the 9mm vs .45 debate

Originally posted by Miraj
reply to post by JROCK2527

 

Just.. shoot them in the head..

It's not like we're going to be fighting Wolverine or the Teminator.

That's the answer to your question.

No! technically the answer to my question wuld be... I prefer the 9mm because..... or i prefer the .45 because... dont be ignorant read the post before you go bein a smart a$$ and also if you dont have a favorite then u need not reply! why waste your time?

Originally posted by LittleBirdSaid

Originally posted by Shadowalker
There isnt any debate. 9mm for the ladies
.45 for the gents. .40 S&W for the metro gents.

Um - I'm a lady quite comfortable with the 45,
Thank you.
That said I am shopping right now OP so I appreciate your post.
Any gun is only as good as your accuracy, which requires practice and vigilance about safety.
If you can't use the gun in a safe (to you) way - with some measure of accuracy it doesn't matter what you shoot.
The 9mm has the advantage of cost efficiant ammo - which makes this a good purchase for those who need range time, and plenty of it - and most of us do. The 45 is a big, bang fun shoot - but more costly to practice with. I am going to explore the 40, which might be a nice compromise.

edit on 19-7-2011 by LittleBirdSaid because: (no reason given)

well said, let me know what you decide on and mite i recommend range time no matter what you get. It is also very important to get familiar with your firearm of choice just in case it ever comes down to having to use it. well keep us posted as the search continues

Originally posted by schuyler

Originally posted by Lil Drummerboy
a 22 long will go through Kevlar
why the need for anything else?

Because a .22 doesn't make a very big hole. The fact that a .22 can penetrate Kevlar is not really the issue. .45 hollow point expands upon impact and DOES make a very big hole. You can confirm this by looking at gellatin ballistics. You can click on any caliber on that web site to see the results in both penetration and size of the hole. If the object is to stop the threat, a big hole is much more likely to bring about the result you desire. A .22 doesn't even begin to compare with the larger calibers. For paper target shooting, small game hunting, and expense of round, a .22 is great and great fun, but it's not what anyone would want to depend upon to stop a real threat.

I fully understand knockdown power,.
however a good shot in the correct placement will "take down" your target,.
Why do most officers not carry 45's? and besides if you really want to make a hole..
saw off a shotgun put on a pistol grip and use slugs.

Originally posted by mandella1099
A woman in Atlanta recently made a home invader "good" after shooting him seven times with a .22 rimfire handgun - go figure....

haha classic

reply to post by guppy


have to agree there more calibers equals more fun at the range as long as u know which caliber you want when it comes to the real deal and are able to execute with it to save your life, and i agree cant go wrong with the .45 knockdown power

Originally posted by guppy

Originally posted by Miraj
reply to post by JROCK2527

 

Just.. shoot them in the head..

That is a very ignorant statement.

If you shoot them in the head, then you better have a clear explanation to the cops, jury, your peers, and the public.

After you survive your engagement with a criminal, the battle isn't over. You have to worry about what the cops see when they arrive to make their report. Then you have to worry about criminal court. After criminal court, you then have to survive civil court. The family of your opponent may be justified to win against you since you decided to "assassinate" your "victim" because you're a blood thirsty animal who is dangerous to the public. Trust me it has happen.

There is one way you have a chance of not losing in both courts. It is when your target is behind cover and you had no choice but to shoot him in his exposed head. Even then, it is not a guarantee win in both courts.

so true and very well spoken

Originally posted by LittleBirdSaid

Originally posted by Shadowalker
There isnt any debate. 9mm for the ladies
.45 for the gents. .40 S&W for the metro gents.

Um - I'm a lady quite comfortable with the 45,
Thank you.
That said I am shopping right now OP so I appreciate your post.
Any gun is only as good as your accuracy, which requires practice and vigilance about safety.
If you can't use the gun in a safe (to you) way - with some measure of accuracy it doesn't matter what you shoot.
The 9mm has the advantage of cost efficiant ammo - which makes this a good purchase for those who need range time, and plenty of it - and most of us do. The 45 is a big, bang fun shoot - but more costly to practice with. I am going to explore the 40, which might be a nice compromise.

edit on 19-7-2011 by LittleBirdSaid because: (no reason given)

What she said.!!!

