the 9mm vs .45 debate

9mm is the weak welfare gangster pistol of choice. the .45 will blow a hole through commercial bullet proof vests.

7.62 X 25 is better/hotter than 45, 9mm, 10mm or any semi auto pistol round in between, and is in enormous abundance and variety including Armor piercing, and its cheaper than all.

CZ 52 is a great pistol, but you need to put an updated stainless steel firing pin in it to make it all it can be, and watch out for Bulgarian sub-machine-gun ammo cuz ittle break ur gun

It all depends how and where the firearm is being used. You can't just compare them and say which one is "best" just flat out. They're very different obviously and each excel in certain situations. If we're talking self-defense in every day life then the .45 is obviously going to create a much more intimidating sound and do a lot more damage. although it is also going to be most likely a very serious or fatal injury on whomever it hits. it's also going to be a heavier gun and (possibly) less accurate than most 9mm.

I noticed that someone said something about body armor being a factor. When you're carrying a firearm for self defense you shouldn't really be worrying about body armor being an issue unless you have a job which you could encounter that or if you're in some serious trouble with the wrong people lol.


All that being said, I'd go with a 9mm for self defense purposes as it would be easier to carry and a little less messy. even though it might not send everyone running for the hills when you fire it, if you're going to need a gun to defend yourself then it will do the job. Besides,say some kid runs up behind you as you're getting in your car and wants your wallet or keys or whatever. Pulling a gun should be enough to get him out of there unless he's got one too, but blowing him apart with a .45 or possibly missing and shredding someones house is not necessary.


Where I live (Canada) you can't even get away with defending yourself with a firearm unless it's like an armed home invasion and you're going to be shot. So I do without either.

Originally posted by gossipnancy
9mm is the weak welfare gangster pistol of choice. the .45 will blow a hole through commercial bullet proof vests.

I'm caught speechless with gossipnancy's comment... Hmmm, what to say?

Well, talking about "welfare gangster pistol of choice" is just plain wrong... And, I can't comment more on that without sounding like a disposable-feminine-hygiene product.

As for .45ACPs vs commercial bullet proof vests, I'm not sure where you got your facts for your statement. But I have to disagree. What level is the vest? At what range are you talking about? What type of .45 ammo is being used? Maybe the actual KE would be enough to injure or kill the vest wearer at point blank. But I'm sure the vest will stop the bullet from penetrating.

Highest level a civilian can purchase is level IIIA or III. Both can protect against handgun rounds, including .45. See link below

Wiki : Ballistic Vest : Protection Levels

Type I (.22 LR; .380 ACP)

Type IIA (9 mm; .40 S&W; .45 ACP)

Type II (9 mm; .357 Magnum)

Type IIIA (.357 SIG; .44 Magnum)

Type III (Rifles)

Type IV (Armor Piercing Rifle)

I don't know for sure which is legal in US -- IIIA or III. Someone please correct me. Because I thought Level III was the highest for public.

Originally posted by anumohi
7.62 X 25 is better/hotter than 45, 9mm, 10mm or any semi auto pistol round in between, and is in enormous abundance and variety including Armor piercing, and its cheaper than all.

You know, I've never bothered looking at the 7.62x25 round as a candidate for purchasing. I personally don't know any one who uses this type of ammo. I did see some on sale and never considered purchasing one. Now, you have given me food for thought. I'll take a look. Thanks.

Hope admins don't see this as being off topic. I don't think it is.

Originally posted by Oroborus
Where I live (Canada) you can't even get away with defending yourself with a firearm unless it's like an armed home invasion and you're going to be shot. So I do without either.

Curious. What kind of Home Defense doctrine does Canada have? Is it universal throughout the country?

Some states with Castle Doctrine allow you to shoot if the person is in your home. But it is a big no-no shooting them assassin-style or in the back. As for on-the-streets, I've read some parts of Louisiana require people to defend a person being carjacked. Not sure how much is true. Never researched about it.

I personally own .22's, 380, 9mm, and 45 handguns.

