Is the Qur'an perfect in the form we see today? If not, are there any lost surahs or ayahs througho

Nothing is perfect.

Nothing is perfect that is translated from the original.

Nothing that is translated can reflect or embody the true, inherent meaning that was intended.

In fact, words themselves cannot 100% hold the true essence or reality of what they are trying to describe, symbolize or express, which is something intangible and ultimately indefinable, because words constrict things and abstract concepts cannot be 100% solidified by taking a true inherent concept and reducing it to a "word." This, in itself, is not absolute, and in part causes the error of interpretation and meaning.

Holy books (ANY) are far from "perfect form" or meaning.

reply to post by Liquesence


I agree, I guess in the end it just comes down to the individual about how they interpret everything. I for one believe that if there were other versions of the Qur'an before the copy we see today, then it just tells us that we humans have been controlled since the beginning of history.

reply to post by redrose123


Commercial religion where we take everything literally is a fools paradise. But true religion that deals with personal growth and speaks via metaphor to spiritually enlighten ourselves is definitely not.

reply to post by isthisreallife


Prophet Muhammad was illiterate he had no idea how to write, however if you say that the modern translation today is man written sure, I agree with you bro, but the truth remains, is there anything that is missing or the true meaning of the text lost throughout the ages? That is my quest to figure out. Cheers.

reply to post by MachiventaMelchizedek


This is very, very interesting. Do you have any more information you can share about lost passages? I have many debates with a friend/coworker of mine who is Muslim (he and I have many colorful debates, but we never get angry at each other...which makes it even more fun ) and I would love to take some of that information to him.

/TOA

Quran in physical only appeared on first time when muhamad stay in cave, first 5 ayat start with iqra.
Later on quran came to him through dream, whisper directly to heart or ear, or direct conversation with djibril.
Whenever he got some ayah, soon he will spread it infront of lots of people that some write it, some listen to it, and some memorized it.

Later in abu bakar era, he start to collecting all the writing, with some advice from people who can memorized it which one to collect. And in uthman era, her rewrited it and compiled it into surah, and put the surah and ayat in order as we can see it today. The writing style is different from now, still simple. Hafidz,people who can memorized all the quran give a good help when this process, and after all finished, uthman burn the rest that already rewriten and compile.

Later on some ulama decided to put different style of writing cuz they are worry people will missinterpret it. The writing style is full of code, the reason for this is to know the exact meaning of each word and to know the meaning from a surah. With all the hafidz descent that they keep the tradition of memorizing quran, they start put this code in new style writing without changing the vowel when it recited.

That code then devided into 6 major study, as sorof, nahu, bayan,mantek, sapiah and al fiah. And to make sure the meaning of quran wont change including for spiritual side, sufi s ulama add the last major study with tasawuf.
This 7 major study and hafidz will ensure that quran will never change, but people with knowledge of all this study will be the one who can examine the test about people who dont believe quran from god and try to make similar ayah or surah with the same quality of quran.

reply to post by Unvarnished


Try here
www.answering-islam.org...

my favourite

goat 1 : allah 0:
Sunan Ibn Majah, Book of Nikah, Hadith # 1934)

Narrated Aisha 'The verse of stoning and of suckling an adult ten times were revealed, and they were (written) on a paper and kept under my bed. When the Messenger of Allah (SAWW.) expired and we were preoccupied with his death, a goat entered and ate away the paper."

Well than means the muslims can chuck this bit out

"Surely, we have revealed this scripture, and surely, we will preserve it." [ 15:9 ]

but the koran is not from any kind of "creator of the universe", in fact mo gives the game away with the alleged science in the koran such as:

Quran 18: 86 Till, when he (the traveller Zul-qarnain) reached the setting-place of the Sun, he found it going down into a muddy spring

Quran 67: 5 And We have (from of old) adorned the lowest heaven (sky) with lamps, and We have made such (Lamps as) missiles to drive away Satans

Quran 31: 10 He hath created the heavens (Skies) without supports (pillars) that ye can see, and hath cast into the earth firm Mountains/Hills, so that it quake not with you

Quran 81: 2 When the stars fall, losing their luster. Quran 15: 19 And the earth We have spread out (like a carpet); set thereon Mountains firm and immovable;

Theres much more but
The above proves the whole thing was written by a man using the “science” of his day to try and back up his story- no "god" would make such mistakes

Originally posted by Kemal
Wow, so much hate and ignorance. Bet you kids haven't even read it.

The holy Qur'an is the word of God, the almighty, the most merciful. There is altered, I think it's complete and the last version of the "Bible". (meaning there will not be another Prophet with a new holy book)

There is only one version of the holy Qur'an, originally in Arabic. Since you can't fully translate Arabic to other languages, there are ifferent versions of translations for each language, I guess.