To me, the .40 is a good round and price is right between 9MM & 45ACP.

I was going to go for the .357 Sig but even cheap range ammo is hella expensive. So far I have to say that I am completely satisfied with the performance of .40

First of all, "knock down power" is largely a myth. Sorry guys and gals but even 500lb/ft of force is enough to knock a person down. To see the myth disproven you can look up a great experiment on Myth Busters. Even the vaunted 12 gauge barely knocked the target back.

Another way to see the myth debunked is to look at any given boxing or MMA fight. Those guys routinely bunch and kick each other with over 900lb/ft of force. Guys like Chuck Lidell can punch with over 1,200lb/ft of force. How often do those guys hit a person? How often does that person stay on their feet? The 300 or 400lb/ft of force from a bullet is too quickly absorbed by surrounding tissue to knock a person down.

Second, in the real world there is nearly 0% difference between the effectiveness of all three major LEO calibers. In the nearly 60 OIS reports I have read they all perform the same.

I recently read about a guy that was triple tapped in the chest with .45acp. He turned and ran for nearly a mile. He was revived and saved by medics. In another story that was in the news a cop was shot in the face at close range with .45acp. The bullet hit his chin and deflected down. He kept right on fighting untill the atacker stopped attacking.

Then there was the OIS report I read where a single 9mm stopped the attacker dead in his tracks. One 124gr+p 9mm bullet went under his arm. It entered between two ribs. It travelled right to left puncturing both lungs and the heart. Two steps and he fell on his face dead.

When you want to stop a bad guy shot placement is king. If you are carrying .38spl+P or better you should never feel out gunned. People get laid in the ground every day by all kinds of calibers. Practice with what you have untill you are accurate and profecient. Then practice some more. There is no magic caliber.

ETA:

Another story that proves the point that shot placement is king. This comes from the Officer Down Memorial Page. I am not going to link directly because of the anti LEO tendencies of many ATS members.

Corporal Mark Coates was shot and killed after stopping a car for weaving in traffic on I-95 near the Georgia border. During the traffic stop the suspect began to struggle with Corporal Coates and they both fell to the ground. The suspect fired a .22 caliber handgun into Corporal Coates' chest, but the round was stopped by his vest.

Corporal Coates was able to force the man off of him and return fire, striking the suspect five times in the chest with his .357 caliber revolver. As he retreated for cover and to radio for backup, the suspect fired another shot. The round struck Trooper Coates in the left armpit and traveled into his heart. The suspect survived the incident and was sentenced to life in prison.

Originally posted by MikeNice81
First of all, "knock down power" is largely a myth. Sorry guys and gals but even 500lb/ft of force is enough to knock a person down. To see the myth disproven you can look up a great experiment on Myth Busters. Even the vaunted 12 gauge barely knocked the target back.

I believe any caliber, even .22LR, would do as long as you are willing to use it effectively. But, like in my previous post, I'd rather not leave my fate to chance. In combat, you want to stack the odds in your favor as much as possible. That is why I lean on the .45ACP, even tho the 9mm will do. Why? Because based on statistics, 1 - 2 shots is better than 1 - 3 shots. Why leave it to chance? Criminals already have a huge advantage over you. Stack those odds in your favor. But if 9mm is what you prefer, then let it be. I don't believe 1 caliber is the end-all-be-all.

BTW, Mythbusters are truly not the answer to all myths. A lot of their experiments are incomplete nor are they thorough enough to discount what they try to disprove. I can't think of any examples right now. But you can't rely on Mythbusters to prove your point. I never do. Most of their firearm Mythbusting is hogwash. They need multiple firearms experts to help with their episodes.

As for the UFC point, that is a great point. But, IMO, I don't think punches and bullets are comparable.

Originally posted by MikeNice81
Second, in the real world there is nearly 0% difference between the effectiveness of all three major LEO calibers. In the nearly 60 OIS reports I have read they all perform the same.