End of the world scenario you will have better luck finding .22's and 9mm ammo parts etc, so make sure you have a reliable .22 rifle for hunting and a high cap 9mm handgun for personal proctection.

I have a one of the smallest or the smallest 45 handgun in the world AMT Backup 45, excellent stoping power, but heavy, I also have a Taurus TCP738 as a carry gun that I use most of the time because is very lightweight.

At the end of the day 45 is better, but if you are into practicing a lot on gun ranges 45's will get expensive.

I love 9mm and 45's equally, but for personal protection I use a good 380 hollow point ammo and practice a lot.

.22 = having cheap fun
380 = good for small carry gun
9mm = good for home defense (2 guns in different places in the house)
45 = loud bang, good stoping power but expensive.

Stopping power: how long until you stop shooting the BG.

Shot placement is key. A .380+P round in the heart trumps a .45 ACP in the shoulder. Two .380 rounds in center mass absolutely will gain the attention of any BG, short of someone on PCP.

I know there are the testosterone-infused "bigger is better" crowd, but shoot what you have the most control over. For me, it's the 9mm. I have a .40, but I have small hands and wrists and have a bit better control over a 9mm. If my .40 or a .45 is wide, say bye-bye to that grandma behind the BG. My 9mm, however, will likely not miss its mark.

/TOA

reply to post by guppy


As far as I understand, here in Canada a thief can walk into your house while you are home and walk right out with your home theater in his arms and you have no right whatsoever to physically restrain him from doing so.

You are however allowed to call the police, so they can resolve your situation for you.

Originally posted by guppy

Originally posted by anumohi
7.62 X 25 is better/hotter than 45, 9mm, 10mm or any semi auto pistol round in between, and is in enormous abundance and variety including Armor piercing, and its cheaper than all.

You know, I've never bothered looking at the 7.62x25 round as a candidate for purchasing. I personally don't know any one who uses this type of ammo. I did see some on sale and never considered purchasing one. Now, you have given me food for thought. I'll take a look. Thanks.

Hope admins don't see this as being off topic. I don't think it is.

Originally posted by Oroborus
Where I live (Canada) you can't even get away with defending yourself with a firearm unless it's like an armed home invasion and you're going to be shot. So I do without either.

Curious. What kind of Home Defense doctrine does Canada have? Is it universal throughout the country?

Some states with Castle Doctrine allow you to shoot if the person is in your home. But it is a big no-no shooting them assassin-style or in the back. As for on-the-streets, I've read some parts of Louisiana require people to defend a person being carjacked. Not sure how much is true. Never researched about it.

I believe it is throughout the country, there might be a slight difference in the law in Quebec cause they have their own separate police force and it's different over there. But as far as I know, the law is basically this: you do not have the right to even assault someone with any kind of weapon unless you can prove your life is absolutely in danger. So if someone comes in your house, legally you are supposed to sit and watch unless they point a gun at you or hit you with a weapon. otherwise you will go to jail.

reply to post by Oroborus


It is wild to see the difference between Canada and the US. Where I live the law is changing on December first. From that day forward if anyone, without a legal reason to be there, tries to force their way in to your home or car it is assumed they mean to cause death or serious bodily harm. You will have every right to shoot them where they stand once they make it through the entry way of their choice.

Here is the exact wording:

The lawful occupant of a home, motor vehicle, or workplace is presumed to have held a reasonable fear of imminent death or serious bodily harm to himself or herself or another when using defensive force that is intended or likely to cause death or serious bodily harm to another if both of the following apply:

(1) The person against whom the defensive force was used was in the process of unlawfully and forcefully entering, or had unlawfully and forcibly entered, a home, motor vehicle, or workplace, or if that person had removed or was attempting to remove another against that person's will from the home, motor vehicle, or workplace.

(2) The person who uses defensive force knew or had reason to believe that an unlawful and forcible entry or unlawful and forcible act was occurring or had occurred.

The only exceptions to taking a person against their will is made for police officers, bond enforcement agents, and a minor's legal guardian.

Also, for the purpose of this law home means any hotel room you rent or tent you camp in.