If you're interested in the Qur'an and its simplified science, then take a look at these sites:

www.speed-light.info...
www.quranandscience.com...

edit on 17-7-2011 by Kemal because: (no reason given)

How can the Qur'an be the word of God when the whole religion was invented by Antichrist? The Roman Catholic Church, the Vatican, the Popes, are Antichrist (watch the video to see for yourself: www.john1429.org... ). You're already showing doubt in your own belief by saying you "think" it's complete, and the last version of the Bible. Read this article to learn how it is indeed an invented tool of the Vatican to be used to force the true children of God either follow her, or be killed: www.remnantofgod.org...

...Beheaded, like the true Word of God says:
Revelation 20:4(KJV)
4And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

That is a future event, which can be proven by the fact that those who do not accept the mark will be beheaded; the mark is yet to be enforced. An interesting study on how the beheadings will happen can be read here: www.remnantofgod.org...

Jesus said, "I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me." John 14:6 (KJV)
The Old Testament and the New Testament are both the two witnesses of Revelation 11. The Old Testament announced His coming, and the New Testament confirmed his arrival (as it says in the following study on the Two Witnesses: www.remnantofgod.org... ).

Jesus also said: "Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."-John 5:39 (KJV)
The Bible testifies in both Testaments that Jesus is the Son of God, the Savior of the world, the one and only Messiah, who was risen from the dead. The Qur'an does no such thing, therefore there is no way it can be the last, and certainly not a complete, version of the Bible. Followers of Islam are always in doubt about their own belief, otherwise they wouldn't "think" the Qur'an is the complete version of anything, they would "know" it. One of Satan's favorite tools is doubt. He used it in the Garden of Eden against Eve, by making her doubt what God had said about the Tree of Knowledge of good and evil, and he certainly uses that same tool today.

The Bible is the true Word of God. To not make it your daily bread is not a good thing.

2 Thessalonians 2:9-12(KJV)
9Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,
10And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
11And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
12That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

reply to post by knidos


Did I talk to you?

@ Jeramie
And no, I will go as far as to say that the Bible is altered and is thus "no more" the word of God. So eh, yeah, don't even come with verses from the Bible. LMFAO. You're talking about the Antichrist? No source except the Qur'an/Islam has so much information and detail about the Antichrist... and you dare to confuse Islam with the Antichrist. LMFAO.


And no, I don't have any doubts in my belief. Don't interpret my "thinking" wrong. I was merely stating that I'm not sure if verses are indeed lost as someone earlier mentioned. Just never heard of that. What I'm sure is that it IS the word of God (convince yourself) and definitely NOT altered. Once Jesus returns, you shall see, but it wil be too late for you.

reply to post by Kemal


If you say :"bet you kids bla bla.." then i have an answering right. No need to be negative..

with blessing

en.wikipedia.org... I'll let you all decide whether there is any validity towards those claims. I don't know enough to say; I don't have anything more to contribute than what you'll find at that link.

If by 'is the qu'ran perfect in the form we see today' do you mean is it the word of God? That I suppose is for each person to decide for themselves, and I won't get into that; that is a personal belief for you.

If by that do you mean have the translations and transmission of the Qu'ran over the centuries been unchanged, that's a different matter. From what I understand, the Qu'ran texts that have been found from earlier times generally agree with the modern version; it has been preserved remarkably well from its ancient form, in no small part probably because Islam strongly condemns the alteration of the Quranic text in any way. I don't know how much it has changed, if any, in the last 1400 years, but it has certainly changed far less than the Bible, for example.

Many of them do change words and whole sentences, just like modern bibles as well. Take for instance:

Sura 37:125 "How can it be that Allah is the best of creators"or
Sura 23:14: Will ye cry unto Baal and forsake the Best of creators,...?

These passage talks about there being more than ONE creator. Or in other words, polytheism. But other versions of the Qur'an change the verse.

The debate on whether or not the Kuran has been changed is a long one. It was revelaed to Muhammed verse by verse over time, rather than a whole book. It was written or memorised. It was only collected and organised to how it is today thanks to the first Caliph Abu Bakr but after a war, many Hafiz (those who have memorised the Kuran) died and so it was decided to write into book form. It all went well until differences were spotted between personal copies. During the second Caliph, Uthman's rule, it was decided to "standardised" the Kuran by taking in personal copies for the "regular" copy. He did threaten people with death if they did not comply.

I'm looking for the site if I can find it whislt typing this up. Found it! Here is the site, which gives some examples:
link

There has been other cases where a governer of Mecca, who was also a tyrant, Hajaaj ibn Yusuf made some changes but to words instead of entire sentences. Another case was during the rule of the Ottoman empire they made some changes to justify their actions.

reply to post by Unvarnished


You may have to check the Vatican vaults my friend. They got ALL the cool stuff there... I wouldnt doubt tho if there was more data subtracted and added like with the rest of the great books to controll the masses under 1 rullers personal influence.