60 reports? 60 data samples are not enough to prove a theory. Ask any scientist. It is like using Mythbusters to solve your problem. You will need at least 1000 data samples for near real-life statistics.

My uncle's police department used the entire country's police force reports to come to their conclusion. How many data samples? Not a measly 60. But in the thousands. So,...

.45ACP => 1 - 2 shots to knock down opponent
9mm => 1 - 3 shots to knock down opponent

Based on that scientific data, I choose .45 to save my life and my loved ones. But if I only have 9mm, .22LR, or 12-gauge caliber to use at that moment, then I will. And may my aim be true.

reply to post by guppy

60 reports? 60 data samples are not enough to prove a theory. Ask any scientist. It is like using Mythbusters to solve your problem. You will need at least 1000 data samples for near real-life statistics.

I have read 60 personally. My department has studied thousands and taken advice from outside medical sources that reexamined over 500 cases. They are switching back from the .40S&W to the 9mm with 124gr+p ammo. There is simply not enough evidence to prove the difference between the 9mm, .40S&W, and .45acp is worth the extra cost. The determining factor is usually the amount and quality of training an officer has.

I pointed people to Myth Busters for a visual reference. I understand that not all of their experiments are great. I also understand they bring in handgun experts. That is what you did by talking to your uncle. You asked someone you thought was an expert to help with your choice.

Knock down power is a myth. A handgun bullet only damages the tissue it touched directly. Hydrostatic shock and all of thos other fancy terms have been debunked for years. The so called "one shot stop" statistics of Sanow have been proven as garbage science since shortly after they came out.

If somebody says they shoot a .45acp because it is what makes them comfortable, fine. When people start pushing this nonsense that it knocks a man down, or that it magically causes a person to stop in one shot, they are spreading disinformation. When it comes to guns we need to keep the information honest and realistic.

A person should shoot what they can reasonably handle and they are comfortable with. Just remember through clothing the difference between a 147gr Winchester Bonded hp and .45acp Bonded hp is .1" of expansion. The penetration is the same. The wounds are nearly identical. When you switch to the "T" series the 9mm actually penetrates more than the .45acp. When it comes to the bullets that police use there is only a minute difference. For people to insist that .45acp is some how head and shoulders above a 9mm implies a lack of actual research.

reply to post by MikeNice81


Sorry to assume you were only using 60 data samples.

I agree about calibers. I don't think the .45ACP is be-all-end-all caliber. Its whatever you're comfortable shooting with. When advising beginner shooters I suggest they try multiple calibers and multiple handguns to find what is best for he/she.

reply to post by guppy


No need to apologize for that. It was my fault for not being more clear.

I also agree with your advice. A person should try several different guns and caliber's untill they find what is right for them. For me a compact 9mm is the right way to go for a combo hd/cc gun. For others it might be a Kahr .45acp. Which gun or caliber is better is a personal choice. For me I much rather carry a 1911 than a Ruger LCP. I don't feel undergunned with a LCP. I just find a 1911 much more comfortable to shoot. That means more practice time and more profeciency.

In the end I trust any caliber to get the job done. I just have to do my part. I think we are pretty much in agreement. Any caliber will do in a pinch, but carrying what you are comfortable with is most important.

reply to post by MikeNice81


Definitely. When I first went shopping for a handgun, I was lucky enough that my local gunrange allowed you to swap with any handgun they have for rent. As soon as I placed a specific handgun in my hand, I knew this was the one. It felt comfortable and I enjoyed how it shot. The next day, I went and bought my first handgun and never looked back.

As a recap to those looking for advice on which caliber, the best caliber is the largest caliber you can CONTROL. If you have a small body frame, maybe a 9mm is best. What if you can only control .22LR due to some wrist injuries you received during military service. Any caliber will do. As long as you train with it often. Okay. That's enough. You can only beat a bush so much.

What is laughable is Hollywood and the poop they dish out, especially with firearms. Like having a bad@$$ petite girl wielding a .50cal Desert Eagle like its nothing. BS! Or George Clooney spending 75% of a movie talking how he's gonna build a custom super-sniper rifle and turns out to be Ruger Mini-14. Yes, the same Mini-14 the original A-Team TV series used. So many examples, so little time.

so what gun wuld that be? if you dont mind me asking.