Okay, here's my take.

9mm lets you carry lots of fairly efficient rounds.

.45 cal lets you carry a few big, heavy, slow moving slugs. FMJ is a very poor manstopper despite it's size, of course that's also true for the 9mm.

In my opinion the .40 S&W beats both of them for a self defense carry pistol. It is the most widely used police cartridge in use in the US today. While some departments are going back to 9mm today in most cases it seems to be a political and financial decision rather than an effficiency decision.

I will say the .40 is probably the hardest to shoot. 9mm recoil is neglible while .45 is stronger but more of a gentle push rather than a harsh "slap". The .40 is stouter still and more of a quick "snap" rather than a gentle push. I still don't mind the .40 recoil and can get follow up shots off pretty fast. To be fair I'm a big guy with big hands so my experience may not be typical.

As far as damage to the target, the 155gr JHP .40 S&W very nearly matches the ballistics of the ultimate man stopper 125gr JHP .357 Magnum. Results in the field have also been similar.

Of course the reason the .40 has more recoil is simple: In most loadings it has more energy than either the .45 or 9mm:

[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/45a5a44bf8ea.jpg[/atsimg]


Of course no pistol ammo is a "magic" bullet. Pistols trade portability for lethality. Shot placement will trump almost all arguments over pistol ballistics. Still, looking for any edge, I want the most lethal round available to me in a carry gun. That's why I carry a .357 Magnum with 125gr JHP but I also have a Glock Model 22 and have carried it with Remington Golden Saber 165gr JHP ammo. I think either will serve me well and since my G22 is currently on loan to my daughter I carry the .357.

Originally posted by Darce
reply to post by guppy

 

You are however allowed to call the police, so they can resolve your situation for you.

Hahaha! I've known and were taught by a number of LEOs. Most of them have this to say about LEOs stopping crime:

Cops' job is not to stop crime but to report it.

Scary thought. But when you think about it, its so true... [shiver]

As for others who replied about Canadian home invasion laws, that S-U-C-K-S! But I'm glad the laws are changing for the better at wherever MikeNice81 lives:

Originally posted by MikeNice81
reply to post by Oroborus

 

It is wild to see the difference between Canada and the US. Where I live the law is changing on December first. From that day forward if anyone, without a legal reason to be there, tries to force their way in to your home or car it is assumed they mean to cause death or serious bodily harm. You will have every right to shoot them where they stand once they make it through the entry way of their choice.

I envy you guys....I live in Holland (Europe) and guys who love guns can only wish to own (legally) a .45 or a 9mm. So I wish I could enter the debate and tell you stuff from own experiance.

Excuse me...I am going to polish my Crosman pellet-pooper now.....

Originally posted by Oroborus
So if someone comes in your house, legally you are supposed to sit and watch unless they point a gun at you or hit you with a weapon. otherwise you will go to jail.

Hey, be polite. Make sure you ask if they would like a drink or some cookies. Stealing large items can work up quite a sweat. You may want to have some Gatorade or PowerBar ready if they collapse from exhaustion.

Originally posted by zatara
Excuse me...I am going to polish my Crosman pellet-pooper now.....

Hahaha! Sorry to laugh at your misfortune. But that was funny how you ended your post.

Only law abiding citizens follow gun control laws. Criminals love gun control. Hey, politicians! Recognize!

reply to post by wasco2


The only reason the .40S&W was invented was because the FBI chose their 9mm round based on bad science. They chose their 9mm bullet based on data that said a faster expanding hollow point was better even if it had significantly less penetration. It was all based on temporary wound cavities and "hydrostatic shock."

The 9mm bullet they chose met the criteria they asked for and came up less than an inch short. Because the bullet came up short Platt kept fighting down in Miami. If the bullet had travelled another inch Platt would have died before he could kill eight people.

Using the modern science of wound ballistics the FBI has changed their criteria. Because of that manufacturers have changed how they design bullets. If the FBI had been using 124gr+P Winchester T series or 147gr Federal HST they could have stopped the fight faster.