Be well

Leysly Haslton in the link bellow make a lecture about the Koran.
Now she was surprised.
www.ted.com...

reply to post by Unvarnished


Why do so many people all over the internet believe this crap about Islam spreading hate or intolerance. The hate and intolerance are spread by imams in 3rd world countries who use the horror of war that the people have experienced to fuel their rage towards the West over familes and friends lost. So how do you control people to do something radical that you as a leader want to happen? Through emotions, like fear, and hate! The problem is that these leaders, who never seem to be on the front line killing themselves in the name of the religion, use Islam out of context in order to brainwash the poor, non educated people to do their dirty deeds. Now the media, gives these extremists the ability to relay this message to thousands of people left in dismay after the wars who feel this collective hate over losing their loved ones, and thus think irrationally. They lose their sense of person and follow a cause because of the pain they feel, and totally dont realize they are not following the real religion, but a false out of context one explained to them by imams who are evil, and shouldnt be called muslims. I am a muslim , raised my whole life to be peaceful, and calm, and think with a clear mind and to obtain more knowledge. Muslims are told to never trust anything they hear fully, even if from an Imam. It is a duty as a muslim to read more, understand more, by research of scholarly sources and the Quran to make sure nothing is out of context. Problem is the majority of these countries are uneducated so they skip that whole step, and these stupid leaders dont even tell them they are supposed to do that, instead fill them with lies.

Now the other problem is that, the whole point of all of the attacks was to create a hatred towards muslims, so that the western world will fight back again and these idiots can get their stupid holy war that the Majority of muslims dont want. We are too damn busy trying to mantain our daily lives working and school and raising our families, especially in the western world. Do you not think that modern muslims are normal people too? I do the same # as you guys, play video games, watch movies with friends, and all that, yet because I am a muslim and a lot of you idiots out there who are brainwashed by your media think I am a terrorist and im dangerous, whereas I am the type of person to avoid conflict and just wanna have fun, be happy and be peaceful.

I will end with saying this: " Ignorance is bliss, unless you are judgemental."
Make it an effort to open up your mind, dont judge and get the truth, life is bout being peaceful calm and collective and not for hatred, prejudice and injustice. We all must try our best to be better people, whether you are Muslim, Christians, or Jews or whatever, we are all brothers and sisters of humanity.

reply to post by jeramie

How can the Qur'an be the word of God when the whole religion was invented by Antichrist?

First recall what Jesus said in Mark 3:26:
"And if Satan opposes himself and is divided, he cannot stand; his end has come.".

Second, understand that that Islam opposes satan and identifies him as the enemy.

So what is it then...
will you now overlook the words of Jesus(who understood Satan better) and conclude absurdly that Satan actually put out a religon that opposes himself?

Or did Jesus not mean it when he said the words in Mark 3:26?

The Bible testifies in both Testaments that Jesus is the Son of God, the Savior of the world, the one and only Messiah, who was risen from the dead.

Well, the Koran also testifies that Jesus is the messiah and will return at the end of times to slay the anti-christ.
This is what muslims believe, and you not accepting it, will not change the facts.

I saw a film once mentioning that the contents of the Quran were originally written on various items. These were then consolidated into the Quran. There's a group who claims they have sections that were left out. Perhaps that was intentional, or unintentional.

There are those who say that some of the Quran's teachings were misinterpreted, and some only for that time and place.

Sorry guys, but the debate or possibility that the Qur'an has changed over time is entirely null and void.
While the Qur'an was being revealed to the Prophet Muhammed, he would worry very much that he might forget it, so he would hurriedly try to say the verses while they were being revealed so that someone might write them down on paper. Allah revealed to him that the Qur'an would not be forgot by him, and that it would settle in his heart and would never leave him.
Following this, countless numbers of his companions memorized the Qur'an with the greatest degree of perfection. Some people would recite it differently (for example, stretching certain vowels long and the different exit places in the throat and mouth for different letters), but they all had the same Qur'an memorized.
Any claims that the Qur'an was eaten by a goat and so, such verses were lost, is of no evidence, because the companions had the entire thing memorized. And for anyone who questions the thought of them memorizing over 6000 verses - millions of people across the globe have done this, myself included.
At the time of Abu Bakr, when the issue of compiling the Qur'an was brought up, it was not that the Qur'an had different versions, but rather a concern was growing that the people who had memorized the entire Qur'an were making up a large number of martyrs, and this might result in parts of the Qur'an being lost. The Qur'an was then carefully compiled, including both memorized verses and verses which had been written on animal hide, etc.
During the caliphate of Uthman, the people of different localities, such as Iraq, Syria, Egypt, and Yemen had produced a different style of reading the Qur'an and incorporated their local dialect. Because that these new forms had discrepancies in them when compared to the original revelation, they were burnt, and destroyed, to ensure uniformity in all the Qur'ans.

Recently, from some European source - I believe it may have been a university, though I will double check - all the Bibles in the world were gathered to study the different versions that had accumulated. A vast number (in the thousands) of different versions, with both minor changes in words, sentances, as well as major contradictions were found. This inspired scholars and doctors - in Egypt, i believe - to perform a similar gathering. The only difference found was in recitation style, as well as minor calligraphy mistakes.

So that is - yes, the Qur'an you find today, is the same on as was revealed to the Prophet Muhammed, some 14 centuries ago.