Originally posted by JROCK2527
so what gun wuld that be? if you dont mind me asking.

Its the kind that goes BOOM! when I pull the trigger... Sorry, trade secret.

Question to all:

What caliber and bullet size (grain) do you load up with? Do you only buy standard sizes -- 115gr for 9mm and 230gr for .45? Or do you practice with standard loads and use larger bullets and/or +Ps for "combat" use?

On .45s, standard size is big enough for me. But I do get beefier bullets for 9mms, like 124gr or 147gr -- depending on $$$.

reply to post by guppy


With .45 , I stick to 230gr FMJ's & JHP's... I never understood why someone would run 185gr .45 when 180gr .40 out performs it. The reason I use a .45 is because I like a big slow moving round. I practice with Hardball & I run Gold Dot JHP's for social work , or Hornady TAP +p's.

reply to post by guppy


I run 147gr bonded hps in 9mm. I don't see anything wrong with 16" of penetration and .56" expanded diameter. Plus I know if I need to shoot through barriers I can.

Originally posted by EyesWideShut
reply to post by guppy

 

With .45 , I stick to 230gr FMJ's & JHP's... I never understood why someone would run 185gr .45 when 180gr .40 out performs it. The reason I use a .45 is because I like a big slow moving round. I practice with Hardball & I run Gold Dot JHP's for social work , or Hornady TAP +p's.

Interesting point about 185gr .45 vs 180gr .40. I honestly don't know any .45 owners who use 185gr rounds. I'm sure people have their reasons. For .45, I never use +Ps -- just not my thing. But I do use JHP or HPS rounds for "social" work.

Originally posted by MikeNice81
reply to post by guppy

 

I run 147gr bonded hps in 9mm. I don't see anything wrong with 16" of penetration and .56" expanded diameter. Plus I know if I need to shoot through barriers I can.

Nothing wrong indeed. I like keeping my options open and be adaptive. In CQB, there's never a clear set of solutions to handle all situations. Give respect to SWAT and other Building-Entry units. They have it rough.

BTW, have you ever heard of Blended Metal Technology (BMT)? Developed years ago for law enforcement agencies. Problem was BMT was too lethal to be used around civilians. This is not the first video they released, but it does show what BMT can do:

I had never heard of BMT. I am not a big fan of frangible bullets though. A lot of them either don't perform as advertise or work too well. I would be interested in seeing if BMT works any better.

I think my previous comment came across wrong. In my head it sounded more playfully pompus. Rereading it, the tone wasn't there.

Originally posted by MikeNice81
I had never heard of BMT. I am not a big fan of frangible bullets though. A lot of them either don't perform as advertise or work too well. I would be interested in seeing if BMT works any better.

BMT is an interesting concept. Bullets that expand exponentially when they interact with moisture, but stay solid otherwise, is genius/crazy. First I heard about BMT was back in the '05. Who knows how far the company got in developing this technology? That assumes they are still around and got a contract from some agency -- military or law enforcement.

BMT is perfect for assassination. Using bullets that almost guarantee fatality with only 1 bullet is an assassin's wetdream.

Having BMT in the public sector would be too scary. I'm sure a home owner who defends himself with a BMT will probably lose in court. The public may see BMT as they perceived hollow-point bullets back-in-the-day. But many times more lethal. Because the shooter using BMT intends to "kill" his attacker than stopping the attacker. Luckily, today, we don't have to worry about being found guilty of manslaughter using hollow-point bullets. But, it'll be very hard to justify using BMT bullets for home defense.

On the positive side, being armed with 9mm or .45 BMT rounds may help you against bears. I'd like to see how well BMT pistol rounds would do against a bear. Because 9mm and .45 rounds would just piss off the bear.

Originally posted by MikeNice81
I think my previous comment came across wrong. In my head it sounded more playfully pompus. Rereading it, the tone wasn't there.

No worries. I didn't get that impression from your previous post.