Then they wouldn't have had to scape goat the bullet that actually exceeded their requirements. Which in turn would have meant no need for the 10mm or it's modified brother the .40S&W.

The .40S&W offers no real advantage in actual shootings. With modern handgun bullet design everything from 9mm up to .45acp actually achieves near identical results in the human body. .40S&W usually ends up with less than 1" more of penetration and .075" of expansion than 9mm. That isn't a big deal when you are allready talking about 14 or 15 inches of penetration. .45acp actually ends up with near identical penetration and .1" of extra diameter when you compare 147gr 9mm to 230gr .45acp.

Once you go past paper and start looking in the bodies the debate really ends. The only place a .40S&W is going to give a big advantage is if you use 180gr to shoot through barriers. Then you are in the territory to also start looking at the .357Sig.

The FBI changing the performance requirements of their rounds had more impact on the shooting world than the developement of the .40S&W. With the modern criteria all of the major calibers have been drawn to with in a hair's breadth of ach other.

But hey, it isn't about the odds it is about the stakes. So, if you are comfortable, more power to you. Shoot straight and stay safe.

reply to post by MikeNice81


Energy is energy and the .40 and .45 have a good bit more of it than 9mm. I do reaize we're talking about relatively small differences here but any edge is better than no edge. I'm not going to check your numbrers on expansion but from what I read it seems like the difference between 9mm and .40 and .45 is a little more than you state. You are right in that the round in the FBIs 9mm performed as designed. The catastrophic 1986 shootout was more a failure of FBI tactics than a failure of the Winchester Silvertip ammo in their guns. You can kill people with any of them I just think you can kill people a little better with the .40 and .45 than the 9mm. Of course I think, hope, I might be able to kill people who need killing even a little better still with the 500 ft lbs in my 125 gr JHP .357 Magnum ammo. And besides, follow up shots are for people who miss the first time.

This is basically senseless. Why I say this is Each caliber has it's own benefits and negatives. The situations where you would need each is different sometimes. For instance If you want to Shoot Accurately, and maintain a High fire rate, with lower chances of the bullets traveling through the target and through walls or innocent people then the 9mm is a good cartridge, maybe the .40 S&W. Just like anything though you can point to situations where one benefits, and where one does not. The Calgary Police Force for instance decided to Use the .40 S&W because they wanted greater damage, but still have a higher rate of fire.There has to be a compromise whichever choice(s) you decide.

Simple go to the range, and shoot different calibers. Which one are you Most accurate with? Which one are you able to achieve the highest accuracy, and rate of fire? The downside to a .45, and a .44 Mag is if you miss, or have multiple targets which have high fire rates. Before you take the 2nd shot, Lead could be flying your way. I have shot 45's and 44's however you really notice that the time to make your followup is reduced slightly the larger caliber you go. I'm not one to dwell on what should I do if I'm in trouble. I don't go looking for it and it doesn't find me. I do feel Between the police and my own capabilities I have a good chance of defending myself from "the evildoers".

I feel comfortable with my handgun in .40 S&W. However I do not shoot it all the time since the ammo is a bit pricy. Same with my .45 also due to the fact it is more of a collectors handgun. I can always use my 9mm Glock, or .22 Buckmark and be happy at the end of the day. They all do their job well put the holes on the paper where I tell it to. Sometimes it is preference, like what do you like Better Ford-Dodge-Chev? In reality you are still completing the same task, just by different means.

I carry either a sig p229 (.40) or a charter arms .44 special revolver.

It's mission-dependent: It's my carry, so I want to end you right now.

In the field, I like my 92E (9mm). for reasons already expressed in the thread.

I have a couple .45s, but I know me, and if some cracked out meth-head is pulling on the clerk at the local Stop-N-Rob, I'll be far more comfortable with my sig. I have a Glock 30, but at this point I'm not going to place my life in its hands.

reply to post by Shadowalker


*cough* 500 S&W * cough *

wow thank you all for keeping this thread going and for all the experienced insight, I do not post on here as often as some of my other threads but i do read each reply thank you all