your family is so inbred, they have managed to avoid breeding with anyone of non-Norman descent for 10 centuries. I don't mean that as an insult. We're talking about 1000 years ago and you will find your related to more people of "non-Norman" descent than actual Norman descent.(see rediculous claim below)

Originally posted by bluemirage5
Both my great grandfathers were Normans too, one of them was the first to ever marry a Saxon....and the last.

But then you say:

Originally posted by bluemirage5
Most definately you should. Mine are Cornish. In those days, marrying a Saxon was out of the question and marrying a Catholic was and is still a big no no. I guess thats why we still breed very tall men.

Huh? Cornish aren't Norman!!

I myself have Irish ancestry, but I wouldn't call myself Irish. I also have Cornish and Devonish ancestors, as well as some from the Midlands and further North, this is all only going back 200 years! If I go back far enough, I am sure I can turn up some Saxons, some Normans, some French, maybe a Russian, perhaps if I go far enough I will find a Roman plus I am damn sure there is nobility in there and who knows what else...

Considering all that, I am English, the ultimate mongrel nation and damned proud of it!

Well said Sir!

Mongrels are more faithful, cleverer and fitter than the inbred pedigree

That is why this nation of mongrels subdued whole continents!

Have to say that this has turned into an interesting thread.

I love history

Learnt quite a bit from you guys

Thanks for your well written and researched comments

Much appreciated

The French lost at Agincourt due to sloppy tactics, being suckered into a horrible position and the WhoopA#$ power of the Longbow. They ran into a killzone and guess what.....they got killed. They deserved to lose the battle, the way they fought it. Heavily armored Knights in a boggy swamp....that's a great plan there.